Modern professionalism and work ethic - Am I getting old or??

[Sandy Johnson]

Sure looks to me like taxes are lower when there's a few people that the buck undeniably stops with and who are ultimately responsible for everything than this finger-pointing nominally elected politician bullshit we have in the US.

That's why everyone is falling all over themselves to move there and reap the benefits.

 

[[486]]

You could have just said “apathy” and saved some typing.

But is it though?

 

[FJC11]

That's why everyone is falling all over themselves to move there and reap the benefits.

You spelled Handouts wrong.

 

[Grendel]

I spoke to 1 lawyer in my state, they said we are a neutral state, we dont get involved in agreements you set with your employer, if they say its based on the law in their state. It is, talk to a lawyer in that state.

So I did, then I was told I was SOL. I will see what happens to the guy who just got a letter in the mail with threats.

I am not ready to potentially waste money on something I could lose on, especially if I am still employed. If I was let go, thats a different story.

You cannot waive your rights, in your state.

Right to work is one of those.

Seems like it's overly restrictive.

Did they pay for your schooling or something?

 

[RunningProblem]

Figured out it was fortinet huh? I guess it was pretty obvious in my rant. Maybe my issue is layers of government BS in that case. We've got 2 HA paired firewalls and some core switches that actually get funded by a larger state agency for us. They do this for state organizations all across California, and while we could choose to pay our own way, the savings is too good. Anyway, this agency contracts a managed security services vendor provider to support that hardware(the 1st and 2nd tier support guys I talked to). They handle the support contracts on our hardware, so even though I knew the firewall was dead, I couldn't RMA it myself through fortinet. It's under a special contract. This is also why I can't talk to fortinet directly, and this dude has to get a fortinet engineer on a conference call instead. Basically, that lady sucked, but I can't do shit about it because the vendor is actually their customer, not me.

I did go back and let the managed security services guys know that whole thing sucked. I'm still technically not the entity paying their bills, but I'm kinda-sorta their customer.

We have two other sites with fortinet firewalls and my government rep over there has been awesome.

It just seems like there are more and more people not giving enough of a fawk to be successful at what they're doing. I've got more stories like these about other aspects of the industry, and damn it's getting hard to find reliable people anymore.

This sounds more like a problem with wanting to pay the lowest bill than people’s work. I had a similar setup and any idea of suggest for improvement ‘was on a list’ and we ‘didn’t have money’ due to nothing being free. The truth was the grant use to build it to where it was is gone, they never hired their own programmer, and our maintenance was just overseeing it if something broke. At that point it’s down until they fix it, and it didn’t break much.


There is also the flip side of contractors hiring younger kids as ‘consultants’ and they don’t have loads of experience. Everyone has to start somewhere. No everyone gets to start with 5 years of experience and it seems like the new bar is 7-10 years direct experience with proprietary programs/equipment, willing ness to travel, and $25/he before benefits and 401(k).


With the 9a-3p work hour commitment you’re getting the raw end of the deal. Either she didn’t know you had 24 hour service, or she wasn’t the person working overnights. If you’re actually supposed to have 24 hour protection then get it otherwise you’re being give 1/3 of what you’re paying for, and maybe you’re not saving anything.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

This sounds more like a problem with wanting to pay the lowest bill than people’s work. I had a similar setup and any idea of suggest for improvement ‘was on a list’ and we ‘didn’t have money’ due to nothing being free. The truth was the grant use to build it to where it was is gone, they never hired their own programmer, and our maintenance was just overseeing it if something broke. At that point it’s down until they fix it, and it didn’t break much.


There is also the flip side of contractors hiring younger kids as ‘consultants’ and they don’t have loads of experience. Everyone has to start somewhere. No everyone gets to start with 5 years of experience and it seems like the new bar is 7-10 years direct experience with proprietary programs/equipment, willing ness to travel, and $25/he before benefits and 401(k).

Yeah, I don't know what contracts the state of california had with them, but I do know that when I was in the private sector, we used to fall all over ourselves to get government contracts.

I would have been able to get better results if I was on the actual paying account.

