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Modern professionalism and work ethic - Am I getting old or??

06h3 said:
I will give an example of modern-day professionalism and work ethic that is being developed due to the employer.

I am 31, so a millennial. I went to college and during the college years I worked near full time (on average 34-40 hours a week) while going to school full time and still maintaining my hobby of building, wrenching and wheeling. I was busy and thought I worked hard.

After college, I got a new job and worked my butt off. I was always on the road, won awards, got 2 promotions in 3 years, the company moved me a couple times and took care of all the expenses, etc. like they should in my opinion. We were considered a large company but a small fish in the big pond. We were small enough to feel like what you did mattered and they seemed to take care of their people.

Things are going well and then we get bought out by a much larger failing company. Horrible track record for performance. When we get bought out we were told we had to sign a noncompete. We were all given raises and we were told things are changing so I figured I will give it a shot. Dumb? probably....

So I sign it and continue on with hope that we were going to change the way things are done since they put higher ups from our company in big positions. Sure enough, they all leave within months. A few co workers get laid off, they find jobs elsewhere and are now getting non compete lawsuit threats in the mail after THEY LAID THEM OFF.

The culture is toxic. We shoot ourselves in the foot and then play the blame game internally. It's not great. So I start interviewing and get a couple offers in the current field I am in and once I tell them about the non compete they backed off and said the job is mine but I have to take the responsibility of any issues with this non compete so I talk to a lawyer and they basically I am SOL.

I look for some jobs out of the field and nothing has stuck. My job pays well enough, my give a fucks went from pretty high to near zero and I am trying to not let the laziness from my daily job spill into my personal life while I figure out what I am going to do long term.

So, in my case, I worry that working in this environment will create bad habits but until I find an out of the field job I am kinda in a prison. I do what is asked of me but I definitely do not do what I used to do.

Non competes are bullshit....
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Get a dead guys SSN and go by 05h2?:flipoff2:
Yes, non competes are BS.
 
I agree, from what I have been told it varies state by state. I spoke to 2 different lawyers and was told I am SOL. My non compete states it is based off of the law by where the employer located. I am not in that state as I am a remote employee.

CA will not put up with non competes. Ohio I hear is extremely hard on non competes which is where my non compete is based off of.
 
JD Mark said:
Non-competes are unenforceable, you need to find a better lawyer.
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More specifically they are only "legal" in MD and as of recently completely illegal in CA. A corporate work around is a well worded NDA (non disclosure agreement) which is legal protection for corporate trade secrets and confidential info...

The legal aspect from a FED perspective is they cant prevent someone from working in their career of choice, they can "if worded properly" keep someone from working for a direct competitor. Saying something like you can't work in your career field for 5 yrs or something like that doesn't fly with the labor review boards...saying you can't work for AMD as a CPU designer after quitting Intel in the same department could be real dicy/enforceable.
 
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FordFascist said:
Hustle culture is dead. I'm hoping that this carryover from Oliver Twist 40 hour work week dies with it. Most of the incentives from a previous age died long ago - stock options, bonuses, company cars, retirement, guaranteed employment, raucous Christmas parties, etc. It's not a wonder that when the employer's isn't loyal to you that you aren't loyal to them.
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We get everything but the company cars and retirement. If you are an FPGA verification engineer with experience in financial market protocols we're hiring. :flipoff2:

FordFascist said:
I've witnessed the change in tech though - no one answers their phones anymore. Email is about the same. The number of customers and vendors that blow off meeting is astounding. I remember when missing a meeting you organized was fire-able. Now its common. I have Microsoft and Cisco certified vendors who have no clue how to use the software/equipment they purportedly are certified to use. It's bizarre.
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My little niche is nowhere that bad. Maybe it's bleed over from old wall street culture. Maybe it's something else. But other than Indian QA teams needing to be told that they don't need to fill out schedule with meetings we don't really have any of that "fuck it" behavior.
 
