WaterH
Well-known member
Ain't nobody gonna call you scared.
Carry on!
Carry on!
Project: Midnight Panic
- Thread starter Skipped_Link
- Start date
Sterlingfire
ignant
Wow, just wow
rattle_snake
Fuckwits
So, did you make the front cover? Assuming it is stout to help support an external crank snout bearing ahead (or behind in your case) of the blower pulley.
With fuel pump in water pump location, external electric pump?
What is the blower exactly? roots or screw?
bad ass as always!
With fuel pump in water pump location, external electric pump?
What is the blower exactly? roots or screw?
bad ass as always!
Skipped_Link
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Member Number
- 540
- Messages
- 428
- Thread starter
- #185
The timing cover, no, I'm not sure who made it, I had picked it up from one of the big block forums several years ago, I have done quite a bit of work to it, but I did not actually build it,
The crank support will actually bolt to the front motor plate, (that part I did build) which is sandwiched between the block & timing cover,
The fuel pump is actually a mechanical "gear rotor" pump, unless you're asking about what I'm doing for a water pump, then yes that is a remote mount electric unit up near the radiator,
The blower is a roots style, 14-71, Hi-helix, retro/front discharge, delta opening, It's probably not the absolute most bad ass roots style blower, but it's towards the top of the list,
Skipped_Link
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Member Number
- 540
- Messages
- 428
- Thread starter
- #186
Throw a holiday in & 5 days off fly by pretty fast,
I did manage to pick up a few parts, & fit some piston rings before Christmas day with the family,
With that out of the way I spent a good part of the day Saturday cleaning up the shop, & getting an area clean enough for assembling an engine, then dragging parts off the shelf & setting them up for assembly,
That evening after the block & crank got a good cleaning my engine consultant showed up & give me a hand putting the short block together,
Sunday the short block was cleaned up, & a surprising amount of time was spent masking everything off before painting the block,
While waiting for paint to dry I started dragging parts out to assemble the heads, While measuring install height for the valve springs I noticed there was some janky stuff going on with my retainers/locks, looks like the package I ended up with had lots of mismatched locks,
I figured head assembly might have to wait for next days off, but a quick text to Jason & he had the set of 10* locks I needed in his stash, so the next morning I ran out to his place & picked them up, then continued with valve spring setup, by the end of the day I finally had valves & springs in these heads, this has been something I've really wanted to see for the last year,
Next days off I'll start with mocking up one head on the short block without a head gasket, & clay the chamber to make sure my valve to piston clearance is good, if that checks out the heads will go on, & maybe I can finally have all these parts that have been on the shelf for several years in one assembly.
...
I did manage to pick up a few parts, & fit some piston rings before Christmas day with the family,
With that out of the way I spent a good part of the day Saturday cleaning up the shop, & getting an area clean enough for assembling an engine, then dragging parts off the shelf & setting them up for assembly,
That evening after the block & crank got a good cleaning my engine consultant showed up & give me a hand putting the short block together,
Sunday the short block was cleaned up, & a surprising amount of time was spent masking everything off before painting the block,
While waiting for paint to dry I started dragging parts out to assemble the heads, While measuring install height for the valve springs I noticed there was some janky stuff going on with my retainers/locks, looks like the package I ended up with had lots of mismatched locks,
I figured head assembly might have to wait for next days off, but a quick text to Jason & he had the set of 10* locks I needed in his stash, so the next morning I ran out to his place & picked them up, then continued with valve spring setup, by the end of the day I finally had valves & springs in these heads, this has been something I've really wanted to see for the last year,
Next days off I'll start with mocking up one head on the short block without a head gasket, & clay the chamber to make sure my valve to piston clearance is good, if that checks out the heads will go on, & maybe I can finally have all these parts that have been on the shelf for several years in one assembly.
...
arse_sidewards
Red Skull Member
- Joined
- May 19, 2020
- Member Number
- 71
- Messages
- 8,613
The pipe plugs are a nice touch. I'm not sure why more people don't do that when rebuilding engines. It's not like pipe taps are particularly expensive.
WaterH
Well-known member
Nice work! I wish I could keep my shop that clean. Good thing I don't do internal engine or tranny work.
On the pipe plugs Arse mentioned, I assume he means at the freeze plugs. I've never seen that before. I guess that makes the block stronger? Is there any issue with leaking? (Not very thick for threads that big.)
