Russia / Ukraine thread

[87manche]

My understanding is that tanks are outdated technology. They are only used as artillery and don't actually do any front line fighting.

The drones, jets, and helicopters will destroy tanks very quickly today and it's outdated tech from ww2.

Curious what this special armor is. Even if the outside isn't penatrated, the extreme percussion would rattle the operators wouldn't it.

I don't believe that the tank as an offensive weapon is dead.

but it's a trench war at the moment, so what else are you gonna use them for?

 

[aczlan]

Curious what this special armor is. Even if the outside isn't penatrated, the extreme percussion would rattle the operators wouldn't it.

If you're talking about the reactive armor, as I understand it, an armor piercing shell is intended to contact the skin of the tank and then send a jet of molten metal (often copper) through the skin of the tank and to splatter all over the inside.
The purpose of reactive armor is to give a "false outer skin" so that the armor piercing projectile fires prematurely and molten metal jet splatters against the outside of the tank rather than inside the tank.
Still going to make a bang, but a bang outside the tank rather than inside the tank and hopefully it will be survivable.


Aaron Z

 

[Bggrnchvy]

My understanding is that tanks are outdated technology. They are only used as artillery and don't actually do any front line fighting.

The drones, jets, and helicopters will destroy tanks very quickly today and it's outdated tech from ww2.

Curious what this special armor is. Even if the outside isn't penatrated, the extreme percussion would rattle the operators wouldn't it

Nothing works on a battlefield like a tank, therefore the tank is still very much valuable. It's just more vulnerable able than it has been. On the modern battlefield, if you can be seen, you can be targeted. The only options are move fast, spread out or don't be seen. Tanks can move quickly, so they are useful for advancing.

As for being used as artillery, it's a crap stop gap measure to fulfil the need of a military doctrine relying on numerical superiority of tubes as opposed to accurate locally targeted fires. It wears out tanks and burns stores while not utilizing the core strengths.

If you're talking about the reactive armor, as I understand it, an armor piercing shell is intended to contact the skin of the tank and then send a jet of molten metal (often copper) through the skin of the tank and to splatter all over the inside.
The purpose of reactive armor is to give a "false outer skin" so that the armor piercing projectile fires prematurely and molten metal jet splatters against the outside of the tank rather than inside the tank.
Still going to make a bang, but a bang outside the tank rather than inside the tank and hopefully it will be survivable.


Aaron Z

He's talking about Dorchester, it's an evolution of Chobham. Chobham was used on Challenger 1s and Abrams (with DU added). Dorchester is used on Challeneger 2s. It's the layered armor designed to break up APFSDS and withstand HESH with much less weight than a comparable thickness RHA. ERA blocks go on top of that. Then you mount active systems like Trophy on top of the tank.

The British suggest Dorchester gives the Challenger 2 improved protection to APFSDS compared to the DU augmented Chobham the Abrams uses. The prime reason to do this is the lack of access to DU GB has.

 

[Icono]

Listen to this interview with the former Israeli PM.

Interesting part starts at [2:38:20 to 3:05:17]

Subtitled. Video below starts a bit earlier for background.

 

[Icono]

Show me your papers. If you don't, your neighbours will!



Expand the lower thumb nail on twitter. Unreal.

 

[Icono]

Good read.

Setting the Record Straight; Stuff you should know about Ukraine

 

[Icono]

Setting the Record Straight; Stuff you should know about Ukraine​

Mike Whitney • February 5, 2023 • 3,900 Words • 347 Comments • Reply

22–28 minutes

---

On February 16, 2022, a full week before Putin sent combat troops into Ukraine, the Ukrainian Army began the heavy bombardment of the area (in east Ukraine) occupied by mainly ethnic Russians.

Officials from the Observer Mission of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) were located in the vicinity at the time and kept a record of the shelling as it took place. What the OSCE discovered was that the bombardment dramatically intensified as the week went on until it reached a peak on February 19, when a total of 2,026 artillery strikes were recorded.

