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I’ll dig out my FOA piston next time I’m in the garage. My main complaint was aluminum in the seals.
 
Beat95yj said:
Again easily solveable with a burr knife or a tumbler. Or flat sanding.

Problem is most of these guys don’t give a crap or don’t know better.
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Fuck giving some button pushing a burr knife. That's how you end up with scared parts. Those things should be deburred in the machine. Chamfer mill for most stuff, small ball mill for things it can't get too.
 
bdkw1 said:
Fuck giving some button pushing a burr knife. That's how you end up with scared parts. Those things should be deburred in the machine. Chamfer mill for most stuff, small ball mill for things it can't get too.
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I’ve seen plenty of monkeys taught to use them. I prefer hollow ground three sided burr knives. Not those little things with the Spinny end that go right into your fucking thumb.
 
Beat95yj said:
I’ve seen plenty of monkeys taught to use them. I prefer hollow ground three sided burr knives. Not those little things with the Spinny end that go right into your fucking thumb.
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I've been doing this a long time, having the machine do it is always better. It looks way better than by hand and zero chance of a fuck up. With a dual spindle lathe and a bar feeder, those pistons should be ready to slap In a shock when they roll out of the parts catcher. If you need somebody baby sitting it to deburr parts, your loosing money.
 
bdkw1 said:
I've been doing this a long time, having the machine do it is always better. It looks way better than by hand and zero chance of a fuck up. With a dual spindle lathe and a bar feeder, those pistons should be ready to slap In a shock when they roll out of the parts catcher. If you need somebody baby sitting it to deburr parts, your loosing money.
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I agree, but using those tools assumes that you have round ports. A square port takes a lot longer even with live tooling on the lathe. An operator running 2 lathes should be able to deburr the pistons between during the cycle. At least in my experience.
 
Beat95yj said:
I agree, but using those tools assumes that you have round ports. A square port takes a lot longer even with live tooling on the lathe. An operator running 2 lathes should be able to deburr the pistons between during the cycle. At least in my experience.
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Lights out overnight, no operator. There are no square ports on billet pistons. I do this every day, for the last 35 years. I know a thing or 2 about machining parts.
 
Beat95yj said:
I agree, but using those tools assumes that you have round ports. A square port takes a lot longer even with live tooling on the lathe. An operator running 2 lathes should be able to deburr the pistons between during the cycle. At least in my experience.
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bdkw1 said:
Lights out overnight, no operator. There are no square ports on billet pistons. I do this every day, for the last 35 years. I know a thing or 2 about machining parts.
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Geez get a room. :flipoff2: You both work/ed in the industry and are arguing over stuff most of us aren't intimately familiar with.
 
Any questions i need to ask?
Lol
20240517_110831.jpg
 
Beat95yj said:
I have heard OverLanders talk about how they need $5000 plus in suspension to go down dirt roads and camp in a campground. That is a good target audience to have.
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Oh definitely. So many of them dropping lots of money to keep up with the joneses.

Catering to guys who bolt on all the extra weight is genius too:
1715970300235.png
 
Got a note Carbon popped up a lot on here so thought it might be good to chime in.

1st off yes we had a lot of struggles in the beginning getting to where we are today. Initially we started off outsourcing a lot of our parts to shops and after prolonged issues we began to bring everything in house and acquired machinery to do so. From staffing to delivery we struggled. It was hard but no excuses we made the choices we did.