On the pipe plugs Arse mentioned, I assume he means at the freeze plugs. I've never seen that before. I guess that makes the block stronger? Is there any issue with leaking? (Not very thick for threads that big.)
rattle_snake
Fuckwits
Are you going to be able to use the extra 16 head bolts that the A460 block has with the blue thunder heads?
Man that valley web is thick!
With flat tops w/ comp height that look close to deck, what is static compression ratio? Does this limit boost even on alcohol?
Man that valley web is thick!
With flat tops w/ comp height that look close to deck, what is static compression ratio? Does this limit boost even on alcohol?
Last edited:
Its an awesome trick to strengthen a block and eliminate potential leaks from those press in abortions they sell now a days.
Skipped_Link
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Member Number
- 540
- Messages
- 428
- Thread starter
- #192
As mentioned, yes the freeze plugs are replaced with pipe plugs, this is for block strength more than anything, if you look closely at the pic where you can see the pistons & the deck, several of the water ports in the deck are either plugged off or plugged & re-drilled to a smaller size, this too is for strength, both the deck modifications, & screw in freeze plugs are standard on the Motorsport A460 block,
The Blue Thunder heads are just a standard 10 bolt pattern so I can't take advantage of the extra holes yet. If I do ever out grow this combination, I will go with 18 bolt A-460 heads now that I have a block that can utilize them.
The Blue Thunder heads are just a standard 10 bolt pattern so I can't take advantage of the extra holes yet. If I do ever out grow this combination, I will go with 18 bolt A-460 heads now that I have a block that can utilize them.
ConwayMuddy
Dis member
Don't recall if you mentioned it or not. What are you going to use to dump fuel into the engine? Looking forward to seeing it once the 14-71 is mounted up.
tow behind tanker truck.
WaterH
Well-known member
Ha-ha, I was going to say 2" fuel line.
Skipped_Link
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Member Number
- 540
- Messages
- 428
- Thread starter
- #198
Enderle Bird catcher, (mechanical fuel injection)
I have the flow numbers in the "build book" I'll look next time I'm at the shop & post them up,
Skipped_Link
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Member Number
- 540
- Messages
- 428
- Thread starter
- #199
You mean a fly behind KC-135? A trailer would not make the sweet jumps our man Leroy does. You should see the videos.
I hear they're on surplus now...
Yup, can't wait to get a little more suspension under me,
Its even more impressive when you consider the fact that the buggy is on 54's and probably weights as much as a full size pickup. 
Skipped_Link
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Member Number
- 540
- Messages
- 428
- Thread starter
- #203
Took a quick look at the sheet last night, looks like about 380 cfm on the intake & 290 on the exhaust at .800 lift, the cam I am running is only about .740 lift which is still well above 370 & 270 cfm
Should still be right around 6800 lbs.Its even more impressive when you consider the fact that the buggy is on 54's and probably weights as much as a full size pickup.
Provience
Kill!
Firstram
Well-known member
Skipped_Link
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Member Number
- 540
- Messages
- 428
- Thread starter
- #206
Continuing on with the engine this week, Friday after work I decided I better clay the combustion chamber & make sure I had adequate piston to valve clearance,
It's a good thing thing I checked,
While the heads I am using are considered "Stock valve configuration" & should work with stock valve pockets in the pistons, they do in fact have the valves spread apart about .040 & run a slightly larger valve than a normal 460 or even a Cobrajet head, this combination as you can see lead to a radial clearance issue, even though there was plenty of room as far as depth goes,
I'm glad it was checked & the issue was caught, but it was definitely a kick to the nuts, & not the best way to start my days off,
It actually took quite a bit of time to decide how I wanted to resolve the issue,
In the end I needed more radial clearance, so that's what the pistons got.
Then checked again, this time with more desirable results,
It's a good thing thing I checked,
While the heads I am using are considered "Stock valve configuration" & should work with stock valve pockets in the pistons, they do in fact have the valves spread apart about .040 & run a slightly larger valve than a normal 460 or even a Cobrajet head, this combination as you can see lead to a radial clearance issue, even though there was plenty of room as far as depth goes,
I'm glad it was checked & the issue was caught, but it was definitely a kick to the nuts, & not the best way to start my days off,
It actually took quite a bit of time to decide how I wanted to resolve the issue,
In the end I needed more radial clearance, so that's what the pistons got.
