Side Charging ARish

[Provience]

Eye R gunsmythe

Specs:
https://www.righttobear.com/ blem 80% lower I hogged out to fit
RTB dedicated 22LR bolt/carrier and dedicated 9" barrel
RTB 25 round magazines
I don't remember where i got the lower spring part, but it was any of the ~$30 ones
free 3 piece 'mil-spec' trigger from a buddy
Aero Precision Slick Side upper, no dust cover
plastic buffer tube that was free with purchase of something else
Discount bin 7" handguard, no holes

scored this smooth handguard for $35 because it was blue and i'm pretty stoked about it. being smooth, it gives me the option to make it not a muffler to go with my not an assault rifle

barrel fits with the alignment pin into the upper, of note is that the 22lr barrel doesn't have a hole for a gas tube and use a 1:16 twist and has a proper lockup as opposed to the conversion stuff to use .223 barrels

installed, hand tight, it will get good enough tightened down later, probably.

self contained blowback bolt group, nice Stainless Steel unit

Bolt Carrier Group in the upper, you can see how the barrel comes back in to provide proper lockup

 

[Provience]

1-3/4" of travel, this will be important later as i'm going to mill a slot into the side of the upper so that i can make this have a left hand side charging handle similar to a STEN where, hopefully, the handle will stay there when it is all together, and when you pop the top from the bottom, you can back up the BCG enough to remove the charging handle before sliding everything out the back



3 piece trigger vs a drop in trigger



3 piece installed, nice thing about the 3 piece trigger for a home made receiver is that they allow for a ton of error in the tolerance, they are very accommodating. Drop in triggers need enough material removed for the whole box, better to remove more material whenever possible



cheap plastic grip holds the spring and detent for the safety selector lever. this high quality blem lower will need to have this hole drilled a touch deeper as it lets the lever wiggle more than it needs to.

.

1/8" roll pin punch helps to install all the little doo-dads that hold things like the trigger guard in place

 

[Provience]

bolt release is probably the most difficult thing to get in there. i ended up using my feet to hold the receiver, one hand to hold the roll pin, one hand to hold the punch and another two hands to gently use the hammer to it all lined up and set. a vise or a child or a spouse helps

the detent and spring for the rear takedown are typically held in by a plate and nut that secure the buffer tube. because this is all self contained, i don't want the buffer tube so i'm still thinking of what kind of contraption will go here. might just use a tap and screw to holt the spring

used some hex stock aluminium to make a charging handle, had to step it down a few time, cut an ovalish shoulder so that it kind of stays put, put 8-32 threads on the end, left the full size about 2 fingers long

and made a little grabber thingy. took several test fits and small cuts to get it to fit properly

3/16" hole and 3/16" slot, if i ever do this again, i'll go with 1/4" slot to make life easier. my drill ended up walking a bit, so instead of starting over, i just went to a 0.201" hole, so it fits a little loose, but functions

 

[Provience]

rear view, it'd be nice to make these out of brass next time now that i know it works. picked up the pistol hex cap cover thing from brownells and about the cheapest "red dot" off amazon

side view, ready to go shoot some cans

 

[FrankenToy]

Nice build. Interested to know if the cases eject properly with no charging handle. My dedicated .22lr upper needs a "special" charging handle (solid plastic and doesn't have a deep channel to prevent cases from getting jammed upwards. Mil-spec CH causes me more problems than I care to say). Let us know, please.

 

[Provience]

Nice build. Interested to know if the cases eject properly with no charging handle. My dedicated .22lr upper needs a "special" charging handle (solid plastic and doesn't have a deep channel to prevent cases from getting jammed upwards. Mil-spec CH causes me more problems than I care to say). Let us know, please.

will do and thanks. I tried to make my block long enough that the bolt doesn't ever go beyond it, but do to the winging it nature of design I ended up just a little bit short. it should be long enough that it won't rock down and jam up the bolt, hence the taper on the end. i'm not sure if regular CCI 22lr will even use the full spring travel, but I figured i'd try out some of that plus some of the higher velocity rounds I've got kicking around to see if one cycles better than the other.

for some strange reason the block hangs up just a touch in the upper rec right at the line the rec switches from ~0.480 slot to 1/2" pocket at the nose, i'm hoping it is enough to keep my block from trying to cycle with the bolt. if not, I actually just had to take apart a bunch of detent balls so i'll add one of those to sort of keep it locked up front

 

[Aisin]

Nice. Been thinking about putting one of these together. I cannot shoot anymore .223/5.56.