I'll likely get flamed, but oh well.

I own/operate a small company. It's been around a year or two. So I know this is based on me and my philosophy and not huge companies. But some of it still applies.

It isn't always as simple as giving someone a raise or a bonus. There's a shit ton that goes into this. Employers are getting it from both directions...customer bitching about price increases, trying to stay current with inflation and from the employees wanting more money, trying to stay current with inflation, etc.

I don't live in huge, new house. My wife and I don't drive brand new vehicles all the time. She's driving a '16 Wrangler that was a year old when we bought it, that was the newest vehicle she ever had. I did buy a new RAM in December, my previous RAM was moved into the fleet, has 186,000 miles on it. I did get that one new back in '14 due to a vehicle fire in Las Vegas. Another story.

We don't overpay ourselves, trust me. My salary should be about $50k higher than what it is. I went 20 years without a raise.

We do this so we can pay more as well as put some of the profits back in the business.

We have some 1 year contracts, 3 and 5 year contracts. Fortunately, the one with the 5 year received enough Covid money we could institute a fuel and fertilizer surcharge when those went out of sight a few years back.

But, we are limited on how much we can raise prices mid season (growing or snow). Competition is stupid high so we are still limited on what we can charge and still have work for everyone.

I would love to give my decent employees higher raises. I'd love to replace the bottom ones with higher quality ones. I'd love it if they'd stop breaking anvils as well. One guy had 3 flat tires this past winter. I've never had 3 flat tires in an entire winter before. I try to supply them with the best equipment I can afford so they can be efficient. Then they sit on their phones half the day, stop at a gas station as soon as they leave the shop, take an hour lunch instead of a half hour, the list goes on. I'm already paying 50% more for entry level employees than I was 5 years ago. Anyone with some experience is 30-40% more. But their production has actually gone down. I had some accounts that took 50% longer to service last year. Same amount of grass, just took freaking forever.

So I have to pay for their inefficiencies. I have to pay for them breaking stuff regularly. I have to pay them for dicking the clock on their breaks unless I can catch them. But even then, not much I can do because I don't have anyone to replace them, but I have far more work than we can handle without them.

I know, big companies can be different, but not everything is as simple as it seems.

PS I started working for my dad in the business. Bottom of the totem pole and worked my way up. I've done every job in my business there is and still will if I have to. So I don't want to hear anyone state they are too good or have too much experience to do anything.
 
DVanVorous said:
More specifically they are only "legal" in MD and as of recently completely illegal in CA. But a corporate work around is a well worded NDA (non disclosure agreement) which is legal protection for corporate trade secrets and confidential info...
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Correct
06h3 said:
I agree, from what I have been told it varies state by state. I spoke to 2 different lawyers and was told I am SOL. My non compete states it is based off of the law by where the employer located. I am not in that state as I am a remote employee.

CA will not put up with non competes. Ohio I hear is extremely hard on non competes which is where my non compete is based off of.
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Is it reasonable?
 
06h3 said:
Non competes are bullshit....
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Being irrationally terrified of the court system is a side effect of hanging around with a bunch of boomers who run slapdash small businesses who look up to those who do.

Non-competes are mostly unenforceable especially for lower level employees. Tell them to get fucked. If by some miracle they do sue it'll cost you $1500 and three days of court (over six months) to have the court tell them to get fucked. This is assuming you are truly not competing with them other than simply working for the competition.
 
We had a non-solicitation "agreement" with a national service provider for an account we serviced for about 15 years prior. The actual property owner fired the NSP. The NSP had no other customers close to this account, and the restriction was 50 miles or something.

Customer contacted me for a quote, so I gave them one.

NSP sent me a form letter reminding me of the non-solicitation agreement. I ignored it because I didn't solicit the work.
 
I have a question for all of you defending being a shit employee (the actual premise of the OP, not the straw man you fucks keep building):
When should one give their all at work? What level of compensation is enough for you to do your job to the best of your ability?