Our background was Ultra4 Racing and various jeep speeds races from 2012 - 2020

During this time we saw the need and worked hard on learning the tech and science / engineering behind what we wanted to do. In the beginning it was a very hard struggle getting things done as many small business's have to learn. When we ran into the typical pitfalls of having other shops make our parts we made the hard decisions to get our own machines and learn to do our own stuff. We took a dive in the deep end and almost drowned. Things started to grow and we found a really good local shop in Denver that supplemented our production and helped a lot but we overwhelmed them and during the Covid era we were faced with material issue and lead times and it became to much to wait on others.
As we expanded and added more machines we knew we needed a bigger shop and more staff. Also around this time we were told by the county we could not stay where we were. We looked a lot for commercial real estate but faced a massive uphill battle due to the weed industry in Denver. Ultimately we moved the company to Oklahoma City. I grew up in Oklahoma so that was 1 reason on the long lists of positives. The move basically destroyed us. Moving machines staff multiple families took its toll and honestly I don't know how we got through it.

Fast forward to today...

Over the last 2 years we have worked with a number of industry experts, consultants, shock tuners and more. Everything that has been asked of our product and process has been refined to the level this industry deserves.

We use the same materials as the big companies. We manufacture 100% of our product in house. We physically make everything and hold proper tolerances. We use American Made dysogrin seals. Our Tubes are manufactured from Id Honed material holding tolerances of -0 +.001 and are required to hold this post bypass tube welding. Most parts hold tolerances in the +-.002 to +-.005 range depending on what it is.

Every tube and part is hand cleaned through various methods including ultra sonic cleaners and we have 2 full time debur and inspection employees. EVERY BYPASS shock goes through our Ultra sonic cleaner to remove any debrsi hindin in the tubes and valve bodies. Their jobs are nothing more than hand inspecting every part after machining and ensuring quality and finish is correct.
Most part are electro polished prior to enodizing. This process deburrs and rounds the edges at a microscopic leve and produces a smooth good finish.

We have a dozen machines and 15 employees at this time. Every employee understand the level of quality we must produce in everything we do. Every person from machining to assembly are constantly looking for issues al the way down to packing where a 20 point inspection is signed off and logged for future reference. We log every step so that if there is an issue we know where it came from. QC has been a painful process ensuring that our product meets the standard required.

We post almost everything we make and how its made on our Social media for 100% transparency and while we have had our growing pains and scars to remind us we are on a good path and the product has been doing very well.

Some customer reviews from the early days will not be kind and we own that. We do not shy away from our mistakes and always have done our best to help people and support people that might of had an issue. We do not discount previous failures. In Jan 2023 we extended our warranty to 1 year as RMA's were getting lower and lower and as of today our failure rate in 2024 is less than 1/2 of 1%.

We work with people world wide and have people racing on our shocks doing well across the globe and reviews post 2022 have been very good.

The hardest part of running an a growing opoeration is managing all areas from material aqusition CNC assembly packing shipping employee management ERP and everything in between. Having Zero experiance in this area running a manufacturing company was a hard task to swallow. Most dont realize the layers needed to do what we do and often times I ( Daniel ) would personally get angry with people for not understanding what we were doing. I had to take a hard reality check in myself going out of 2022 to realize I needed to change my viewpoints a bit. This has helped and thankfuly we have found the right people for different positions allowing us to grow naturally and allows us to focus on the needed changes to facilitate the growth potential we have in front of us and have been seeing.

Feel free to hate away. I take nothing personal. My goal is simple. Let the product and service do the talking and while we may not have been perfect in the begining/

Our Goals are simple
1. Produce a great product
2. Provide our product at a fair price
3. Produce our product in America in House and create American Jobs :usa:
4. Provide the best service on the planet.


Constructive critisism is always welcome and we are always learning. Please dont take this as an attempt to convince anyone to buy our shocks. I simply wanted to provide some insight as to Carbon Shocks.

We care about our product and your not getting a shock with metal shaving sent to you. Our assembly area is a clean room away from the machine shop and parts only go in there after they have been cleaned. Even when a part is made for inventory, it gets inspected again prior to coming in the assembly room.