 

[Provience]

Nice. Been thinking about putting one of these together. I cannot shoot anymore .223/5.56.

my 6.5 Grendel is the only thing I care to shoot beyond 100 yards with, I just don't want to walk that far or find that much space very often

edit: as for this being a dedicated blowback 22, i'm hoping the faster twist and tighter barrel will make for somewhat better performance and life out of it. one of my buddies suggested setting it up with a single point sling off the back and that should offer plenty of support as it is fairly weight forward as it sits for much comfortable one handed firing

 

[PAE]

Provience : How much do you know about what you are playing with there ?

 

[Provience]

Provience : How much do you know about what you are playing with there ?

I know that it is a semi-automatic home built pistol per the state of Washington, where my abode is located and I am considered a resident for legal but not tax purposes.

the thing I haven't dug too deeply into, and may never, is about at what point and open ended handguard stuffed with high temp fiberglass for heat control coupled with a barrel ported for velocity control "becomes" a noise suppressor, despite that not being the intended purpose. I just don't want to burn my hand or a sand bag due to gas venting.

edit: I am a CA resident for tax and voting purposes, this firearm has never had a buffer tube or stock installed on it and never will. as such, barrel length is of no concern and WA does not (yet) use the abusive "magazine must be in grip" definition for semi-auto pistol definition.

 

[PAE]

I usually wouldnt link to a "arfcom" thread but the knoledge you may gain in the thread linked below could save you some time in club fed.

That is if you are smart enough to realise what guy you have in your pics is both illegal on a statenof Washington and federal level.

With the application of the full auto parts and or andn with both the lower receiver and posession of the full auto parts you have created a situation known as Constructive possession.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/hometown...te-/15-631846/

 

[Aisin]

You win in the ugliest hand guard category.

 

[Provience]

I usually wouldnt link to a "arfcom" thread but the knoledge you may gain in the thread linked below could save you some time in club fed.

That is if you are smart enough to realise what guy you have in your pics is both illegal on a statenof Washington and federal level.

With the application of the full auto parts and or andn with both the lower receiver and posession of the full auto parts you have created a situation known as Constructive possession.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/hometown...te-/15-631846/

oh, that well, i guess i don't know what i have then. that will be remedied.

edit: and at least the vice and a big hammer made things quick and easy to destroy. thanks

edit2: weird, as far as i can remember it has just been in a bag of parts. i've been buying small/cheap parts over the last few years as i happen to see sales and such without much thought for both this thing and my ar rifle. for some reason i still have a few little bits and such rolling around. pawn shop, gun shops, online places, i dunno. never knew it was a thing, especially something that would end up somewhere in a cheap bag of parts

 

[Provience]

You win in the ugliest hand guard category.

it was cheaper because it was blue the store also had a black one, but he said 5% off for the blue, so blue is what i gots

 

[PAE]

I thought you might not have known thats why i mentioned it keep your pesky butt out of the hoosegow.

 

[Provience]

I thought you might not have known thats why i mentioned it keep your pesky butt out of the hoosegow.

yeah thanks. i was confused by the question at first I know it can't be built as is in CA and that it can't flipflop from rifle to pistol and that there are length rules that come in to play. fuck me running, hadn't considered that a damn hammer could be an issue without the auto sear or the mounting provisions for one or the clearance in the lower for one. Hell, i didn't even know there was an OPTION for the hammer to be one way or another

I guess somebody must have taken "mil-spec" a little too seriously

https://blog.roninsgrips.com/atf-let...ers-need-know/

i'm doing some reading while price shopping cheap FCG's, does the ATF have a published archive of all their letters?