I’ll wait over here while arse screeches boomer:flipoff2:
 
IowaOffRoad said:
I have a question for all of you defending being a shit employee (the actual premise of the OP, not the straw man you fucks keep building):
When should one give their all at work? What level of compensation is enough for you to do your job to the best of your ability?

I’ll wait over here while arse screeches boomer:flipoff2:
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Year 1.

Once burnout sets in, money won't fix it.
Especially if any form of resentment or feelings of being slighted is being experienced
 
06h3 said:
I agree, from what I have been told it varies state by state. I spoke to 2 different lawyers and was told I am SOL. My non compete states it is based off of the law by where the employer located. I am not in that state as I am a remote employee.

CA will not put up with non competes. Ohio I hear is extremely hard on non competes which is where my non compete is based off of.
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Guess what? The enforceable Labor laws that the non compete apply are the one s the employee resides in...talk to YOUR local labor office as the non compete for a remote employee has to be written for YOUR state, regardless of what your contract may say.
 
IowaOffRoad said:
I have a question for all of you defending being a shit employee (the actual premise of the OP, not the straw man you fucks keep building):
When should one give their all at work? What level of compensation is enough for you to do your job to the best of your ability?

I’ll wait over here while arse screeches boomer:flipoff2:
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Good question.
I think it's more linked to company culture than compensation.
 
JD Mark said:
I'll likely get flamed, but oh well.

I own/operate a small company. It's been around a year or two. So I know this is based on me and my philosophy and not huge companies. But some of it still applies.

It isn't always as simple as giving someone a raise or a bonus. There's a shit ton that goes into this. Employers are getting it from both directions...customer bitching about price increases, trying to stay current with inflation and from the employees wanting more money, trying to stay current with inflation, etc.
/snip/
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Yeah I definitely dont envy my bosses position, He is in a similar position as you I’m sure with it being a fairly small business. I just know that what he bills out for my labor is over 10x what I get paid. Obviously there are costs to employ someone and keep the company running, but I know damn well there’s enough waste going on by poor planning higher up that could be cut out to give all us production guys an extra $500-1k/month and still have some left over. Its just frustrating…

IowaOffRoad said:
I have a question for all of you defending being a shit employee (the actual premise of the OP, not the straw man you fucks keep building):
When should one give their all at work? What level of compensation is enough for you to do your job to the best of your ability?

I’ll wait over here while arse screeches boomer:flipoff2:
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Not defending being a shit employee at all, shit employees should be fired so their pay can be divided up between the rest of us :flipoff2:
 
DVanVorous said:
Guess what? The enforceable Labor laws that the non compete apply are the one s the employee resides in...talk to YOUR local labor office as the non compete for a remote employee has to be written for YOUR state, regardless of what your contract may say.
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I spoke to 1 lawyer in my state, they said we are a neutral state, we dont get involved in agreements you set with your employer, if they say its based on the law in their state. It is, talk to a lawyer in that state.

So I did, then I was told I was SOL. I will see what happens to the guy who just got a letter in the mail with threats.

I am not ready to potentially waste money on something I could lose on, especially if I am still employed. If I was let go, thats a different story.
 
JK13 said:
Yeah I definitely dont envy my bosses position, He is in a similar position as you I’m sure with it being a fairly small business. I just know that what he bills out for my labor is over 10x what I get paid. Obviously there are costs to employ someone and keep the company running, but I know damn well there’s enough waste going on by poor planning higher up that could be cut out to give all us production guys an extra $500-1k/month and still have some left over. Its just frustrating…
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Dang...some of my guys are getting 40-50% of what I charge in the summer. It's around 20% in the winter. But winter is a lot more equipment intensive.
 
IowaOffRoad said:
I have a question for all of you defending being a shit employee (the actual premise of the OP, not the straw man you fucks keep building):
When should one give their all at work? What level of compensation is enough for you to do your job to the best of your ability?

