Soft shackles and kinetic ropes

[Mieser]

If it matters at all, the Bronco-side bumper clevis mount broke before the Jeep side soft shackle did… clevis sheared off from the impact of the very hefty pull (which by the way threw everything in the Bronco around and knocked the occupants off balance). When the Clevis sheared, it jammed into the bumpers outer shell, trying to pull it off and twisting the bumper in the process. Only the massive, grade 8 bolts still in the Clevis, prevented it from flying out and going into the Jeep. Of course once the bumper stopped giving, all the force went to the Jeep side and the soft shackle was up to bat and failed.

So, for an idea of how hard that pull was: it sheared a Clevis bolted into steel, pulled the two bolts out of the threads they were bolted too, twisted the frame horn and twisted a bumper. Then after all that carnage, had enough force left to rip the soft shackle at the loop around the knot and sent the kinetic flying back into the Bronco, through the windshield and kept going behind the Bronco. So much force I have no doubt a simple blanket would have helped in the least bit. I have never seen that kind of force from even videos.

Not saying the setup was right. But something has to be said for how hard that pull was.

Does anyone have any better pics of how these recovery points were mounted? To me, it looks like the big steel 'D-ring' mount was only mounted to a bent tab of 3/16-1/4" thick material? It looks like that is what failed....right at a 90 bend.....

A great reminder to be very cautious of what you are hooking to. When in doubt, connect to both recovery points with a bridle.

 

[aczlan]

Does anyone have any better pics of how these recovery points where mounted? To me, it looks like the big steel 'D-ring' mount was only mounted to a bent tab of 3/16-1/4" thick material? It looks like that is what failed....right at a 90 bend.....

A great reminder to be very cautious of what you are hooking to. When in doubt, connect to both recovery points with a bridle.

And if it moves, stop and reassess before it starts trying to fly.

Aaron Z

 

[Mieser]

And if it moves, stop and reassess before it starts trying to fly.

Aaron Z

Agree, I carry a shovel for a reason. When in doubt, use more shovel!

 

[welndmn]

clevis mount broke before the Jeep side soft shackle did… clevis sheared off from the impact of the very hefty pull

The clevis sheared off from what, that bumper, or do you mean it tore?

 

[Beat95yj]

A 1985 issue of FOURWHEELER mag taught me to open the hood when you winch or get pulled out of being stuck if you plan on being behind the wheel.

Has the offroad world stop teaching that?

Sometimes you need to see where you are going, and it is not feasible to have your hood up.

 

[KacksterK5]

Sometimes you need to see where you are going, and it is not feasible to have your hood up.

You just have your friend stand next to the hood and shut it real fast after you start moving. Duh.

 

[white-rhino]

You just have your friend stand next to the hood and shut it real fast after you start moving. Duh.

So you are protected by the hood while your friend stands next to it in the open?

 

[Slander]

So you are protected by the hood while your friend stands next to it in the open?

I mean someone's gotta hold it up!!

 

[gt1guy]

There's always one guy in a group nobody likes.

 

[Sean]

Sometimes you need to see where you are going, and it is not feasible to have your hood up.

I can usually see under my hood when it's up....though I agree, a lot of times you can't see well enough to drive and winch. In the cases where i've done this, I was winching someone else out, put up the hood, looked under it for signals from those outside the stuck vehicle. Also, driving with the hood up isn't ideal either especially in rough terrain.

 

[ApeEater]

Just some quick calculations. It doesn't take much speed at all to get the force up there pretty high.

pounds	mph	FT/LB
2000​	5​	1671​
2000​	6​	2406​
2000​	7​	3275​
4000​	5​	3342​
2000​	8​	4278​
4000​	6​	4813​
6000​	5​	5013​
2000​	9​	5415​
4000​	7​	6551​
2000​	10​	6685​
6000​	6​	7219​
4000​	8​	8556​
6000​	7​	9826​
4000​	9​	10829​
6000​	8​	12835​
4000​	10​	13369​
6000​	9​	16244​
6000​	10​	20054​

 

[ridered3]

Just some quick calculations. It doesn't take much speed at all to get the force up there pretty high.

pounds	mph	FT/LB
2000​	5​	1671​
2000​	6​	2406​
2000​	7​	3275​
4000​	5​	3342​
2000​	8​	4278​
4000​	6​	4813​
6000​	5​	5013​
2000​	9​	5415​
4000​	7​	6551​
2000​	10​	6685​
6000​	6​	7219​
4000​	8​	8556​
6000​	7​	9826​
4000​	9​	10829​
6000​	8​	12835​
4000​	10​	13369​
6000​	9​	16244​
6000​	10​	20054​

So according to that math, hitting it from the parking lot isn't the best option for kinetic/strap recoveries???

 

[Mieser]

Sometimes you need to see where you are going, and it is not feasible to have your hood up.

Maybe we need to bring back those Lexan hoods and make them extra thick.

