Provience
Kill!
I know it's like useful and makes power and stuff and whatnot, but damn that thing just looks cool from every angle
I hope you are able to appreciate it for the art that it is despite being surrounded by it
Project: Midnight Panic
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I know it's like useful and makes power and stuff and whatnot, but damn that thing just looks cool from every angle
I hope you are able to appreciate it for the art that it is despite being surrounded by it
Java230
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I learn something in this thread every time I open it. Thanks.
Can I ask a dumb question now? I have zero mechanical injection knowledge, it seems the injectors are more or less like carb jets? The orifice sets the fuel amount? It appears that all the nozzles spray at the same time is that correct?
Can I ask a dumb question now? I have zero mechanical injection knowledge, it seems the injectors are more or less like carb jets? The orifice sets the fuel amount? It appears that all the nozzles spray at the same time is that correct?
Yes.
I am curios as to the reason for going with mechanical injection. Yes it is simple, but tuning it is also not nearly as precise as EFI. The safety factor on a blown motor is much much higher with EFI.
Skipped_Link
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Yes & no,
Yes the fuel goes through all nozzles most of the time, except idle,
No they do not fully control how much fuel the engine sees at all times,
The terminology with mechanical injection is a little different, & a guy that is used to tuning a carburetor has to just about throw what he knows out the window, or revisit both theories at the very least,
Mechanical injection does just that, "injects" fuel, rather than allow fuel to be "drafted" in, like a carb,
Technically the hat (air control on top) combined with the barrel valve (black square block on the lower front corner of the hat) & hat nozzles is referred to as the "injector",
The barrel valve controls both fuel flow & return, inside the BV is 2 main components, the spool & the pill, on the outside is the shaft of the spool (with a mechanical link to the birdies), a couple delivery fittings & the "idle bypass check valve"
The pump is going to move X amount of fuel, (This pump is a Enderle 110, & I believe it is 13.4gal/min at a set RPM) that's going to deliver fuel to the BV, at idle fuel is restricted by a slot in the spool, the size of this slot & the amount exposed to the fuel passage combined with "flow/pressure at idle" determines how much fuel goes to the "nozzles" & into the engine, the rest is directed through the "idle bypass check valve" (which is set to 5-7psi), this pressure crates a constant of sorts, & force fuel through the slot in the spool,
Also worth noting, there are two sets of nozzles, one set in the hat, & one set in the intake, (Port nozzles) Each set has their own distribution block, for the hat this block is normally mounted on the back of the hat & fuel flows freely from the BV to this block, The Port nozzle block (on mine mounted at the back of the manifold) also gets fuel from the BV, but it has to pass through an 8-10 psi check valve first, So at idle (5psi) there will be no fuel going to the ports.
Now during acceleration, the slot in the spool is tapered so the more you open the birdies, the wider the slot gets allowing more fuel to be delivered to the nozzles, kind of like an accelerator pump on a carb,
At a set point the spool goes full flow to the nozzles, blocking off the idle passage, with the idle passage blocked off, & the spool wide open, it's sending everything it can to the nozzles, & with pressure easily exceeding 8-10 psi, fuel is also been fed to the port nozzles,
This is where the "pill" comes in, the pill or "Main bypass jet" is a changeable jet that is in the return circuit, so if the engine is running lean at full throttle, you put a smaller "pill" in it, forcing more fuel to the nozzles, if it is running rich, you would put a bigger "pill" in it to allow more fuel to return to the fuel tank, (backwards from a carburetor right?)
In short the Injector, (Hat & BV) along with the pump, determine how much fuel is going to the engine, the nozzles, & distribution blocks determine where it goes in the engine, they are tunable (different sizes) & used to dictate how much goes through the hat/blower, how much goes to the ports, & even how much goes to each port,
On my setup the Hat has six .054 nozzles, & two .050 in the back of the blower, (these also serve to cool the blower). The ports are stepped down in size from front to back, front cylinders are .046, next two are .044, then .042, & finally the back two cylinders are .040, (this has to do with the blower being a front discharge/retro blower)
Believe it or not, that is the extreme basics of the whole deal, to get more in depth a guy could talk about idle tuning, (both adjusting the mechanical link between the BV & birdies & how far the birdies are open at idle). Or even "high speed bypass" which is another bypass pill to dump more fuel back to the tank to lean out the top end out, kind of like a power valve on a Holley.