I’ll wait over here while arse screeches boomer:flipoff2:
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The entire time employed by said employer...assuming the pay is equitable for the task and the employee isn't being taken advantage of.

One place I worked where doing at least 10hrs/week OT was commonplace as a salaried employee but I drew the line at it being all the time. When I knew there was a reason like tight schedule Id work 12-15 hrs/day plus weekends to get the project finished on time and under budget. I was compensated for it via stock options, merit raises COL raises. This was from 1982 until 2001.

Moved to MT and had fun at a startup that the 2 partners were at each others throat all the time. My incentive for a big raise was getting 1 major contract in house and getting past phase 1 of the SBIR criteria which included building and working out bugs on a new design concept. I got 3 contracts instead and all thru phase 1...then the shit hit the fan. Partner in Missoula was ready to renege on the written agreement I had. Which eventually got sorted out but I was relegated to a peon position playing operator albeit well paid. Put up with that for a couple years in a "silent quit" mode until the company got sold. Saw the handwriting on the wall and retired immediately after the bonus checks came out along with having 5 weeks PTO they had to pay off.

Yakked with an ex coworker that's still there. I left at the right time cuz the non tech managerial types are running the show and averaging about 2-8 weeks of downtime sorting out how to fix simple problems with the equipment. They tried to find an ME with my type credentials (40 yrs in the field) but the wage level offered was $20/hr...no takers. I was making $70k...
 
Slander said:
This is the answer. Job security/stability, vision and general give a shit level of leaders for their workers out weighs compensation. Also the job has to be interesting and challenging
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I'd agree with all of this on its own, but what responsibility does the employee have to earn this? Especially the last bit, why shouldn't you start out on the boring and easy? Many people fuck up here. Do every job like it matters.

The other problem with the last bit is this: Many jobs have a bunch of non-challenging, boring stuff. If you don't get that stuff done, you never get to the part that is interesting and challenging.

We had a young-ish employee here a while back that wanted to do all the "fun" stuff but none of the "not-fun" stuff. Sorry, the job is a package deal. Also, if you don't do the "not-fun" stuff, you will be missing key information to do the "fun" stuff.

People I know think I have a dream job, which I do as far as I'm concerned. There's still 50-90% that sucks any given day as far as I'm concerned, but its worth it to do the 10-50% that is awesome.

A good analogy, and I think also explains much more about youth culture is this:
You can have the blowjob, but you need to sit through a dinner first and listen to the girl a bit.

All the incels won't take a fucking shower and learn how to talk to a girl, then bitch they can't get a blowie:flipoff2:
 
IowaOffRoad said:
I'd agree with all of this on its own, but what responsibility does the employee have to earn this? Especially the last bit, why shouldn't you start out on the boring and easy? Many people fuck up here. Do every job like it matters.

The other problem with the last bit is this: Many jobs have a bunch of non-challenging, boring stuff. If you don't get that stuff done, you never get to the part that is interesting and challenging.

We had a young-ish employee here a while back that wanted to do all the "fun" stuff but none of the "not-fun" stuff. Sorry, the job is a package deal. Also, if you don't do the "not-fun" stuff, you will be missing key information to do the "fun" stuff.

People I know think I have a dream job, which I do as far as I'm concerned. There's still 50-90% that sucks any given day as far as I'm concerned, but its worth it to do the 10-50% that is awesome.

A good analogy, and I think also explains much more about youth culture is this:
You can have the blowjob, but you need to sit through a dinner first and listen to the girl a bit.

All the incels won't take a fucking shower and learn how to talk to a girl, then bitch they can't get a blowie:flipoff2:
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Sounds like a poor leadership issue. If that is not working through to the employee, it's on the person who leads them, not all the employees fault.
 
grumpy356 said:
Even Elon Musk says meetings culture has evolved into a big joke, which is why so many people are skipping them.