Keep in mind, the Ukrainian Army was, in fact, shelling civilian areas along the Line of Contact that were occupied by other Ukrainians.

We want to emphasize that the officials from the OSCE were operating in their professional capacity gathering first-hand evidence of shelling in the area. What their data shows is that Ukrainian Forces were bombing and killing their own people. This has all been documented and has not been challenged.

So, the question we must all ask ourselves is this: Is the bombardment and slaughter of one’s own people an ‘act of war’?

We think it is. And if we are right, then we must logically assume that the war began before the Russian invasion (which was launched a full week later)

We must also assume that Russia’s alleged “unprovoked aggression” was not unprovoked at all but was the appropriate humanitarian response to the deliberate killing of civilians. In order to argue that the Russian invasion was ‘not provoked’, we would have to say that firing over 4,000 artillery shells into towns and neighborhoods where women and children live, is not a provocation? Who will defend that point of view?

No one, because it’s absurd.

The killing of civilians in the Donbas was a clear provocation, a provocation that was aimed at goading Russia into a war. And –as we said earlier– the OSCE had monitors on the ground who provided full documentation of the shelling as it took place, which is as close to ironclad, eyewitness testimony as you’re going to get.

This, of course, is a major break with the “official narrative” which identifies Russia as the perpetrator of hostilities. But, as we’ve shown, that simply isn’t the case. The official narrative is wrong.

Even so, it might not surprise you to know that most of the mainstream media completely omitted any coverage of the OSCE’s fact-finding activities in east Ukraine. The one exception to was Reuters that published a deliberately opaque account published on February 18 titled “Russia voices alarm over sharp increase of Donbass shelling”. Here’s an excerpt:

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov voiced alarm on Friday over a sharp increase in shelling in eastern Ukraine and accused the OSCE special monitoring mission of glossing over what he said were Ukrainian violations of the peace process….

Washington and its allies have raised fears that the upsurge in violence in the Donbass could form part of a Russian pretext to invade Ukraine. Tensions are already high over a Russian military buildup to the north, east and south of Ukraine.
“We are very concerned by the reports of recent days – yesterday and the day before there was a sharp increase in shelling using weapons that are prohibited under the Minsk agreements,” Lavrov said, referring to peace accords aimed at ending the conflict. “So far we are seeing the special monitoring mission is doing its best to smooth over all questions that point to the blame of Ukraine’s armed forces,” he told a news conference.

READ ON....

 

[aczlan]

Good read.

Setting the Record Straight; Stuff you should know about Ukraine

Ah yes, another Russian backed claim of Ukranian genocide and yet when Ukraine took Russia to court claiming to be falsely accused of genocide, Russia declined to participate and claimed that the court had no jurisdiction (despite Russia and Ukraine being signatories to the 1980s genocide treaty): Summaries | Allegations of Genocide under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (Ukraine v. Russian Federation) | International Court of Justice

The Court begins by recalling that, on 26 February 2022, at 9.30 p.m., Ukraine filed in the Registry of the Court an Application instituting proceedings against the Russian Federation concerning “a dispute . . . relating to the interpretation, application and fulfilment of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide” (hereinafter the “Genocide Convention” or the “Convention”). In its Application, Ukraine contends that the Russian Federation has falsely claimed that acts of genocide have occurred in the Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts of Ukraine, recognized on that basis the so-called “Donetsk People’s Republic” and “Luhansk People’s Republic”, and then declared and implemented a “special military operation” against Ukraine with the express purpose of preventing and punishing purported acts of genocide that have no basis in fact. Ukraine emphatically denies that any such genocide has occurred. The Court then recalls that, together with the Application, Ukraine submitted a Request for the indication of provisional measures, seeking in particular that the Russian Federation immediately suspend the military operations commenced on 24 February 2022 that have as their stated purpose and objective the prevention and punishment of a claimed genocide in the Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts of Ukraine, and immediately ensure that any military or irregular armed units which may be directed or supported by it, as well as any organizations and persons which may be subject to its control, direction or influence, take no steps in furtherance of the military operations which have as their stated purpose and objective preventing or punishing Ukraine for committing genocide. Lastly, the Court notes that the Russian Federation indicated, on 5 March 2022, that it had decided not to participate in the oral proceedings. It further notes, however, that, on 7 March 2022, the Ambassador of the Russian Federation to the Kingdom of the Netherlands communicated to the Court a document setting out “the position of the Russian Federation regarding the lack of jurisdiction of the Court in t[he] case”, in which it contends that the Court lacks jurisdiction to entertain the case and “requests [it] to refrain from indicating provisional measures and to remove the case from its list”.

