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Skittles aka: Timber Tiger

They could have changed their stance on that. Apparently it’s ok to heat the Cs with charcoal now according to them. Since they can’t keep their story straight I’d weld both sides.
 
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Could you weld the inside, let the whole thing cool, then apply local heat to the outside and weld the outside? Wouldn't that negate the knuckle contracting and keep from stressing it?
 
Made some adjustable stands to help with the ram placement and whatever else. Not sure why I haven’t made these before:homer:


If you look in the background you can also see one of the two axle stabilizers. They are not adjustable but help keep the housing in place.

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Started working on the ram placement. Had to get into the truss and just a touch of the housing. Not sure if this is the final resting place, but it’s close.

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I was wondering if I was off by trying to set the ram so the tie rods were straight at half steer rather than straight when tires were straight and way more angled when full lock.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
I was wondering if I was off by trying to set the ram so the tie rods were straight at half steer rather than straight when tires were straight and way more angled when full lock.
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Tie rods have the most force on them when the tires are turned the most. At that point is when you want your tie rods as straight as possible.
 
Mr Stubs said:
Tie rods have the most force on them when the tires are turned the most. At that point is when you want your tie rods as straight as possible.
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I'd say the force on them is going to totally depend on the situation. But more or less, I agree. It drives me nut when people have the tie rods already angled back when the wheels are straight. *cough* artec *cough*
 
Looking good. I like the stands and the DOM over the ram acting as tire rods too! I'm about to start on my ram placement and will use that!!
 
Mr Stubs said:
Tie rods have the most force on them when the tires are turned the most. At that point is when you want your tie rods as straight as possible.
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YotaAtieToo said:
I'd say the force on them is going to totally depend on the situation. But more or less, I agree. It drives me nut when people have the tie rods already angled back when the wheels are straight. *cough* artec *cough*
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Mr Stubs said:
Depending on situation yes, but the time it really matters is when your rig is vertical and all the weight is on the rear tires and they are turned full lock.
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I've though about this a bit in the past, and I don't agree with the "conventional wisdom" that your tie rods should be straight at full lock. Assuming your ram is limiting the steering angle (i.e. not trying to bend the housing), then I don't see a strong argument for there being more stress on the tie rods at full lock vs. any other steering angle. I have frequently seen people with their steering completely bound up with their wheels pointed relatively straight.

My thinking is that you should minimize the maximum tie rod angle by having the ram positioned such that it is half way between the distance of the tie rod at full lock (closest to the axle) and straight ahead (or wherever the tie rod is furthest from the axle). This should give you the best "average" tie rod strength throughout the steering range and minimize the knuckles turning at funky rates due to the change in tie rod angle. Compared to a conventional tie rod, a DE ram tie rod setup changes length so to speak throughout the steering sweep, and is something I would think should be minimized, although for a crawler, it probably doesn't have any appreciable effect.
 
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My intuition says that you want to minimize the maximum tie rod angle so that you reduce the maximum bending force on the ram and make the relationship between ram travel and knuckle angle as linear as possible.
 
Its not so that there is less tress on the tire rod itself. Its so that when a double ended ram is fully extended (which is when the seals and shaft are most susceptible to damage) the force is straight in line with the ram. If the tire rod is at an angle it will side load the ram itself which it was not intended for. Side loading can damage the seals or in extreme cases bend the shaft. The rams are better equipped to handle side loads in the neutral/ centered position than fully extended.

You are absolutely correct that it will see force in all positions. But keeping the tire rods in line with the ram when the ram is fully extend (front to back and up and down) will give the ram the best chance to survive when it is at its most venerable.
 
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Blase said:
Its not so that there is less tress on the tire rod itself. Its so that when a double ended ram is fully extended (which is when the seals and shaft are most susceptible to damage) the force is straight in line with the ram. If the tire rod is at an angle it will side load the ram itself which it was not intended for. Side loading can damage the seals or in extreme cases bend the shaft. The rams are better equipped to handle side loads in the neutral/ centered position than fully extended.

You are absolutely correct that it will see force in all positions. But keeping the tire rods in line with the ram when the ram is fully extend (front to back and up and down) will give the ram the best chance to survive when it is at its most venerable.
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Well said. My concern was always being full lock, and hitting something. Sharper the angle of the tie rod in relation to the cylinder the more likely you are to bend a rod. I can't imagine anything happening while just crawling, as long as the body is protected well a small dent in the body can be pretty catastrophic.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Well said. My concern was always being full lock, and hitting something. Sharper the angle of the tie rod in relation to the cylinder the more likely you are to bend a rod. I can't imagine anything happening while just crawling, as long as the body is protected well a small dent in the body can be pretty catastrophic.
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I Isn’t that the point of the skid?