With the 9a-3p work hour commitment you’re getting the raw end of the deal. Either she didn’t know you had 24 hour service, or she wasn’t the person working overnights. If you’re actually supposed to have 24 hour protection then get it otherwise you’re being give 1/3 of what you’re paying for, and maybe you’re not saving anything.

Oh I know. I'm fairly certain we have 24x7 service, and it's a P1 when there's actually services down, but for me to call them out on it means I had to run it up a very very long chain before they'll get any feedback. It felt more like she just didn't give a shit. I started this thread because I'm getting that feeling from more and more people in a professional setting.

On the flip side, I just worked with some penetration testing white hat hacker types on our internal security and they were amazing. Small business, so that might make a difference.

Oh yeah, and there's this one support dude at Kemp/Progressive/whatever their name is now that gives 110% every time I talk to him.

 

[RunningProblem]

Sandy Johnson why did you ‘fall all over yourself a’ for a government contract? Did you know it was easy and no one cared about the quality of work?

This woman told you she worked 9a-3p. You have her for 6 hours. Not 24. She doesn’t give a shit because her contract with her employer probably says nothing about helping you at 7pm. Now think about her dealing with folks like you for 12 years, going the extra mile for 6 of them and finally saying ‘fuck it. I’m not getting paid extra to help this guy on my time’ and start to realize you aren’t her priority. She wants to do the work and go home. You bitching about 24 hour service means nothing to her.


After reading this thread I learned a lot. Mostly Management will always expect more from you than you put in.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Sandy Johnson why did you ‘fall all over yourself a’ for a government contract? Did you know it was easy and no one cared about the quality of work?

This woman told you she worked 9a-3p. You have her for 6 hours. Not 24. She doesn’t give a shit because her contract with her employer probably says nothing about helping you at 7pm. Now think about her dealing with folks like you for 12 years, going the extra mile for 6 of them and finally saying ‘fuck it. I’m not getting paid extra to help this guy on my time’ and start to realize you aren’t her priority. She wants to do the work and go home. You bitching about 24 hour service means nothing to her.


After reading this thread I learned a lot. Mostly Management will always expect more from you than you put in.

Doesn't seem like you work in the tech industry.

We used to fall all over ourselves to get a government contract because they were usually high dollar and high volume, lasted longer than others, and very stable. It may be late, but you can always count on the government to pay their bills.

 

[grumpy356]

Yeah, I don't know what contracts the state of california had with them, but I do know that when I was in the private sector, we used to fall all over ourselves to get government contracts.

At one time it was worth it.

NOW... Fuck a governemnt contract.

They want to set the wage, the per-diem, add to that the safety nazi BS, the bureaucratic bullshit, and the decision by committee ... Not worth even quoting at this point.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

At one time it was worth it.

I'll admit the last time I was in the private sector was over 15 years ago

 

[Tin Roof]

At one time it was worth it.

NOW... Fuck a governemnt contract.

They want to set the wage, the per-diem, add to that the safety nazi BS, the bureaucratic bullshit, and the decision by committee ... Not worth even quoting at this point.

So much truth to this. I avoid .gov contracts as much as possible. The expectations are unrealistic.

 

[Motorcharge]

At one time it was worth it.

NOW... Fuck a governemnt contract.

They want to set the wage, the per-diem, add to that the safety nazi BS, the bureaucratic bullshit, and the decision by committee ... Not worth even quoting at this point.

This. We actively avoid anything government related and anything I bid with HUD involvement or Davis-Beacon gets a huge aggrivation tax added to it because of the shear amount of compliance and documentation bullshit we have to deal with.

Anything military or prison related at flat out reject. It's hard to get anyone willing to do work in either and if you do manage to land and staff those they want every single piece of material you bring in and use documented down to individual nail and screw counts. We could make 500% on those jobs and it's not worth the bullshit.

 

[RunningProblem]

Doesn't seem like you work in the tech industry.

We used to fall all over ourselves to get a government contract because they were usually high dollar and high volume, lasted longer than others, and very stable. It may be late, but you can always count on the government to pay their bills.

Government worker. I don’t have to work hard. We pay people lots of money to do that so we don’t have to.
🖕😃🖕

 

[RunningProblem]

I'll admit the last time I was in the private sector was over 15 years ago

Biggest problem with management right here. Too far removed yet still think it is relevant.