Very interesting that a country who is claiming that another country has committed genocide as a justification for a "special military operation" is now declining to provide any proof of said genocide and is stating that the ICJ has no jurisdiction in the matter...

Aaron Z

 

[ev13wt]

Those EU idiots still dont care about their own countries. The must still save Ukraine one way or another. Most of their military and complexes are in shambles, economies wrecked. Even potatohead dont care about the US. Hes sending all of our natural resources to other countries. In Califonina natural gas rates have tripled and more in January. These elites everywhere need to go.

Eu really only cares about itself. But this "war" is actually between the USA and Russia. Nobody in EU will do shit unless you guys also send tanks. (then planes, then soldiers but hey - right nooooowwwww it's just tanks...)

EU is just caught between rock and hard place.

The oil companies are pulling in RECORD numbers for 22... It's just a bit too obvious, we all should .... oh hey did you see the new show on netflix?

 

[Icono]

Ah yes, another Russian backed claim of Ukranian genocide and yet when Ukraine took Russia to court claiming to be falsely accused of genocide, Russia declined to participate and claimed that the court had no jurisdiction (despite Russia and Ukraine being signatories to the 1980s genocide treaty): Summaries | Allegations of Genocide under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (Ukraine v. Russian Federation) | International Court of Justice


Very interesting that a country who is claiming that another country has committed genocide as a justification for a "special military operation" is now declining to provide any proof of said genocide and is stating that the ICJ has no jurisdiction in the matter...

Aaron Z

Are you saying that the findings from the "Observer Mission of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE)" are illegitimate?


Are you NOT understanding the ACTUAL shit going down? FACTS?

Why your bias? I have none except for trying to shovel the actual SHIT ton of bullshit from Media out of the Augeas stables.

Fuck me. Clear the scales from your eyes.

Are you NOT paying attention, or is it that you don't WANT to?

 

[ev13wt]

Are you NOT understanding the ACTUAL shit going down? FACTS?

Why your bias?

Fuck me. Clear the scales from your eyes.

So you know the FACTS.
Let me help you.
You don't know shit about the why and tho who and the causes of anything.

Russia should have quit before starting.

 

[surpip]

You don't know shit about the why and tho who and the causes of anything.

Idiot fuck says someone doesn't know what they are talking about.
News at 11.

 

[ev13wt]

Idiot fuck says someone doesn't know what they are talking about.
News at 11.

I'm right tho. Shit, it could be Russia and Ukraine have this entire thing planned out just to get a ton of weapons. Then, they go BFF and attack us.
Could be just as valid as everything else we are "guessing" about.

You know, overrun Germany with German tanks as payback :)

 

[Mr Stubs]

I'm right tho. Shit, it could be Russia and Ukraine have this entire thing planned out just to get a ton of weapons. Then, they go BFF and attack us.
Could be just as valid as everything else we are "guessing" about.