Then checked again, this time with more desirable results,
Skipped_Link
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Member Number
- 540
- Messages
- 428
- Thread starter
- #207
With that mess out of the way I rolled the engine over, installed the Kaase oil pump, & drive rod, then set the height of the pickup in relation to the bottom of the pan,
End play & rod side clearance was previously checked during assembly, but it was double checked again,
A couple mock up runs were made on the front timing cover/motor plate arrangement, I found pan rail on the cover needed about .010 milled off to sit flat with the block, so that was done,
Also I do not want to run a timing cover gasket since the motor plate is sandwiched between the block & cover, so a "sealant groove" was added to the cover,
The front motor plate was mocked up & double checked for the last time before assembly, I knew there was going to be a clearance issue with the head gasket on the right side, (little tab sticks out past the block & head) so that was marked, then the plate was setup in the mill & a small groove was machined into the back side of the motor plate,
End play & rod side clearance was previously checked during assembly, but it was double checked again,
A couple mock up runs were made on the front timing cover/motor plate arrangement, I found pan rail on the cover needed about .010 milled off to sit flat with the block, so that was done,
Also I do not want to run a timing cover gasket since the motor plate is sandwiched between the block & cover, so a "sealant groove" was added to the cover,
The front motor plate was mocked up & double checked for the last time before assembly, I knew there was going to be a clearance issue with the head gasket on the right side, (little tab sticks out past the block & head) so that was marked, then the plate was setup in the mill & a small groove was machined into the back side of the motor plate,
Skipped_Link
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Member Number
- 540
- Messages
- 428
- Thread starter
- #208
With everything looking like it would fit correctly, the motor plate & timing cover were both installed, then the blower driver hub & alternator pulley were pressed onto the end of the crank & the Ouverson retainer washer & 5/8 crank bolt were installed,
I really like those 1 piece Felpro oil pan gaskets, the only down side is they are modeled off the later 460 block, they fit fine, but the corner bolts on the early, & aftermarket block are 5/16, & the later blocks are 1/4 bolts, so the bigger bolts don't fit through the steel inserts in the gasket, Luckily whoever made this timing cover used drilled/tapped the corner holes for 1/4"
Unfortunately the bolt holes are only about 3/8" deep, rather than fight with finding the perfect bolts, a couple long 1/4" set screws were used as studs in the aluminum cover,
The back of the block is a different story, still having the 5/16 threaded holes, I've heard of people drilling the inserts, but I've never had much luck with that, other cut the insert out, which kind of defeats the purpose of this gasket, I have successfully used the die grinder/burr & opened the holes up, but it's still a pain in the butt,
This time I thought maybe stepped studs would be the ticket, unfortunately I was unable to find any locally, so I built a couple,
The oil pan for this project is or was sold through Ford performance parts, (Ford motorsport) I ran across one on Ebay & after talking with a couple reputable builders online about it I decided to get it coming,
As soon as I opened the box I was happy with that purchase, those guys were right, The pan rails are clearanced for the 4 bolt main caps, large front sump (will be pointed toward the rear in my application) baffled with trap doors to keep oil around the pickup tube, bolt in windage tray, & a crank scraper at the pan rail, probably a $1,200 pan now days,
I think I may have a small fetish with fasteners. In the pre-purchased parts pile was a Milodon oil pan bolt kit, as previously noted, the 5/16 corner bolts were now not needed, & each 4 bolt main cap clearance modification lines up with a pan bolt hole , so there are spacers welded on so a guy can still get a wrench on the head (good idea really) so I needed long bolts there, After a quick rip to town I was surprise find the local hardware store had some nice flanged bolts that aside from color fit what I needed perfectly, on top of that, one drawer over they had flange nuts to go on my 1/4" corner studs,
...