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The correct protocol is to decline the meeting as an invitee. If you are the person who schedules the meeting it's on you to show up. You can do meetings from your phone - it's not hard. I've taken con-calls from a wakeboard boat and at KOH - it can be done.

If I had an employee who sent an invite to a sales prospect and then ghosted that prospect (wasted their time) that employee would be fired on the spot.

arse_sidewards said:
We get everything but the company cars and retirement. If you are an FPGA verification engineer with experience in financial market protocols we're hiring. :flipoff2:


My little niche is nowhere that bad. Maybe it's bleed over from old wall street culture. Maybe it's something else. But other than Indian QA teams needing to be told that they don't need to fill out schedule with meetings we don't really have any of that "fuck it" behavior.
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I work in IT security - not FPGA stuff. I worked for a data center company out here with good perks for a few years. The management was neurotic but they were in Vegas and I was senior enough and remote enough to not really cross paths. When Covid hit they got crazy about monitoring what you were doing at home and then started doing layoffs. That sucked. I did get to travel across the southwest though while working before the layoffs happened. All you need is a green screen with a picture of your home office set as your background and a VPN back to your house and no one is any the wiser.

I'm more annoyed because a buddy and I made a peripheral emulator a few years back that would type and enter commands via a keyboard and mouse to keep a DoD terminal active for a throughput test. We should have kept that fucker because I could have made millions selling it to people fucking off while simultaneously needing to appear busy at peak WFH during lockdowns.
 
Slander said:
Sounds like a poor leadership issue. If that is not working through to the employee, it's on the person who leads them, not all the employees fault.
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Does the employee have any agency in your way of thinking? I know, safety, so the question answers itself :flipoff2:
Seriously though, can you admit that some of these issues can be laid at the feet of the employee at all? I’ve seen employers spell out job details, expectations, and rewards ad nauseam but all employee hears is “reward “ then they bitch about not achieving it because of lack of fucks given regarding the first two
 
IowaOffRoad said:
Does the employee have any agency in your way of thinking? I know, safety, so the question answers itself :flipoff2:
Seriously though, can you admit that some of these issues can be laid at the feet of the employee at all? I’ve seen employers spell out job details, expectations, and rewards ad nauseam but all employee hears is “reward “ then they bitch about not achieving it because of lack of fucks given regarding the first two
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Thinking back to when we got out of school, we acted just like your scenario. We all thought we were smarter and better than we actually were and could run the place. The lucky few of us had leaders that managed those expectations. I know you are just aching to blame the youngins, while looking back with rose colored glasses on your own youth, but the reality is it's people slamming it in N at all levels and not doing their job cross generationally.

Also timely I just got out of a meeting where they were discussion turnover, and guess where the bleeding was going?
 
Slander said:
Thinking back to when we got out of school, we acted just like your scenario. We all thought we were smarter and better than we actually were and could run the place. The lucky few of us had leaders that managed those expectations. I know you are just aching to blame the youngins, while looking back with rose colored glasses on your own youth, but the reality is it's people slamming it in N at all levels and not doing their job cross generationally.
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I'm not "aching to blame the youngins" because I'm not a fucking idiot. This shit has gone on forever, it's just excused now, or even expected. How about everyone build a goddam company culture where it's not acceptable?

And you didn't answer my question:flipoff2:
 
IowaOffRoad said:
I'm not "aching to blame the youngins" because I'm not a fucking idiot. This shit has gone on forever, it's just excused now, or even expected. How about everyone build a goddam company culture where it's not acceptable?

And you didn't answer my question:flipoff2:
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If your leadership routines are centered around telling the person what to do via work instructions then focusing on rewards you are missing the boat.
 
Slander said:
If your leadership routines are centered around telling the person what to do via work instructions then focusing on rewards you are missing the boat.
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Clearly I'm simplifying as all y'all can't read. Of course there's more to it than that, but I can't wait for your next zoom meeting for you to read it:flipoff2:

ETA: oh, and you still haven't answered the question regarding agency:flipoff2:
 
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