You know, overrun Germany with German tanks as payback :)

Ya, ya that’s it…

 

[[486]]

How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline

The New York Times called it a “mystery,” but the United States executed a covert sea operation that was kept secret—until now

seymourhersh.substack.com

 

[Splib]

I'm right tho. Shit, it could be Russia and Ukraine have this entire thing planned out just to get a ton of weapons. Then, they go BFF and attack us.
Could be just as valid as everything else we are "guessing" about.

You know, overrun Germany with German tanks as payback :)

WoaWoWow

 

[aczlan]

Are you NOT understanding the ACTUAL shit going down? FACTS?

Your linked article is referencing the events leading up to the Russian invasion "Special Military Action" and Russia's justification for their actions in which they claimed that the Ukrainians were committing genocide against ethnic Russians in Ukraine.
Ukraine took them to court and said "prove it" and Russia said "this court doesn't have jurisdiction over this matter"

Why your bias?
Fuck me. Clear the scales from your eyes.

I looked at the actual report cited by the article (you might want to read it yourself), the numbers do NOT match the conclusions drawn by the article.
From the article:

Here is the report that they used for those numbers: OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine (SMM) Daily Report 40/2022 issued on 21 February 2022
From the report:

So, 1100+926=2026, note that those numbers are total EXPLOSIONS for BOTH sides, NOT just from the Ukrainian side and NOT just artillery strikes.

Of note, we have the "Table of weapons" showing who has weapons that they said they would not use in places where they aren't supposed to be:

The map of noted settlements:

Here is the map from the article (note that this map is NOT from the same day as the rest of the data used in the article, it is from the report from the 22nd): OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine (SMM) Daily Report 41/2022 issued on 22 February 2022

Here is the map of incidents that matches the numbers used in the article:

Going down to "Table of ceasefire violations" from the report for the numbers that they used, lets start in the middle with Donetsk:

Hey look at all those OUTGOING explosions from "non government controlled areas", hmmm, that's odd, I thought this was all about Ukranians beating on defenseless ethnic Russians, but it looks more like both sides trading punches.

Also worth noting on where they are "allowed to look:

So, what have we learned:

1. The "2,026 artillery strikes" was actually 2,026 explosions
2. The 2026 explosions includes explosions on BOTH sides
3. Included in the 2026 number are:
   • Outgoing artillery launches
   • Outgoing artillery explosions
   • Incoming artillery explosions
4. The "non-goverment-controlled" forces do not let the observers through in many places (which will of necessity mean that firing from the "non-goverment-controlled forces" will be under-reported)
5. Neither side was willing to clear/mark as clear certain roads that the observers wanted to use
6. The "non-goverment-controlled" forces were quite willing to shoot at the observer's UAVs (other days had similar reports)
7. The Russians are happy to claim that the Ukranians are committing genocide, but are unwilling to provide proof before a court of law.

Beyond that, I have a family member who spent several years in the Donetsk region before things started getting "hot" and is still in contact with people who they got to know over there.
They say that there weren't really "2 sides" when they were there and the biggest issue was that they used both Russian and Ukranian so interchangeably that it was not uncommon for someone to start typing a report in one language and switch to the other without noticing it.
Yes there were a few who griped and claimed to be discriminated against, but they were usually baseless accusations from troublemakers.
Their friends say that the Russians started amplifying and funding the troublemakers and pushing for divisions and that led to what we see today, most of the people from the region did not support the troublemakers and they believed that the "referendum" to split was a rigged vote.

In short, the article you linked to is provably factually incorrect (or at best deliberately misleading) in the first paragraph, so I will not bother debunking the rest of the BS in it (calling the demands in Putin's proposal "basic assurances" certainly fits into that).


Aaron Z

 

[Icono]

Oh NO!

My bad. The Ukrainian that lives next door to my Dad, says otherwise. He was an officer that got his family out (and many others) when they knew better than to stay and fight "for a puppet regime" (his words).

You're really not seeing this, are you?


I understand.


NONE of them wanted this, according to the neighbor. NONE. When the coup happened, they tried to live it out, and when the shelling started it wasn't "us", as he says.