Sorry if "yes & no" would have worked for an answer,
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Skipped_Link
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I love the EFI on the buggy, But that is a whole different world from this trucks purpose,
Honestly on this truck I just want something dead reliable, & do not want to rely on a computer for it to run,
Java230
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Yes & no,
Yes the fuel goes through all nozzles most of the time, except idle,
No they do not fully control how much fuel the engine sees at all times,
The terminology with mechanical injection is a little different, & a guy that is used to tuning a carburetor has to just about throw what he knows out the window, or revisit both theories at the very least,
Mechanical injection does just that, "injects" fuel, rather than allow fuel to be "drafted" in, like a carb,
Technically the hat (air control on top) combined with the barrel valve (black square block on the lower front corner of the hat) & hat nozzles is referred to as the "injector",
The barrel valve controls both fuel flow & return, inside the BV is 2 main components, the spool & the pill, on the outside is the shaft of the spool (with a mechanical link to the birdies), a couple delivery fittings & the "idle bypass check valve"
The pump is going to move X amount of fuel, (This pump is a Enderle 110, & I believe it is 13.4gal/min at a set RPM) that's going to deliver fuel to the BV, at idle fuel is restricted by a slot in the spool, the size of this slot & the amount exposed to the fuel passage combined with "flow/pressure at idle" determines how much fuel goes to the "nozzles" & into the engine, the rest is directed through the "idle bypass check valve" (which is set to 5-7psi), this pressure crates a constant of sorts, & force fuel through the slot in the spool,
Also worth noting, there are two sets of nozzles, one set in the hat, & one set in the intake, (Port nozzles) Each set has their own distribution block, for the hat this block is normally mounted on the back of the hat & fuel flows freely from the BV to this block, The Port nozzle block (on mine mounted at the back of the manifold) also gets fuel from the BV, but it has to pass through an 8-10 psi check valve first, So at idle (5psi) there will be no fuel going to the ports.
Now during acceleration, the slot in the spool is tapered so the more you open the birdies, the wider the slot gets allowing more fuel to be delivered to the nozzles, kind of like an accelerator pump on a carb,
At a set point the spool goes full flow to the nozzles, blocking off the idle passage, with the idle passage blocked off, & the spool wide open, it's sending everything it can to the nozzles, & with pressure easily exceeding 8-10 psi, fuel is also been fed to the port nozzles,
This is where the "pill" comes in, the pill or "Main bypass jet" is a changeable jet that is in the return circuit, so if the engine is running lean at full throttle, you put a smaller "pill" in it, forcing more fuel to the nozzles, if it is running rich, you would put a bigger "pill" in it to allow more fuel to return to the fuel tank, (backwards from a carburetor right?)
In short the Injector, (Hat & BV) along with the pump, determine how much fuel is going to the engine, the nozzles, & distribution blocks determine where it goes in the engine, they are tunable (different sizes) & used to dictate how much goes through the hat/blower, how much goes to the ports, & even how much goes to each port,
On my setup the Hat has six .054 nozzles, & two .050 in the back of the blower, (these also serve to cool the blower). The ports are stepped down in size from front to back, front cylinders are .046, next two are .044, then .042, & finally the back two cylinders are .040, (this has to do with the blower being a front discharge/retro blower)
Believe it or not, that is the extreme basics of the whole deal, to get more in depth a guy could talk about idle tuning, (both adjusting the mechanical link between the BV & birdies & how far the birdies are open at idle). Or even "high speed bypass" which is another bypass pill to dump more fuel back to the tank to lean out the top end out, kind of like a power valve on a Holley.
Sorry if "yes & no" would have worked for an answer,
Thank you! I think I get the basic jist of it kinda
I didn't realize the black this was a valve, I just thought it was a distribution block. Makes more sense now I think.