Hope this provides some insight.
 
bdkw1 said:
I've been doing this a long time, having the machine do it is always better. It looks way better than by hand and zero chance of a fuck up. With a dual spindle lathe and a bar feeder, those pistons should be ready to slap In a shock when they roll out of the parts catcher. If you need somebody baby sitting it to deburr parts, your loosing money.
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I wish it were that simple. Once pistons come out of machines they get a quick inspection for tolerance and then go into a parts tumbler for 24 HRS. The media softens all edges and provides a smooth consistent finish. Once they come out of the tumbler they are cleaned and then ran by hand with oil on a honing stones. This ensure a very flat surface for the piston face. Once they are done they are electro-polished. This provides a final debur through chemicals and electricty and are then anodized.
 
Beat95yj said:
They made a lot of questionable choices in the beginning. I asked about some of them, never got great answers.
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Id be happy to send something for you to tear apart and find issues with. Not saying that arrogantly. Legit curious what you would have to say and if you did find something feedback is always welcome. We care deeply about making a great product and have worked hard to do so. Sometimes you have to eat some crow along the way. I apologize if I was not as welcoming with my responses in the past.
 
carbon_shocks said:
I wish it were that simple. Once pistons come out of machines they get a quick inspection for tolerance and then go into a parts tumbler for 24 HRS. The media softens all edges and provides a smooth consistent finish. Once they come out of the tumbler they are cleaned and then ran by hand with oil on a honing stones. This ensure a very flat surface for the piston face. Once they are done they are electro-polished. This provides a final debur through chemicals and electricty and are then anodized.
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Tumbling for 24 hrs? What the fuck are you using for media? Goose feathers? With ceramic media, 15 min, any more and they start to look like melted butter. Hand lapping? Waste of time. If they need hand lapping, you're doing something wrong in the lathe.
 
carbon_shocks said:
Id be happy to send something for you to tear apart and find issues with. Not saying that arrogantly. Legit curious what you would have to say and if you did find something feedback is always welcome. We care deeply about making a great product and have worked hard to do so. Sometimes you have to eat some crow along the way. I apologize if I was not as welcoming with my responses in the past.
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I may or may not have chimed in on this thread. I own a full set of carbon coilovers. This purchase was late 2021 or early 2022. This is definitely not to come in with a gut punch, but I have had issues with your products from the box.

I ordered with a full set of adjustable reservoirs (leaked as new, never run, still in build phase). I called, you offered to replace with new styles for $100 per res. I declined. I had already spent the money on adjustables and could not justify the second expense. I will say you did provide standards at no charge.

Initially they arrived with the wrong ends installed apart from spec (shorts, when I asked for longs) you did provide those at no charge, but your guys struggled with attention to detail. O-rings cut and protruding on fittings (I didn't complain, at that point, as a hydraulics tech, I just pulled them and installed Viton O-rings). Finally made it to installing springs that you provided through FOA. Wrong lengths, wrong weights and unlabeled with weights so it's a guessing game, where I now have to start over.

You may be getting better, but I've had a rough experience. After the last bit with the springs, trying to call you guys and FOA for returns and getting nowhere, I've chalked it up to a bad experience. And a lesson learned.
 
bdkw1 said:
Tumbling for 24 hrs? What the fuck are you using for media? Goose feathers? With ceramic media, 15 min, any more and they start to look like melted butter. Hand lapping? Waste of time. If they need hand lapping, you're doing something wrong in the lathe.
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1. Ceramic media would be foolish to use on Aluminum. Plastic is the way to go. Ceramic would give a harsh surface fully of micro dents.
2. Tumbling takes time and serves a purpose. If you are saying we are foolish for making are parts as smooth and burr free as possible I am not sure how to logically respond to that.

Regarding the use of a honing stone. I think your not aware of the reason for this based on your response so let me explain.

Image taking a shim with oil on it and dropping it on a mirror. Try to pick it up. It is going to be hard because of the stiction created. Now do the same thing with a surface with tiny micro scratches across the face of the mirror. By breaking the tension you allow for a more consistent opening of the shims. In addition this provide the flattest surface possible after all deburr processes.