He's devastated.

 

[ProjectTwin]

12ft

 

[[486]]

Oh NO!
My bad. The Ukrainian that lives next door to my Dad, says otherwise. He was an officer that got his family out (and many others) when they knew better than to stay and fight "for a puppet regime" (his words).
You're really not seeing this, are you?
I understand.

dude...
drop the dichotomy
just because you're sucking putin's asshole rather than soros' doesn't mean you're doing any better

 

[[486]]

12ft

yup, full article linked above the big post, here I'll quote it...

How America Took Out The Nord Stream Pipeline

The New York Times called it a “mystery,” but the United States executed a covert sea operation that was kept secret—until now

seymourhersh.substack.com

 

[Icono]

dude...
drop the dichotomy
just because you're sucking putin's asshole rather than soros' doesn't mean you're doing any better

I

 

[Thumping]

I'm right tho. Shit, it could be Russia and Ukraine have this entire thing planned out just to get a ton of weapons. Then, they go BFF and attack us.
Could be just as valid as everything else we are "guessing" about.

You know, overrun Germany with German tanks as payback :)

So there could be a positive to this outcome? Fucking awesome

 

[87manche]

Oh NO!

My bad. The Ukrainian that lives next door to my Dad, says otherwise. He was an officer that got his family out (and many others) when they knew better than to stay and fight "for a puppet regime" (his words).

You're really not seeing this, are you?


I understand.


NONE of them wanted this, according to the neighbor. NONE. When the coup happened, they tried to live it out, and when the shelling started it wasn't "us", as he says.

He's devastated.

so it's impossible to you that maybe, just maybe, there are other ukrainians with an opposing viewpoint to his?

obviously there must be some since they're fighting russians and they didn't just walk into a homecoming parade like they thought they were going to.

yes, this mess is 100% because of politics in the west and the east, bummer for ukraine that they got to be the battleground. you can't ignore the fact that there's obviously a percentage of the ukrainian public that would rather be the west's friend than russia's friend, and that's what this boils down to.

 

[Splib]

I'm right tho. Shit, it could be Russia and Ukraine have this entire thing planned out just to get a ton of weapons. Then, they go BFF and attack us.
Could be just as valid as everything else we are "guessing" about.

You know, overrun Germany with German tanks as payback :)

WoaWoWow

 

[Icono]

so it's impossible to you that maybe, just maybe, there are other ukrainians with an opposing viewpoint to his?

obviously there must be some since they're fighting russians and they didn't just walk into a homecoming parade like they thought they were going to.

yes, this mess is 100% because of politics in the west and the east, bummer for ukraine that they got to be the battleground. you can't ignore the fact that there's obviously a percentage of the ukrainian public that would rather be the west's friend than russia's friend, and that's what this boils down to.

Obviously, since "obviously there must be some since they started ethnic cleansing civilians years before they started fighting Russian soldiers."

Is that what you meant?

As for opposing views, I don't think you grasp what a non-duality situation is. Can you?

a percentage of the ukrainian public that would rather be the west's friend than russia's friend, and that's what this boils down to

Who is this NOW? Those that want to get fed and not die?

Or are you talking from before?

You think they had a choice? Poland hates them, nobody else trusted most of them (officials), what about the common man on the street trying to make a living?

And then the West used what was not even a controlled "army" by the UKR Gov to initiate hostilities?

 

[87manche]

Obviously, since "obviously there must be some since they started ethnic cleansing civilians years before they started fighting Russian soldiers."

Is that what you meant?

civil war being civil war and all.

 

[DR. SMASHER]

What has this thread decayed into? What is it even covering now?

 

[bigun]

What has this thread decayed into? What is it even covering now?

Don't ask me man I just got here myself

 

[Yota Up]

Show me your papers. If you don't, your neighbours will!



Expand the lower thumb nail on twitter. Unreal.

UKR must be taking serious losses to get so desperate.