I really like those 1 piece Felpro oil pan gaskets, the only down side is they are modeled off the later 460 block, they fit fine, but the corner bolts on the early, & aftermarket block are 5/16, & the later blocks are 1/4 bolts, so the bigger bolts don't fit through the steel inserts in the gasket, Luckily whoever made this timing cover used drilled/tapped the corner holes for 1/4"
Unfortunately the bolt holes are only about 3/8" deep, rather than fight with finding the perfect bolts, a couple long 1/4" set screws were used as studs in the aluminum cover,
The back of the block is a different story, still having the 5/16 threaded holes, I've heard of people drilling the inserts, but I've never had much luck with that, other cut the insert out, which kind of defeats the purpose of this gasket, I have successfully used the die grinder/burr & opened the holes up, but it's still a pain in the butt,
This time I thought maybe stepped studs would be the ticket, unfortunately I was unable to find any locally, so I built a couple,
The oil pan for this project is or was sold through Ford performance parts, (Ford motorsport) I ran across one on Ebay & after talking with a couple reputable builders online about it I decided to get it coming,
As soon as I opened the box I was happy with that purchase, those guys were right, The pan rails are clearanced for the 4 bolt main caps, large front sump (will be pointed toward the rear in my application) baffled with trap doors to keep oil around the pickup tube, bolt in windage tray, & a crank scraper at the pan rail, probably a $1,200 pan now days,
I think I may have a small fetish with fasteners. In the pre-purchased parts pile was a Milodon oil pan bolt kit, as previously noted, the 5/16 corner bolts were now not needed, & each 4 bolt main cap clearance modification lines up with a pan bolt hole , so there are spacers welded on so a guy can still get a wrench on the head (good idea really) so I needed long bolts there, After a quick rip to town I was surprise find the local hardware store had some nice flanged bolts that aside from color fit what I needed perfectly, on top of that, one drawer over they had flange nuts to go on my 1/4" corner studs,
...
WaterH
Well-known member
Top knotch work, as usual. When you checked the valve clearance, do you just set the head on and turn it by hand? Or do you have the valve out as far as it will go and just set the head on?
I'm obviously not an engine man. I've rebuilt a few engines, but never "built an engine". I've never checked the clearance like that. (All stock parts) Stupid question, is the valve full open when the piston is at the top? I'm suggesting maybe it wasn't going to hit if the valve was timed just so.
So is what you did considered increasing displacement or reducing compression? Lol
I'm obviously not an engine man. I've rebuilt a few engines, but never "built an engine". I've never checked the clearance like that. (All stock parts) Stupid question, is the valve full open when the piston is at the top? I'm suggesting maybe it wasn't going to hit if the valve was timed just so.
So is what you did considered increasing displacement or reducing compression? Lol
Skipped_Link
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Member Number
- 540
- Messages
- 428
- Thread starter
- #210
With the front & bottom of the engine sealed up, the engine was rolled back over again & I focused on the head installation,
This build is running Cometic brand MLS gaskets, From what I gather they are about the toughest gasket out there for sealing compression, sealing water & oil on the other hand,,, I've heard the stories of how the LS guys just slap them on, no special care taken for install & some even re-use them after pulling the heads off,
I have also read lots of horror stories about trying to get them to seal up, external water & oil leaks, etc.
All of my mock up stuff was done with a previously used MLS gasket, so the ones bought for this engine had never been out of the package they were sent in,
While doing the clay work in the combustion chambers I had the head on & off several times, At some point it caught my eye that the 4 rivets that hold the gasket together actually land on the deck of the block, while they are clear of the head, & not actually getting clamped between the two, they were close & it raised questions,
There was no doubt I would be pulling the rivets, but I was curious & asked around a bit, I was told by several people they were fine, & would not cause an issue, However Charlie Evans (who ported these heads, & uses Cometic MLS gaskets quite a lot) told me to pull the rivets, "they could cause the gaskets tweak against the deck & seep",
That confirmed I wasn't an idiot or just being anal about the rivets, next I just had to figure out how to remove them, they are a small this brass grommet style rivet, so they drill like butter, or could about be cut with finger nail clippers, my issue was contaminating the gasket or having them fall apart in the process, Testing with my used mockup gasket I found cutting the rivet with a small pair of dykes was easy, but it deformed the rivet enough it was very difficult to get out, (which I planned on actually cutting the rivet, install the heads, then pull the rest of the rivet out after the heads were torqued) so cutting them was not looking like a good option, drilling was a pain since the rivet would actually spin in the gasket very easily, on top of that there were tiny brass chips getting all over, possibly even between the gasket layers,
After a couple hours of scheming, testing, & head scratching I came up with a plan,
I started by cutting a small slit in the gasket packaging, poking just the tab of the gasket & rivet out of the plastic wrapper, them a small piece of masking tape was slit, slid over the tab, & folded over onto the packaging to make sure only the tab/rivet were exposed, the gasket was then clamped to the table using a cute little wood clamp, just enough pressure the hold the gasket in place & keep the layers firmly pressed together,