‘Back in my day…before the economic recession you learned about in history class right after discussing 9/11….’

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Government worker. I don’t have to work hard. We pay people lots of money to do that so we don’t have to.
🖕😃🖕

It's funny that you're saying that to the guy who was willing to put in the extra hours while getting told by the private sector that they were off at 3.

Biggest problem with management right here. Too far removed yet still think it is relevant.

‘Back in my day…before the economic recession you learned about in history class right after discussing 9/11….’

I like the part where you think I'm management or that I'm somehow not also running projects with other companies anymore just because I work for the government. You might have an unrealistic view of how the whole process works that's skewing your opinions.

Here's mainly what I do: System administrator - Wikipedia

But we're also a small shop compared to many corporate sites, so I also get to wear the network admin, security admin, and a little bit of database admin hats.

 

[RunningProblem]

Sandy Johnson you put in the extra hours and got promoted. Ten years ago someone called it in saying ‘Sandy is getting the promotion’ and stopped giving a fuck. It doesn’t surprise me anyone with ‘Administrator’ in their title is not pleased with the performance and dedication to work others have. Some folks wear one had and leave with as many ‘fucks’ as they showed up with.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

It doesn’t surprise me anyone with ‘Administrator’ in their title is not pleased with the performance and dedication to work others have.

That assumption right there would tell anyone in the IT industry that you have no clue what you're talking about. I'm not in charge of people, except for a couple of junior sys admins. They're in charge of no one. We're basically technology janitors.

 

[DVanVorous]

At one time it was worth it.

NOW... Fuck a governemnt contract.

They want to set the wage, the per-diem, add to that the safety nazi BS, the bureaucratic bullshit, and the decision by committee ... Not worth even quoting at this point.

That really depends on which part of the .gov. one deals with. I worked on SBIR, DoD and DoE carve out contracts for the majority of my career as a Design ME/Project manager. Never had to deal with that type draconian craziness.

We set the prices and timelines to complete...we did have quarterly and annual progress meetings with the clients but that was the extent of interaction. Only time it got into the cost/timeline was when it turned from R&D/prototype into a commercial program. As a sole source contract (yes they do exist) we wrote the pricing and possible changes with increased capacity over time. Did create a panic when one company I worked for changed directions and we had to give up all the specialized hardware we developed (on their dime) to the .gov so they could set someone else up to finish out the program.

 

[grumpy356]

That really depends on which part of the .gov. one deals with. I worked on SBIR, DoD and DoE carve out contracts for the majority of my career as a Design ME/Project manager. Never had to deal with that type draconian craziness.

We set the prices and timelines to complete...we did have quarterly and annual progress meetings with the clients but that was the extent of interaction. Only time it got into the cost/timeline was when it turned from R&D/prototype into a commercial program. As a sole source contract (yes they do exist) we wrote the pricing and possible changes with increased capacity over time. Did create a panic when one company I worked for changed directions and we had to give up all the specialized hardware we developed (on their dime) to the .gov so they could set someone else up to finish out the program.

So a national lab called and was having problems with a piece of equipment.
At this point, the equipment manufacture apparently had fired them as a customer and wouldn’t really service the account.

we spent some time supporting them over the phone, their in-house staff could not fix it. The equipment manufacturer was not supporting them, and they requested “sending out one of my technicians.

So to fly a tech out there, hotel, Perdiem, rental car,… All that shit… I quoted him 7500.
Not a total fuck you, but let’s just say it covered my cost.

Now they require it to be itemize. Fucked up not telling them no immediately. But I’m faced with having to back into a number.

I did have some fuck ups in this encounter, the first being… I stated in the original quote that “one hour of safety and orientation was included in any additional safety training would be billed at an hourly rate”. And that may have opened the door I should’ve left shut, but I have a feeling that door was open anyway.


So now I have the government telling me what they’ll pay for my per diem, what they’ll pay for my airfare, what they’ll pay for my hotel, in addition to the man our that is going to require just for the safety and orientation bullshit

I don’t care if you have the equipment fixed or not. $7500 doesn’t affect my companies profitability at all and nobody else will deal with them.

Maybe $7500 is a lot of money…. I don’t know… I’m out of touch, but you need me, you came to me, pay it or don’t, but don’t try to dictate how much I can quote.