 

[aczlan]

The clevis sheared off from what, that bumper, or do you mean it tore?

Looking at the pictures from post 75: Soft shackles and kinetic ropes
It looks like the mount started tearing behind the bumper:

(Arrow points to the front of the vehicle)

Aaron Z

 

[paulhead]

Never liked the idea behind a "kinetic" rope. A strong yank? That sounds like an accident waiting to happen. I could easily see a vehicle building up momentum to pull overload a soft shackle or a weak tow point. Old fashioned slow winching for me, more controlled.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Looking at the pictures from post 75: Soft shackles and kinetic ropes
It looks like the mount started tearing behind the bumper:

(Arrow points to the front of the vehicle)

Aaron Z

I think that's just the bumper coming apart, not the shackle mount.

Never liked the idea behind a "kinetic" rope. A strong yank? That sounds like an accident waiting to happen. I could easily see a vehicle building up momentum to pull overload a soft shackle or a weak tow point. Old fashioned slow winching for me, more controlled.

That's the thing about the kinetic ropes. They're way softer on everything than a much lighter bump with an old school strap.

 

[blakes]

Has no one else been on the receiving end of a Bubba rope in very deep snow and ducked down a bit hoping it would be enough if shit broke?

 

[JR4X]

Never liked the idea behind a "kinetic" rope. A strong yank? That sounds like an accident waiting to happen. I could easily see a vehicle building up momentum to pull overload a soft shackle or a weak tow point. Old fashioned slow winching for me, more controlled.

You are making some wild assumptions. What is stuck? What kind of ground are you going to be on when you are in reach of it? You have a very narrow pre conceived notion of what or when you’re recovering.

I can give you a hundred examples where there is absolutely no good options, only less bad options. One of those scenarios the ground the vehicle that can still move is on, is going away and if you don’t get the extraction completed in one or two moves you are about to have two or three vehicles stuck.

I successfully recover 22,000 + pound vehicles buried to the nuts in mud with a 10,000 pound truck. You think you could do that with a winch on your little rock crawler? No, you need a way to make that 10,000 pound truck weigh 30,000 + pounds on the end of that tow rope to have a chance of getting it free’d. And you’ve only got one or two shots before everything is stuck. I’ve never used a bubba anything, we use something else.

 

[M92PV4U]

Has no one else been on the receiving end of a Bubba rope in very deep snow and ducked down a bit hoping it would be enough if shit broke?

No we used chains in deep mud.

 

[Clb]

I cringe at most extrications for one reason or another.
Some guys should have stayed home

I've not used one in mud yet ... ( much stickier) but a well executed tug from a kinetic really is much gentler with
(And , imho) better results than a strap.
Now my personal favorite
A recovery rig that weights in @ 1.5+ the stuck vehicles weight.
Just snug up n pull...
Yes it's not allways that easy.

 

[Sean]

You are making some wild assumptions. What is stuck? What kind of ground are you going to be on when you are in reach of it? You have a very narrow pre conceived notion of what or when you’re recovering.

I can give you a hundred examples where there is absolutely no good options, only less bad options. One of those scenarios the ground the vehicle that can still move is on, is going away and if you don’t get the extraction completed in one or two moves you are about to have two or three vehicles stuck.

I successfully recover 22,000 + pound vehicles buried to the nuts in mud with a 10,000 pound truck. You think you could do that with a winch on your little rock crawler? No, you need a way to make that 10,000 pound truck weigh 30,000 + pounds on the end of that tow rope to have a chance of getting it free’d. And you’ve only got one or two shots before everything is stuck. I’ve never used a bubba anything, we use something else.

I was up in Big Bear on John Bull back in like 2008 or so in my 4K lb buggy. Was with a big group of Hummers I'd happened to be invited to join. One of them broke their steering on the gatekeeper and I was a couple of vehicles in front up the trail. Group of fullsize Chevys were behind us and super nice in person....found out later they were all talking shit online the next day or so about how shitty Hummers are and how I should have turned around and come down to winch the broken vehicle in the middle of a boulder patch out of the trail (when I was already having a fair amount of difficulty winching a much lighter H3 that also broke its steering farther up the trail at the time anyway).

I feel like there are a LOT of people who don't understand physics or winches.

 

[arse_sidewards]

I feel like there are a LOT of people who don't understand physics or winches.

More or less than the number trying to apply dry rock physics to mud?

 

[white-rhino]

RE Bubba vs recovery Strap, I prefer a strap. I find ropes too spongy (is that a word?) to get a feel for the pull. I find with a strap I get a better feel for how hard of a pull is needed. That’s just me. 🤷‍♂️

 

[JR4X]

In the oilfield stuff, we don’t use soft shackles at all. Just real iron clevis’s on solid attachment points. I’m used to calling them “snatch straps”. The word kinetic is very new to old product.