Forceps were used to hold the back side of the rivet while a small countersink bit was used in a cordless drill to cut the flange off the opposite side, as soon as the rivet was cut it would pop through the top layer of the gasket, my home made hole punch from another project made short work of pushing the rivet back trough the hole,
To make sure the rivets didn't fall out during install, (or the first one fall out while doing the other 3) I stripped about a 3" length of automotive wire, (each strand was probably only about .015-.020 diameter) took 2 strands & twisted them together, then run the copper strands through the center of the rivet & twisted the ends together until all the gasket layers were held tight,
The rivets on the lifter valley side are actually under the intake runners, so they are kind of hard to reach, for those I went ahead & pulled the entire rivet out, then wired the layers together in the same fashion,
The process was repeated on both gaskets, then after a very thorough cleaning on both the deck & the heads the gaskets & heads were set in place, after the studs were installed, & torqued, I used a small razor knife to cut the wire & pull in out of the tab, on the outer (exhaust side) the remainder of the rivet was also removed,
Here you can see what everything looked like right before setting the head on, notice how the rivets landed right on the extra material/bosses of the 18 head bolt a460 block, on a regular 460 passenger car/truck block this would not be an issue at all,
In the above pic you can also see what a pain it would have been to dig the rivet out of the lifter valley side,
Oddly enough, I never took a picture with the heads fully installed,
This build is running Cometic brand MLS gaskets, From what I gather they are about the toughest gasket out there for sealing compression, sealing water & oil on the other hand,,, I've heard the stories of how the LS guys just slap them on, no special care taken for install & some even re-use them after pulling the heads off,
I have also read lots of horror stories about trying to get them to seal up, external water & oil leaks, etc.
All of my mock up stuff was done with a previously used MLS gasket, so the ones bought for this engine had never been out of the package they were sent in,
While doing the clay work in the combustion chambers I had the head on & off several times, At some point it caught my eye that the 4 rivets that hold the gasket together actually land on the deck of the block, while they are clear of the head, & not actually getting clamped between the two, they were close & it raised questions,
There was no doubt I would be pulling the rivets, but I was curious & asked around a bit, I was told by several people they were fine, & would not cause an issue, However Charlie Evans (who ported these heads, & uses Cometic MLS gaskets quite a lot) told me to pull the rivets, "they could cause the gaskets tweak against the deck & seep",
That confirmed I wasn't an idiot or just being anal about the rivets, next I just had to figure out how to remove them, they are a small this brass grommet style rivet, so they drill like butter, or could about be cut with finger nail clippers, my issue was contaminating the gasket or having them fall apart in the process, Testing with my used mockup gasket I found cutting the rivet with a small pair of dykes was easy, but it deformed the rivet enough it was very difficult to get out, (which I planned on actually cutting the rivet, install the heads, then pull the rest of the rivet out after the heads were torqued) so cutting them was not looking like a good option, drilling was a pain since the rivet would actually spin in the gasket very easily, on top of that there were tiny brass chips getting all over, possibly even between the gasket layers,
After a couple hours of scheming, testing, & head scratching I came up with a plan,
I started by cutting a small slit in the gasket packaging, poking just the tab of the gasket & rivet out of the plastic wrapper, them a small piece of masking tape was slit, slid over the tab, & folded over onto the packaging to make sure only the tab/rivet were exposed, the gasket was then clamped to the table using a cute little wood clamp, just enough pressure the hold the gasket in place & keep the layers firmly pressed together,
Forceps were used to hold the back side of the rivet while a small countersink bit was used in a cordless drill to cut the flange off the opposite side, as soon as the rivet was cut it would pop through the top layer of the gasket, my home made hole punch from another project made short work of pushing the rivet back trough the hole,
To make sure the rivets didn't fall out during install, (or the first one fall out while doing the other 3) I stripped about a 3" length of automotive wire, (each strand was probably only about .015-.020 diameter) took 2 strands & twisted them together, then run the copper strands through the center of the rivet & twisted the ends together until all the gasket layers were held tight,
The rivets on the lifter valley side are actually under the intake runners, so they are kind of hard to reach, for those I went ahead & pulled the entire rivet out, then wired the layers together in the same fashion,
The process was repeated on both gaskets, then after a very thorough cleaning on both the deck & the heads the gaskets & heads were set in place, after the studs were installed, & torqued, I used a small razor knife to cut the wire & pull in out of the tab, on the outer (exhaust side) the remainder of the rivet was also removed,
Here you can see what everything looked like right before setting the head on, notice how the rivets landed right on the extra material/bosses of the 18 head bolt a460 block, on a regular 460 passenger car/truck block this would not be an issue at all,
In the above pic you can also see what a pain it would have been to dig the rivet out of the lifter valley side,
Oddly enough, I never took a picture with the heads fully installed,