 

[Provience]

alright, here is the law as written and published.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...-4pdf/download

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...tf-p-5300-4pdf

ATF P-5300-4, current version 2005

Page 155: Information concerning AR-15 type rifles

ATF has encountered various AR-15 type assault rifles such as those manufactured by Colt, E.A. Company, SGW, Sendra and others, which have been assembled with fire control components designed for use in M16 machineguns. The vast majority of these rifles which have been assembled with an M16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector will fire automatically merely by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector. Many of these rifles using less than the 5 M16 parts listed above also will shoot automatically by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector.

Any weapon which shoots automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger, is a machinegun as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), the National Firearms Act (NFA). The definition of a machinegun also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person. An AR-15 type assault rifle which fires more than 1 shot by a single function of the trigger is a machinegun under the NFA. Any machinegun is subject to the NFA and the possession of an unregistered machinegun could subject the possessor to criminal prosecution.

...stupid safe handling information removed...

In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.

It is important to note that any modification of the M16 parts should be attempted by fully qualified personnel only.

Should you have any questions concerning AR-15 type rifles with M16 parts, please contact your nearest ATF office. A list of ATF field offices is on page 198 of this publication.

i gave up on looking for letters and opinions and, after reading several forums that echo'd what PAE posted, found the actual black and white from the ATF. Note the use of the word "should" as highlighted in green. Any combination of M16 internal components SHOULD be removed from an AR15, which is the exact same as the work SHOULD be done by a fully qualified professional. Welp, i'm surely not a FQP and am perfectly legal to take my own stuff apart. apparently i was perfectly legal to use the M16 hammer/disconnector provided it was never modified by removing the disco or modifying the selector lever, assuming either of those actions would result in automatic fire.

oh well, live and learn, and then get luvs. guess it makes more sense to me know how those would have ended up in a rando cheapo pile o' parts

 

[PAE]

Keep in mind some of what you read may say should but they enforce something alot more harshly.

I put out about 50K back in 1980's to keep my ass out of that hoosegow I mentioned, its not BATFE I had to deal with it was California DOJ, while they are pussies when they deal with you one on one, they dont come to your house one on one, they come at 4am with a busload of DOJ agent assholes.

Seriously do not have those parts, toss them in a deep lake or destroy them.

Remember the thread on p4x4 about calif doj going to reno gun shows to get guys bringing back 20 and 30 rnd mags.


This is another thing they will hunt someone down for.

 

[Provience]

Keep in mind some of what you read may say should but they enforce something alot more harshly.

their admission that several MFG's offered and sold semi-auto AR-15's using the "M16" style fire control groups clearly demonstrates that none of those parts are "designed solely and exclusively for machineguns" and the ATF also specifies the 5 parts together, potentially fewer without saying which, may result in automatic fire if either installed negligently or used negligently and would then be illegal.

i'm not saying that i will specifically look for an M16 style hammer/trigger/disconnect again or to replace in this firearm, but it isn't something i'll avoid in the future if i come across a cheap one.

drop in auto sear or auto sear are obviously only for machineguns, so i can see their (highly disagreeable) line of logic and compliance with the law. The M16 selector lever would be the more 'questionable' of the fire control group, as you could use it to defeat the disconnector and, in theory, the hammer then following the bolt could result in automatic fire, but still isn't a machine gun exclusive.

their claim that removing the disconnector may result in automatic fire is an odd one, i'm not sure how that would be any different using an M16 trigger or an AR15 trigger, the disco does the same thing on both

 

[Provience]

Success!

















and this last one is with the Mini-Mag 1235 FPS trying to run faster to see if it would still work. I was used to loading 10 rounds at a time, so it was a bit confusing when it didn't lock open earlier, hence the pause You can also get a better idea of how far this thing launches the casings. they were typically landing beyond the blanket in the bottom left of the screen. easily 10'+ from where i was standing

 

[Provience]

the only 2 issues i had, i'm going to blame on the ammunition (both incidents were with the winchester super x). I had 1 failure to fire, but it was pretty obvious where the edge of the case had been crimped, so stuffed it back in and lit it off a second time and it went bang.