On the racing stuff, I only use soft shackles. I have 4 or 6 on the car and they go around tube only. I don’t spend one fraction of a second thinking about where the knot is. At KOH most the recovery points are the open end loop of a strap hooked to a recovery vehicle. I can do lots of cool stuff quickly with a strap and a couple of soft shackles to get something solid to hook my winch rope to.

 

[Sean]

More or less than the number trying to apply dry rock physics to mud?

Meh...the same?

 

[Etyler2]

Has no one else been on the receiving end of a Bubba rope in very deep snow and ducked down a bit hoping it would be enough if shit broke?

We all will now!

That looked like a hell of a run from the potato drone footage.

I got mine for soft bumps when necessary, and will work amazing on a flat dead tow off the trail. No more teeth breaking slams.

 

[Sean]

In the oilfield stuff, we don’t use soft shackles at all. Just real iron clevis’s on solid attachment points. I’m used to calling them “snatch straps”. The word kinetic is very new to old product.

On the racing stuff, I only use soft shackles. I have 4 or 6 on the car and they go around tube only. I don’t spend one fraction of a second thinking about where the knot is. At KOH most the recovery points are the open end loop of a strap hooked to a recovery vehicle. I can do lots of cool stuff quickly with a strap and a couple of soft shackles to get something solid to hook my winch rope to.

IMO, that's really what soft shackles are for...wrapping around a tube on a cage/chassis.

 

[JR4X]

RE Bubba vs recovery Strap, I prefer a strap. I find ropes too spongy (is that a word?) to get a feel for the pull. I find with a strap I get a better feel for how hard of a pull is needed. That’s just me. 🤷‍♂️

I have a 1 1/4” snatch rope that’s definitely a weird feeling for both the tower and towed. I swear I can stretch it 10 extra feet. When the stuck vehicle comes free, it is accelerated by the rope returning to its desired length. For the tower, it never feels like you hit it hard. You just decel almost to a stop then like a sling shot here comes what you yanked on.

I’m liking these big rhino straps. I’ve used 2 20K’s in tandem for many years. These big rhinos are rated at 31K and I only have to use one. Rhino USA 30' Tow Strap & Shackle Hitch Receiver Combo

 

[aczlan]

I think that's just the bumper coming apart, not the shackle mount.

Nope, that's where the shackle mount attaches to the bumper. It's failed, but the soft shackle failed before the clevis and it's mount went flying (possibly ONLY because the bolt that held the clevis mount got stuck on the slot in the bumper).

Inside:

Outside 1 (note the outward bend in the bumper from the bolts):

Outside 2:

The post from popo_patty says as much (see the bold part):

If it matters at all, the Bronco-side bumper clevis mount broke before the Jeep side soft shackle did… clevis sheared off from the impact of the very hefty pull (which by the way threw everything in the Bronco around and knocked the occupants off balance). When the Clevis sheared, it jammed into the bumpers outer shell, trying to pull it off and twisting the bumper in the process. Only the massive, grade 8 bolts still in the Clevis, prevented it from flying out and going into the Jeep. Of course once the bumper stopped giving, all the force went to the Jeep side and the soft shackle was up to bat and failed.

So, for an idea of how hard that pull was: it sheared a Clevis bolted into steel, pulled the two bolts out of the threads they were bolted too, twisted the frame horn and twisted a bumper. Then after all that carnage, had enough force left to rip the soft shackle at the loop around the knot and sent the kinetic flying back into the Bronco, through the windshield and kept going behind the Bronco. So much force I have no doubt a simple blanket would have helped in the least bit. I have never seen that kind of force from even videos.

Not saying the setup was right. But something has to be said for how hard that pull was.

Aaron Z

 

[paulhead]

You are making some wild assumptions. What is stuck? What kind of ground are you going to be on when you are in reach of it? You have a very narrow pre conceived notion of what or when you’re recovering.

I can give you a hundred examples where there is absolutely no good options, only less bad options. One of those scenarios the ground the vehicle that can still move is on, is going away and if you don’t get the extraction completed in one or two moves you are about to have two or three vehicles stuck.

I successfully recover 22,000 + pound vehicles buried to the nuts in mud with a 10,000 pound truck. You think you could do that with a winch on your little rock crawler? No, you need a way to make that 10,000 pound truck weigh 30,000 + pounds on the end of that tow rope to have a chance of getting it free’d. And you’ve only got one or two shots before everything is stuck. I’ve never used a bubba anything, we use something else.

I'm not making wild assumptions just my opinion. The above post makes my point. So my little rock crawler is gonna get that big rig out of the mud with a kinetic rope? Of course not. If it worked for you and you know yours and the tow points limitations power to you. But how many times are you gonna lunge a vehicle forward until you rip the bumper off , as in this case, dude's lucky that bolt prevented the shackle from being a missile. My point is a slow controlled pull you would have heard metal popping before launching that shackle, if you were lucky. You guys keep your rubber bands, I know what works for me and the wheeling I do. I've seen too many instances of these being used wrong or unsafely.