ConwayMuddy
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So many new wrinkles in my brain because of this thread. I may go from window licker to paste taster yet.
rattle_snake
Fuckwits
Thanks for the quick tutorial. I was confused why the hat distribution block had lines going into blower rear bearing housing. Are the bearings exposed to this fuel for cooling?
How do you measure AFR or know if lean/rich? Fuel flow meter for consumption rate, O2 sensor, read plugs or ?
How do you measure AFR or know if lean/rich? Fuel flow meter for consumption rate, O2 sensor, read plugs or ?
Skipped_Link
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The bearings are grease filled, so not fuel directly to the bearings, the fuel back there is just cooling the case & rotors back where they're not getting directly sprayed by the hat nozzles,
As for tuning, reading plugs would be a basic first step, O2 in the header will work like anything else for a general idea, so guys actually run a pyro in each primary & tune each cylinder off that, Mine will never be on the ragged edge, I'll run an O2 for general monitoring, & read plugs for tuning, it will likely always be a little fat & the timing a little slow,
Skipped_Link
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Got off to kind of a slow start this days off, I had been talking with a guy & his wife about a couple trailers they had for sale, Since the northern California weather had been holding out the last week, & was looking good for my first day off, then crap after that, I decided to run up & drag one home, hopefully for a future project,
A little bit of of an adventure getting the trailer out of there, but only lost one tire on the way home, & no other casualties, So it made for a long, but really good day,
Once back home I was ready to dig back into this engine project, Technically the engine is finished, I just wanted to finish up a few accessory items while it's out of the truck,
The big one was alternator bracket, I previously bought a 75A Denso cased "mini" alternator,
To start it needed converted from Vee pulley to serpentine, turns out the Denso alt. has kind of an odd shaft size, I specifically bought a pulley that listed it came with an adapter to fit this alternator, I figured if things don't pan out at least the new pulley would fit other applications, The pulley itself is pretty nice, the adapter as predicted was just a small spacer that fits the alt. shaft size & I.D. of the pulley.
While the finish was nice, the fit was a bit sloppy for me, So the first chip to hit the machine room floor this week was building a new adapter,
I quickly checked to see if I needed that shoulder for spacing, the back side of the pulley cleared the alt. case by plenty, & I figured the farther back on the shaft the better, so that was omitted,
with very little effort the new adapter was pressed into the pulley, & then slid onto the shaft,
Here's where that shoulder would have came in handy, the threads fell short of the nut reaching the pulley, a washer could have fixed that easy enough, but I had previously bought an odd metric flanged nut just so I wouldn't have to run a washer, as a matter of fact I bought 10 nuts, because that's the minimum order quantity form McMaster,
Easy enough, just make the threads in the nut not reach so far.
Now for the mounting bracket, even for it's small size the alternator is to long to fit directly in front of the motor plate, & hanging it under the motor plate was just getting to close to the upper link bar at full bump, (looked like plenty of room there, until holing parts in place & realizing how big two little points makes a small part)
I'm sure a scalloped notch in the motor plate would have solved that issue, but I'll keep that as a backup plan,
I decided to tie the alternator bracket & the crank support bracket into each other, with a rough idea of what I wanted, & some aluminum, a mess was made in the machine room,
Left overs from the carrier bearing mount,
A few minutes later,
The back side, there is a dowel pin that locates one corner of the bracket into a blind hole in the motor plate that was originally drilled for the crank support stand-off. The threaded hole will have a bolt that holds the bracket to the motor plate from the back side using the second crank support stand-off, & the larger unthreaded hole will have a stud from a threaded hole in the block, through the motor plate, through this hole, & have it's own stand-off that will be used for the alternator pivot point,
A little bit of of an adventure getting the trailer out of there, but only lost one tire on the way home, & no other casualties, So it made for a long, but really good day,
Once back home I was ready to dig back into this engine project, Technically the engine is finished, I just wanted to finish up a few accessory items while it's out of the truck,
The big one was alternator bracket, I previously bought a 75A Denso cased "mini" alternator,
To start it needed converted from Vee pulley to serpentine, turns out the Denso alt. has kind of an odd shaft size, I specifically bought a pulley that listed it came with an adapter to fit this alternator, I figured if things don't pan out at least the new pulley would fit other applications, The pulley itself is pretty nice, the adapter as predicted was just a small spacer that fits the alt. shaft size & I.D. of the pulley.