Hand honing takes the quality up a notch and is common practice in the shock industry.

If you are saying this is foolish then you must know better than 100% of the shock tuners and people we have worked with that have long history in the shock industry.
 
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1Sinner said:
carbon_shocks you're welcome to check my post history. I've detailed a lot of this out in my build thread and other shock related threads.
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I completely understand your side of the story and I apologize for unpleasant experience.

Regarding springs, Am I to assume this was a few of years ago 2020/2021.
We did a lot of Viper springs ( FOA ) They were an available option however over a long while we ran into the following issues.

1. Rates not measuring what they were listed at ( if they were even marked )
2. Blemish count was to high
3. Shipping conditions and people freaking out about springs showing up in a competitor box,
4. Incorrect fitment of the Spring ID and sometimes length.

We wanted to use other options but due to covid several large companies were not taking on new dealers. In May 2023 we worked it out to be able to sell Eibach and have not had any issues.

The downside to eibach is there is no spring exchange so it makes it harder in that aspect but quality is 100% better.

Did you talk to us about the spring by chance? Did we spec them out or was it you ordered and Viper sent the wrong stuff?

Regarding Reservoir,

Early on we did use an adjustable Resi brought to us and after a while we logged to many issues to continue using them. We scrapped almost 40K in parts and kept enough items to service customers. Our new resi was in R&D for about 2 years prior to releasing so there was a period we did not offer an adjuster. Once we released them we provided options to people based on any number of situation. I do not recall your exact situation as to details but I see what you are saying.

Are you still running our shocks at this time. If so I would be happy to provide updated reservoirs at no cost. Since release we have had 0 complaints in thousands of reservoirs on the market now. If we told you we would provide adjustable reservoirs then we need to stick to our word and I am sorry we didn't for whatever reason.

Ill take the blame for forgetting or whatever happened. Last few years have been extremely busy and hard to keep up with everything at times and I have had to grow a lot ensuring customer are happy and taken care of.
 
carbon_shocks said:
1. Ceramic media would be foolish to use on Aluminum. Plastic is the way to go. Ceramic would give a harsh surface fully of micro dents.
2. Tumbling takes time and serves a purpose. If you are saying we are foolish for making are parts as smooth and burr free as possible I am not sure how to logically respond to that.

Regarding the use of a honing stone. I think your not aware of the reason for this based on your response so let me explain.

Image taking a shim with oil on it and dropping it on a mirror. Try to pick it up. It is going to be hard because of the stiction created. Now do the same thing with a surface with tiny micro scratches across the face of the mirror. By breaking the tension you allow for a more consistent opening of the shims. In addition this provide the flattest surface possible after all deburr processes.

Hand honing takes the quality up a notch and is common practice in the shock industry.

If you are saying this is foolish then you must know better than 100% of the shock tuners and people we have worked with that have long history in the shock industry.
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The term your looking for is plateau hone. I would like to see shock dyno evidence that it actually does anything.
 
carbon_shocks said:
Id be happy to send something for you to tear apart and find issues with. Not saying that arrogantly. Legit curious what you would have to say and if you did find something feedback is always welcome. We care deeply about making a great product and have worked hard to do so. Sometimes you have to eat some crow along the way. I apologize if I was not as welcoming with my responses in the past.
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Sounds tempting, but at this point, I don’t know that I could get to it in a timely manner. If something changes, I will let you know.
 
bdkw1 said:
The term your looking for is plateau hone. I would like to see shock dyno evidence that it actually does anything.
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IMO that is such a rapid event when the valve opens and closes that it would be very hard to see with most of the dyno’s I have worked with. I don’t know if Roehrig has that resolution.

You could make the point that if the dyno can’t pick it up, does it matter. And there would be validity to that question.

I have honed and sanded a number of pistons to make them work better. It definitely helps. Get multiple shocks running line on line (helps make the curves the same.)
 
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