This is a MINOR issue with government work, but it’s always something.

 

[RunningProblem]

That assumption right there would tell anyone in the IT industry that you have no clue what you're talking about. I'm not in charge of people, except for a couple of junior sys admins. They're in charge of no one. We're basically technology janitors.

Says the guy who was upset someone wasn’t dedicated to the job as much as he was.


You’re correct. I don’t know anything about tech or IT or being a system admin. I do know enough about personalities to know you weren’t happy as soon as you had to put in more effort than you seemed necessary. ‘That’s someone else’s job. I pay for you to do this. I expect you…’ exactly what an administrator does. Administrate.


Support, trouble shoot, and make sure it fits the needs of the organization. When you start farming it out don’t expect your level of commitment. If you want it done to your level of expectation then magane it yourself.


Now you’re getting an idea why people call it in. It’s someone else’s job and they’re not meeting your expectations. Now realize this happens every three years because they’re looking for a different job to stay fresh, combined with the company/organization not investing into the company or solutions being offered, and you’ll have a small understanding why no one gives a fuck, and hasn’t since before Covid.
Show up.
Do work.
Go home.
Let someone else deal with the bullshit. Someone above low level pay grade. Let THEM tell me when I do and don’t do my job for this sweet government contract we got because it pays so well.

 

[YZRider]

GPa was a big timer back in the day. Had good equipment, good jobs, good pay, good benefits. If you didn't show up and perform, you were out, there'd be 50 more waiting to take your spot. Places like that are where "hard work" and "work ethic" came from. It wasn't difficult work, but it took experience, and you didn't make the same mistake twice. I grew up around people who made bitchin careers out of that business, and I also got to see the entire industry deteriorate over the years to where you cant fire a dunce because everyone gtfo.

Nobody wants to work, that's why you have to pay people to do it. Ethic can't exist without incentive.

 

[gladman]

It's funny that you're saying that to the guy who was willing to put in the extra hours while getting told by the private sector that they were off at 3.


I like the part where you think I'm management or that I'm somehow not also running projects with other companies anymore just because I work for the government. You might have an unrealistic view of how the whole process works that's skewing your opinions.

Here's mainly what I do: System administrator - Wikipedia

But we're also a small shop compared to many corporate sites, so I also get to wear the network admin, security admin, and a little bit of database admin hats.

remember: all threads and topics are an opportunity for people to post whatever real or perceived grievance they have. When they have clearly not read closely or misunderstood, it is fruitless to try to point that out. Bluto Blutarsky is on a roll.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

You’re correct. I don’t know anything about tech or IT or being a system admin. I do know enough about personalities to know you weren’t happy as soon as you had to put in more effort than you seemed necessary. ‘That’s someone else’s job. I pay for you to do this. I expect you…’ exactly what an administrator does. Administrate.


Support, trouble shoot, and make sure it fits the needs of the organization. When you start farming it out don’t expect your level of commitment. If you want it done to your level of expectation then magane it yourself.

So that armchair you're in... it must be pretty comfy huh? Maybe comfortable enough to nap through most of this thread until you found a coinvent spot to rant?

Tuesday we had some firewall hardware die. We have a support contract with a digital security firm that is supposed to manage our firewalls (it usually ends up me making all the changes and letting them know, but I actually prefer it that way). When the firewall went down, I had some things in place to fail us over to another connection, but they didn't' know that. They sent an email basically saying "your junk went down, is everything ok?". I told them no. At this point they're contractually obligated to get us back up asap. I went down and started troubleshooting for them, and sent them all the info I found. Radio silence. I find the dead piece of hardware, and take it out of the equation and get us back running. Radio silence.

 

[RunningProblem]

Sandy Johnson no it’s just a different chair than your in so I already know I’m not right. You were upset about the support you received, you weren’t ready to run the test the second they were, and when the replacement part came in your organization needed its own way to assign it before giving it to you. All while you talk about people calling it in and not putting in the effort.