While the finish was nice, the fit was a bit sloppy for me, So the first chip to hit the machine room floor this week was building a new adapter,
I quickly checked to see if I needed that shoulder for spacing, the back side of the pulley cleared the alt. case by plenty, & I figured the farther back on the shaft the better, so that was omitted,
with very little effort the new adapter was pressed into the pulley, & then slid onto the shaft,
Here's where that shoulder would have came in handy, the threads fell short of the nut reaching the pulley, a washer could have fixed that easy enough, but I had previously bought an odd metric flanged nut just so I wouldn't have to run a washer, as a matter of fact I bought 10 nuts, because that's the minimum order quantity form McMaster,
Easy enough, just make the threads in the nut not reach so far.
Now for the mounting bracket, even for it's small size the alternator is to long to fit directly in front of the motor plate, & hanging it under the motor plate was just getting to close to the upper link bar at full bump, (looked like plenty of room there, until holing parts in place & realizing how big two little points makes a small part)
I'm sure a scalloped notch in the motor plate would have solved that issue, but I'll keep that as a backup plan,
I decided to tie the alternator bracket & the crank support bracket into each other, with a rough idea of what I wanted, & some aluminum, a mess was made in the machine room,
Left overs from the carrier bearing mount,
A few minutes later,
The back side, there is a dowel pin that locates one corner of the bracket into a blind hole in the motor plate that was originally drilled for the crank support stand-off. The threaded hole will have a bolt that holds the bracket to the motor plate from the back side using the second crank support stand-off, & the larger unthreaded hole will have a stud from a threaded hole in the block, through the motor plate, through this hole, & have it's own stand-off that will be used for the alternator pivot point,
Sterlingfire
ignant
You got a real nice rig there mister!
If you do it right, the ship on the trailer could be changed to a middle finger for fun
It's good to keep seeing updates. Glad you're able to keep at it. This thing is bad ass
If you do it right, the ship on the trailer could be changed to a middle finger for fun
It's good to keep seeing updates. Glad you're able to keep at it. This thing is bad ass
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You got a real nice rig there mister!
If you do it right, the ship on the trailer could be changed to a middle finger for fun
It's good to keep seeing updates. Glad you're able to keep at it. This thing is bad ass
Fuck'n right that rig is sick. After seeing that, and watching this build, you should have got a trailer with glass sides so you can see this build in the back.
bad ass
Skipped_Link
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Obviously pulley line up determines how far the alternator is spaced out, after a few measurements I had a spacer length, but rather than a spacer a double threaded stand off was built, along with a 7/16 stud, (couldn't bring myself to use all-thread)
As mentioned in the last post the stud threads into the block, & passes through both the motor plate & this bracket, the stand off is then threaded onto the stud & torqued clamping the assembly together,
Jumping to the other sided of the motor plate, I needed stand-offs to hold the crank support/steering pump mount, this length was determined by pushing the support bearing tight up against the support mandrel, taking a measurement & rounding up to the next even number, this allowed plenty of room for end float in the crank, Hate to bolt this all together & be cramming the crank into the thrust bearing,
1" hex 7075 bar stock was whittled down to the correct length, both ends were drilled & tapped, one end bolts to the motor plate from the back side, the other has bolts pass though the crank support bearing/steering pump bracket,
I needed that stand off length to determine how thick to make the second part of the alternator bracket so not additional spacers were needed, .538" was the number, I just happened to have a scrap piece of 5/8" aluminum plate on hand, after cutting it down to the required thickness, putting the correct hole pattern in it, & dressing it up a bit, here's what I ended up with,
Tanking the original measurement, minus the thickness of bracket A, & bracket B, another pair of stand-offs were made for the crank support/steering pump bracket, these are threaded on to the first bracket that is bolted/doweled to the motor plate using short studs between the two, Then like the other side, bolts pass through the crank support, but also through the second alternator bracket, & thread into the stand-offs,
Finally the pivot bolt passes through the second bracket, through the alternator, & threads into the first spacer/stand-off that was built,