I used to overthink as much as you, but I never got much done and that’s no fun...:flipoff2::flipoff2:
 
Blase said:
Its not so that there is less tress on the tire rod itself. Its so that when a double ended ram is fully extended (which is when the seals and shaft are most susceptible to damage) the force is straight in line with the ram. If the tire rod is at an angle it will side load the ram itself which it was not intended for. Side loading can damage the seals or in extreme cases bend the shaft. The rams are better equipped to handle side loads in the neutral/ centered position than fully extended.
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100% spot on
im surprised most in this thread didnt already know this :flipoff2:
 
Mr Stubs said:
I Isn’t that the point of the skid?

I used to overthink as much as you, but I never got much done and that’s no fun...:flipoff2::flipoff2:
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Yes, I've seen some minimal skids on crawlers, good for weight, but risky imo.

I wouldn't even call this over thinking. You obviously think tie rod alignment is important, otherwise you wouldn't have carved away at the upper link mount. :flipoff2:
 
That cylinder position looks as good as its going to get. Its up high and in line with the high steer. Its as close to the pumpkin as possible. I would weld it out and move onto the next thing.
The 3" cylinder without notches needs at least 4 clamps. You can jam two of the clamps up against the welded fittings 1st choice or use end tabs on the cylinder caps 2nd choice because the cylinder will have to slip fit in and that slip fit will allow the cylinder to flex the clamps until it makes up the gap. The 1/2" socket head screws cant get enough force to hold everything tight if you really load that cylinder up with weight. I feel like there used to be a lot of pictures of clamps ripped off of cylinders about 10-15 years ago.
 
HYDRODYNAMIC said:
That cylinder position looks as good as its going to get. Its up high and in line with the high steer. Its as close to the pumpkin as possible. I would weld it out and move onto the next thing.
The 3" cylinder without notches needs at least 4 clamps. You can jam two of the clamps up against the welded fittings 1st choice or use end tabs on the cylinder caps 2nd choice because the cylinder will have to slip fit in and that slip fit will allow the cylinder to flex the clamps until it makes up the gap. The 1/2" socket head screws cant get enough force to hold everything tight if you really load that cylinder up with weight. I feel like there used to be a lot of pictures of clamps ripped off of cylinders about 10-15 years ago.
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Plan is to run two clamps, one on each end. The ram will drop down into a holding trough. Here is a example pic.

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Mr Stubs said:
Plan is to run two clamps, one on each end. The ram will drop down into a holding trough. Here is a example pic.
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At least that one does not have the lower aluminum clamp portion which can rock side to side as the bolt stretches.
I still do not like the idea that the cylinder can shift side to side under the aluminum clamps as it hits one end stop then the other.
The cradle protects from a hit on the cylinder body but if you land on a tie rod it can pop one of the 1/2" bolts and then the ram can jump out of the cradle.
No one has probably had any issues with running the cylinders clamped this way. But I do know that two clamps alone is not enough to hold a 3" cylinder in place if you fully load it up.

If your bracket/trough does not use the bottom aluminum clamp portion you can use that instead of the top aluminum strap. This will allow for a more rigid clamp and a standard cap head screw and washer so you can torque it down better. I ran four bottom clamps drilled out to 5/8" to make it more rigid.
 
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Mr Stubs said:
That looks like one of Jesse Haines portal axle setups. He has a interesting way of doing his bolt on clamp system. I don’t want to machine down my rams though.
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that is from the lasernut car. the ram isnt machined
 
Mr. Stubs the rings on each end is machined to fit the ram v/s machining the ram to fit the rings if that makes sense. I took mine a step farther and made the ring deeper. I then machined a notch into the ring that the fitting slides into. This way it can't move side to side at all or turn. Overkill for sure...but I wanted a little extra insurance since i'm no engineer.

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Blase said:
Mr. Stubs the rings on each end is machined to fit the ram v/s machining the ram to fit the rings if that makes sense. I took mine a step farther and made the ring deeper. I then machined a notch into the ring that the fitting slides into. This way it can't move side to side at all or turn. Overkill for sure...but I wanted a little extra insurance since i'm no engineer.
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that's pretty dang slick
 
Just read through all 16 pages, enjoyed the tech info with the build updates along the way. Nice work on the rig too. :smokin:

What size ori's do you run?

And you mentioned you were actually considering a wider WMS, what widths would you pick if you were to do it all over?
 
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