Perhaps there could be a code/item number/ticket line/identifier for Warranty Replacement’ from now on in case this ever happens again. In case you ever need to warranty out a single piece of IT equipment and your organization needs to assign it somehow. I don’t know. Maybe that’s not how it’s done in IT land in California. I haven’t worked there. It just seems as though it’s more other people’s fault than a ‘stupid thing I see at work’ or ‘useless facts about your day’ type of situation.

I wasn’t here to rant but you go ahead and take it that way. Youre the one who asked about people calling it in, after reading the thread I offered a situation where the woman called it in, and you went defensive because obviously coming from me it’s one sided.


I’m happy your tech stuff was fixed, or is getting fixed. You never told us how that internal warranty replacement thing was entered into your office protocols whatever. You just ended it with you being told it needs a label/code/identifier of some sort.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Sandy Johnson no it’s just a different chair than your in so I already know I’m not right. You were upset about the support you received, you weren’t ready to run the test the second they were, and when the replacement part came in your organization needed its own way to assign it before giving it to you. All while you talk about people calling it in and not putting in the effort.

Perhaps there could be a code/item number/ticket line/identifier for Warranty Replacement’ from now on in case this ever happens again. In case you ever need to warranty out a single piece of IT equipment and your organization needs to assign it somehow. I don’t know. Maybe that’s not how it’s done in IT land in California. I haven’t worked there. It just seems as though it’s more other people’s fault than a ‘stupid thing I see at work’ or ‘useless facts about your day’ type of situation.

I wasn’t here to rant but you go ahead and take it that way. Youre the one who asked about people calling it in, after reading the thread I offered a situation where the woman called it in, and you went defensive because obviously coming from me it’s one sided.


I’m happy your tech stuff was fixed, or is getting fixed. You never told us how that internal warranty replacement thing was entered into your office protocols whatever. You just ended it with you being told it needs a label/code/identifier of some sort.

You're gonna need to step up your reading comprehension game if we're going to continue this discussion. There are too many things from my previous posts that went way over your head or you somehow got twisted into an alternate reality for me to even know where to begin.

I'll keep this as simple as possible:

We pay a major company an additional price of thousands of dollars per year per device as insurance should one of the units they manufacture fail. We pay them to replace it as soon as possible. When they actually had to cough up the support, they dropped the ball. This happened because their support engineer couldn't be bothered to provide support. There was literally nothing else I could do short of jumping on an airplane, flying to their manufacturing facility, and stealing replacement hardware myself.


You've concocted the rest in your head as some sort of management rant fantasy despite the fact that I manage nothing other than silicon and 1s and 0s.

 

[clodhopper]

So a national lab called and was having problems with a piece of equipment.
At this point, the equipment manufacture apparently had fired them as a customer and wouldn’t really service the account.

we spent some time supporting them over the phone, their in-house staff could not fix it. The equipment manufacturer was not supporting them, and they requested “sending out one of my technicians.

So to fly a tech out there, hotel, Perdiem, rental car,… All that shit… I quoted him 7500.
Not a total fuck you, but let’s just say it covered my cost.

Now they require it to be itemize. Fucked up not telling them no immediately. But I’m faced with having to back into a number.

I did have some fuck ups in this encounter, the first being… I stated in the original quote that “one hour of safety and orientation was included in any additional safety training would be billed at an hourly rate”. And that may have opened the door I should’ve left shut, but I have a feeling that door was open anyway.


So now I have the government telling me what they’ll pay for my per diem, what they’ll pay for my airfare, what they’ll pay for my hotel, in addition to the man our that is going to require just for the safety and orientation bullshit

I don’t care if you have the equipment fixed or not. $7500 doesn’t affect my companies profitability at all and nobody else will deal with them.

Maybe $7500 is a lot of money…. I don’t know… I’m out of touch, but you need me, you came to me, pay it or don’t, but don’t try to dictate how much I can quote.

This is a MINOR issue with government work, but it’s always something.