As mentioned in the last post the stud threads into the block, & passes through both the motor plate & this bracket, the stand off is then threaded onto the stud & torqued clamping the assembly together,
Jumping to the other sided of the motor plate, I needed stand-offs to hold the crank support/steering pump mount, this length was determined by pushing the support bearing tight up against the support mandrel, taking a measurement & rounding up to the next even number, this allowed plenty of room for end float in the crank, Hate to bolt this all together & be cramming the crank into the thrust bearing,
1" hex 7075 bar stock was whittled down to the correct length, both ends were drilled & tapped, one end bolts to the motor plate from the back side, the other has bolts pass though the crank support bearing/steering pump bracket,
I needed that stand off length to determine how thick to make the second part of the alternator bracket so not additional spacers were needed, .538" was the number, I just happened to have a scrap piece of 5/8" aluminum plate on hand, after cutting it down to the required thickness, putting the correct hole pattern in it, & dressing it up a bit, here's what I ended up with,
Tanking the original measurement, minus the thickness of bracket A, & bracket B, another pair of stand-offs were made for the crank support/steering pump bracket, these are threaded on to the first bracket that is bolted/doweled to the motor plate using short studs between the two, Then like the other side, bolts pass through the crank support, but also through the second alternator bracket, & thread into the stand-offs,
Finally the pivot bolt passes through the second bracket, through the alternator, & threads into the first spacer/stand-off that was built,
Skipped_Link
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Once installed I will likely do a tab off the chassis & build a turnbuckle for tensioning the belt,
Another little project I worked on in the middle of alternator mounting was a timing pointer, Knowing things would get cluttered where a stock one would have been, I based the TDC mark on the opposite side of the engine, using the machined flat bottom portion of the timing cover as a reference to mark the crank pulley, going off that a tab was built that registers on the flat & uses an existing bolt to hold it in place,
The mounting hole was slotted so it could easily be slid back out of the way for changing the alternator belt,
One other little detail I had to take care of before actually assembling everything, hopefully for good, was pinning the steering pump drive adapter,
The steering pump I am running uses a splined input shaft, & when I purchased the pump I also got the matching drive adapter, the adapter was machined down to a slight press fit into the crank support mandrel, it also got dual 1/4 keyways cut to match the existing keyways in the mandrel, while that is all good for driving the pump, I did not want to chance the adapter walking out of the support mandrel, so a 1/16" roll pin was added,
If the splines ever wear out on the adapter, the roll pin can be driven all the way through into the splined bore, & then the adapter pressed out of the support mandrel,
I started working on a couple other small brackets, but mostly just the planning stages, I'll probably have at least another set of days off tied up in that stuff before actually sliding the engine in.
But it's getting closer.
Another little project I worked on in the middle of alternator mounting was a timing pointer, Knowing things would get cluttered where a stock one would have been, I based the TDC mark on the opposite side of the engine, using the machined flat bottom portion of the timing cover as a reference to mark the crank pulley, going off that a tab was built that registers on the flat & uses an existing bolt to hold it in place,
The mounting hole was slotted so it could easily be slid back out of the way for changing the alternator belt,
One other little detail I had to take care of before actually assembling everything, hopefully for good, was pinning the steering pump drive adapter,
The steering pump I am running uses a splined input shaft, & when I purchased the pump I also got the matching drive adapter, the adapter was machined down to a slight press fit into the crank support mandrel, it also got dual 1/4 keyways cut to match the existing keyways in the mandrel, while that is all good for driving the pump, I did not want to chance the adapter walking out of the support mandrel, so a 1/16" roll pin was added,
If the splines ever wear out on the adapter, the roll pin can be driven all the way through into the splined bore, & then the adapter pressed out of the support mandrel,
I started working on a couple other small brackets, but mostly just the planning stages, I'll probably have at least another set of days off tied up in that stuff before actually sliding the engine in.