The second "issue" came with the last round of the magazine. it fired off, but almost as if it weren't fully in battery felt like i got hit in the face with some powder or debris and it was smoking out the rear of the receiver instead of just out of the barrel as is typical. These magazines do hold open on the last round, but this was the only time that it seemed like the thing did the stuff without being fully contained.

pulled it apart right after and nothing looked out of whack. it's probably the first time i've ever been glad to be wearing safety glasses while firing guess i'll make a little plug eventually for where the standard charging handle comes from.


Overall, super happy with it. Turns out the easiest thing is to charge it overhand, anchoring my thumb on the brass deflector, index finger on the right side, middle finger on the left side. very comfortable and natural, easy to brass check that way. Feels way better than the typical rear protruding charging handle. Watching the videos confirms that the charging handle doesn't attempt to reciprocate with the bolt, if it did move at all, i couldn't tell while using it.

edit: so easy, a child can do it

although he agrees it is heavier and harder to control than his savage

 

[Aisin]

Awesome. Can you get the quiet semi auto to shoot?

 

[Provience]

I need to buy more bullets, i was really hoping the shelves would be stocked again by now :( but i imagine they will work just based on how far this thing launches brass with the 1070 FPS standard velocity stuff. i'm half tempted to email right to bear and see if they offer a couple levels heavier spring. this is just with a 9" barrel, so it also adds to why i'd like to leave about 4" as is, then start venting the last 5" of the barrel to help stabilize it.

I dunno, seems like a fun thing to mess with.

 

[rockmup]

As far as the ATF goes any thing that says "Should" is what they are hoping you'll do. It is not law. or enforceable. The parts list for what they consider to be a machine gun has to have all the parts listed thats why it says "AND" Shit even lowers can have the shelf in them and have for years.

FWIW, 22LR is all done after 4.5" any barrel after that is just weight.

 

[Provience]

As far as the ATF goes any thing that says "Should" is what they are hoping you'll do. It is not law. or enforceable. The parts list for what they consider to be a machine gun has to have all the parts listed thats why it says "AND" Shit even lowers can have the shelf in them and have for years.

FWIW, 22LR is all done after 4.5" any barrel after that is just weight.

makes sense.

I don't have the stuff to play around all scientifically, but the running out thing is what makes me curious about playing around with different weight recoil springs and barrel porting. kind of a see how much energy i can keep into the barrel before it blows back to keep it just cycling, and then venting it out in various spots along the barrel so that the transition into open air is a bit less abrupt.

and then the question would be, is there even enough change or gain there to be worthwhile, now that i know i can hit a can at 20 yards if needed

 

[Aisin]

Is that correct on the 4.5” barrel? I find that hard to believe. Of course I don’t even have anything in .22lr right now.

 

[Provience]

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html

guess not entirely, according to that chart, my ruger bearcat with the CCI mini-mag 40 gr puts out 979 FPS

ruger 10/22 18.5" barrel with same round puts out 1199 FPS

and my 9" AR pistol would be about 1169 if it were not a blow back SA

they list a Ruger Mark II with 10" barrel at 1160 FPS. ruger claims those are simple blowback autoloading and not delayed or falling block or any other geewhiz, so maybe that is a closer representation

edit: i've got 7 22lr things at the moment, probably only going to add another 2 or 3 and i'll be satisfied everything runs the CCI "standard" 40gr stuff pretty dang well, so that is what i try to stick with generally.

 

[Aisin]

According to that chart the difference is around 200 FPS between an 18 and a 4 inch barrel. I did not think it’d be that close.

 

[Provience]

According to that chart the difference is around 200 FPS between an 18 and a 4 inch barrel. I did not think it’d be that close.

there isn't a whole lot of powder capacity i guess.

 

[Provience]

speaking of youtube and 22lr's, this guy put together an interesting one of various CCI 22lr rounds into some gel