I am similar situations often.
Private clients... how much will it be to do X? This much, lump sum. Sounds good, pay now or later?
Govt Clients... Just need a number to provide X. This much, lump sum. Okay, well it will be unit rate. Fine, unit rate. Great. Oh, we will need to bid this, so submit that number and we will compare to some others. Huh? My number was a competitive price? Yep, here is the labor pricing you must conform to. Really? oh and for that price we need you to submit OHSA records for 10 years, pay and pricing for 10 years, a list of all subcontractors, full insurance documentation, and, and, and. Wait, none of that is included in price you asked for. Do you understand we are govt and everyone wants to work for us? This has to happen, sure wouldnt want to put you on the difficult client list. WHAAaa? Fk this. Find someone else to practice your forward momentum management skills on. Im out. It is so weird, we just cant seem to find good contractors. I bet. Must be tough.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

I am similar situations often.
Private clients... how much will it be to do X? This much, lump sum. Sounds good, pay now or later?
Govt Clients... Just need a number to provide X. This much, lump sum. Okay, well it will be unit rate. Fine, unit rate. Great. Oh, we will need to bid this, so submit that number and we will compare to some others. Huh? My number was a competitive price? Yep, here is the labor pricing you must conform to. Really? oh and for that price we need you to submit OHSA records for 10 years, pay and pricing for 10 years, a list of all subcontractors, full insurance documentation, and, and, and. Wait, none of that is included in price you asked for. Do you understand we are govt and everyone wants to work for us? This has to happen, sure wouldnt want to put you on the difficult client list. WHAAaa? Fk this. Find someone else to practice your forward momentum management skills on. Im out. It is so weird, we just cant seem to find good contractors. I bet. Must be tough.

That's crazy. For us, I just need to go out for RFPs from at least 3 competing vendors. Then I get to choose who I like the best of the bunch, and if whoever I choose is not the lowest bidder, I need to write up a justification for why I didn't choose the lowest bidder.

The end.

Oh, and if you're going to be working in our facilities without an escort, or working in sensitive areas even WITH an escort, you need to pass a background check.

 

[clodhopper]

We pay a major company an additional price of thousands of dollars per year per device as insurance should one of the units they manufacture fail. We pay them to replace it as soon as possible. When they actually had to cough up the support, they dropped the ball. This happened because their support engineer couldn't be bothered to provide support. There was literally nothing else I could do short of jumping on an airplane, flying to their manufacturing facility, and stealing replacement hardware myself.

Might this have been a bid contract and low bid mandatory selected?

I am not disputing your problem. It sucks being in that situation. But I am just pointing out that not all suppliers are equally responsive. Particularly those that swim in govt purchasing pools. Most of those are substandard low bidders. Again, I feels for ya having to pick the best of the worst and have them not come thru in a clutch moment.

I avoid gov work. I do some of it through clients to keep them supported. The added admin expectations are onerous. And those extra steps may not be applied by you and yours, but more often by the purchasing department that contracts for you. There is no linear work agreements when gov is the client.

 

[clodhopper]

Oh, and if you're going to be working in our facilities without an escort, or working in sensitive areas even WITH an escort, you need to pass a background check.

See? Oh, and one little thing more....

Look, I dont maintain a security clearance. If I have to get one to enter YOUR facility, because YOU require it, then YOU pay for it on top of my normal costs. That is not a little deal, even if you see it as so. There is no way I can maintain every clearance, certificate, whatever for every place I may need to enter. No way. Look, I am willing to come fix your problem, but if you have special entry expectations, I WILL NOT do that for free. It takes time for me and my staff. Your little problem is a blip in my income stream. Make it difficult to do the work you want done, or not be forthcoming with the requirements PRIOR to the work bid, then I will suddenly just be scheduled up and unavailable.

Got a standing contract for emergency work? So I need to pay periodic cost to maintain entry certifications/clearances, but you may never actually call for assistance and you only pay for hours onsite? That is a contract I wouldnt just walk away from.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Might this have been a bid contract and low bid mandatory selected?

I am not disputing your problem. It sucks being in that situation. But I am just pointing out that not all suppliers are equally responsive. Particularly those that swim in govt purchasing pools. Most of those are substandard low bidders. Again, I feels for ya having to pick the best of the worst and have them not come thru in a clutch moment.

Since it's been said in the thread, the hardware manufacturer we had trouble with was Fortinet. We talk to the same support people as the private sector. I got no excuse for them, and actually startling me to hear one of their support engineers give so little fucks... I guess that's what high availability is for though.

As for the other managed security servicers provider... I'm getting the impression they are smaller and promised too much for how large they're staffed.