But it's getting closer.
Provience
Kill!
looks good!
You don't ever run into battery issues with electric waterpump, electric fans, (with probably a decent sized starter) and a 75A alternator?
You don't ever run into battery issues with electric waterpump, electric fans, (with probably a decent sized starter) and a 75A alternator?
The Unknown
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No tech to add and you may get tired or hearing it but beautiful work. I love the detailed posts and the fact that you are touching/improving/building everything. Very impressive.
Skipped_Link
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This would probably be the minimum I would try for alt/amperage, just keep in mind it is not a trail rig that will be out running all day long, with that said I certainly do not want to have to charge it between rounds/runs,
I'm kind of thinking I may setup the fan & water pump on a need to run system, (temp switch so they only kick on when a certain temperature is reached)
I would say my biggest power draw will be the rear steer pump, but with intermittent use hopefully dual batteries will be a big enough buffer for that,
If it turns out that 75 amps just isn't enough they make higher amp alternators in the same case design,
I always like to hear opinions from other folks with an interest in mechanical stuff, good or bad,
While the point of the project is to see what I can do & take pride in building most of it, I do enjoy the rare off the shelf part that fits,
Provience
Kill!
This would probably be the minimum I would try for alt/amperage, just keep in mind it is not a trail rig that will be out running all day long, with that said I certainly do not want to have to charge it between rounds/runs,
I'm kind of thinking I may setup the fan & water pump on a need to run system, (temp switch so they only kick on when a certain temperature is reached)
I would say my biggest power draw will be the rear steer pump, but with intermittent use hopefully dual batteries will be a big enough buffer for that,
If it turns out that 75 amps just isn't enough they make higher amp alternators in the same case design,
I always like to hear opinions from other folks with an interest in mechanical stuff, good or bad,
While the point of the project is to see what I can do & take pride in building most of it, I do enjoy the rare off the shelf part that fits,
interesting. i'm a little surprised that you aren't running the rear control off the same pump as the front. probably easier to package with a separate unit and then no issues at whatever speed for flow/pressure to either axle.
Skipped_Link
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I'm interested for sure.
Correct, I want to try one with a constant flow, also it would be nice if there's a front pump failure, or the truck is completely dead in the water at least the rear will turn,
WaterH
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Is that the way the monster buggy is? How big is the hydro pump? Have you tested the turn speed yet? I suppose all my answers are a few scrolls back. Lol.
Skipped_Link
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The buggy runs 2 P-pumps, one for the front, the second for the rear,
I have installed this electric pump on a couple rigs.
here is a video testing the same pump I’m running on this project.
https://youtu.be/dsTnjYtqXPY
in this vid it is running on a 16 volt system,
I have also helped setup the same pump using a series parallel relay for the pump & run it at 24 volts, (fast & powerful)
I have a series parallel relay here for this project I may use as well.
Stephen Wilson
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I always wondered how you handle charging on a 16V system, I haven't seen any 16V alternators. Do you have to use a 24V alt and regulate it down ?
Skipped_Link
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No there's a few places that build the alternators, the buggy in the video I was supplied the alternator, &during the build I did not care for the mounting, I talked to the owner & asked if we could get anything different, a few days later he brought over a different front half of the case & I just swapped it, I'm guessing it's a common case with a few hop up parts,
Look into the drag racing stuff, 16 volt is actually pretty common there,
Stephen Wilson
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Yeah, that's where I've seen the 12V/16V batteries. I always assumed for drag racing they didn't worry about a 16V Alternator, and just relied on the special battery chargers. It seems like running a winch on 16V would add efficiency, and compensate for wiring resistance and voltage drop.
Bebop
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That's a badass idea !
Super common in Europe to run winches like so, but never even crossed my mind for electric rear steer.
You just helped make my mind on runing electric on my rear steer axle.
The build is outstanding, but on top of that, sharing the details in this thread and your willingness to not hide secrets is amazing. Thanks.