Modern 4 cylinder 4wd powertrains

['84 Bronco II]

Also, for the guys saying small displacement 4 cylinders don't have enough low end grunt, here's Jesse Haines burning 42" stickies on concrete with a 1.4L Ecotec.

 

[FelixstoweF.2]

Also, for the guys saying small displacement 4 cylinders don't have enough low end grunt, here's Jesse Haines burning 42" stickies on concrete with a 1.4L Ecotec.

That's impressive...

 

['84 Bronco II]

Well yeah, but we're talking about using complex engines, I assumed that we could figure out the adaption of said engine too.

Certainly, which is why I would be interested in discussion involving what it takes to adapt some of these alternative small displacement engines since there are options that don't need any adapting for a longitudinal 4x4 drivetrain.

EDIT: I am still super intrigued by the idea of adapting a side-by-side engine like the 4 cyinder Pro R or a turbo engine that makes similar power to an automotive drivetrain for a cone dodger/trail buggy. You only need around 300 HP in a light weight rock car.

 

[YJ4Rox]

Read my first post in this thread

Thats 99% sure the direction I'm going to give a shot at for a modern 'light' powerful drivetrain when it's time to yank the tired 4.0 from my jeep.

That said looking into the future/longterm, I do believe the LTG ended production around 2020. So long term it may not be the choice for AP for a potential production type vehicle.

I little off topic but Any idea what is available for stand alone harnesses for the LHU?LTG or similar series ecotecs?

What trans are the Class 10 rigs running? I know the older ecotec spec class ran a TH400.


I put a LHU (13 buick) 2.0/turbo ecotec in a guys chassis for him. There are definitely some things i like about it better than my turbo LE5. With a CBM PS mount its much narrower than mine. The TB points down so plumbing an intercooler is a little cleaner, plus some other little things.

It took a little tweaking to get the trans adapted (904). The rear mounted oil cooler had to be ditched and a block off plate installed, then the adapter plate modified to fit the block off. The bell also needs modified to fit the nose of the starter. Billet Thermostat housing was required but thats fairly standard in a RWD set up. Looks like an access window will need to be added to the 904 to tighten converter bolts as well. I put a TH350 behind my ecotec and took less tweaking.

 

[bdkw1]

I little off topic but Any idea what is available for stand alone harnesses for the LHU?LTG or similar series ecotecs?

What trans are the Class 10 rigs running? I know the older ecotec spec class ran a TH400.


I put a LHU (13 buick) 2.0/turbo ecotec in a guys chassis for him. There are definitely some things i like about it better than my turbo LE5. With a CBM PS mount its much narrower than mine. The TB points down so plumbing an intercooler is a little cleaner, plus some other little things.

It took a little tweaking to get the trans adapted (904). The rear mounted oil cooler had to be ditched and a block off plate installed, then the adapter plate modified to fit the block off. The bell also needs modified to fit the nose of the starter. Billet Thermostat housing was required but thats fairly standard in a RWD set up. Looks like an access window will need to be added to the 904 to tighten converter bolts as well. I put a TH350 behind my ecotec and took less tweaking.

CL10 is Fortin, Albins or Weddle. All have bell housings to fit the motor.

Trophy lights used T350's, not T400's.

 

[Nvr-enough]

I little off topic but Any idea what is available for stand alone harnesses for the LHU?LTG or similar series ecotecs?

What trans are the Class 10 rigs running? I know the older ecotec spec class ran a TH400.


I put a LHU (13 buick) 2.0/turbo ecotec in a guys chassis for him. There are definitely some things i like about it better than my turbo LE5. With a CBM PS mount its much narrower than mine. The TB points down so plumbing an intercooler is a little cleaner, plus some other little things.

It took a little tweaking to get the trans adapted (904). The rear mounted oil cooler had to be ditched and a block off plate installed, then the adapter plate modified to fit the block off. The bell also needs modified to fit the nose of the starter. Billet Thermostat housing was required but thats fairly standard in a RWD set up. Looks like an access window will need to be added to the 904 to tighten converter bolts as well. I put a TH350 behind my ecotec and took less tweaking.

Looking around I saw swap specialties does a harness for the LTG. For my intended use (stock/maybe small tune?) I figure a stock type ECU will be totally fine. ~300 hp through an 8 speed is proper compared to a tired 190 hp through a non-lock up 4 speed auto. Lol

That said, I don't know much about them as a company. Any input anyone? I believe my buddy used them for a Gen 3 LS harness years back running a stock ECU.

The new 10 car I'm running has a Fortin 6 speed sequential transaxle. It's sweet but completely irrelevant to this thread.

 

[YJ4Rox]

i do know a couple of guys running swap specialties harness in ecotec rail buggies. Around here the go to for circle track and rails was RDMecotec but he went radio silent a couple of years ago due to illness and swap specialties was/is the "new" go to. From what they have told me its the swap harness is just as nice but fairly pricey, The 100% new RDM with a tuned ECU was about half the cost of Swap specialties.

 

[Ghetto Fab.]

I'd love to see an actual ecotec thread. Just saying its an ecotec motor is a bit misleading since there are so many variations of that motor through the years. Trying to figure out what is good and what is not on the different variations is a bit overwhelming on top of the fact that the info is hard to find.

However, I think thats a bit beyond what AgitatedPancake was intending with this thread.

Also, love to learn more about the different Ford motors, I4 and V6. In my mind they don't come up that often when I think about what to use in a build, but thats mostly because I have little experience with them or knowledge. I do know there is a stand alone controller now for the 6r80 trans which is interesting.

 

[YJ4Rox]

I'd love to see an actual ecotec thread. Just saying its an ecotec motor is a bit misleading since there are so many variations of that motor through the years. Trying to figure out what is good and what is not on the different variations is a bit overwhelming on top of the fact that the info is hard to find.

However, I think thats a bit beyond what AgitatedPancake was intending with this thread.

Also, love to learn more about the different Ford motors, I4 and V6. In my mind they don't come up that often when I think about what to use in a build, but thats mostly because I have little experience with them or knowledge. I do know there is a stand alone controller now for the 6r80 trans which is interesting.

there was sporadic info on the old board but it really died off before the direct injection era.
Id also love to learn more about the newer ford stuff.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Honestly, the swap harness info is definitely valuable and worth posting here for the stand along aspect of things. So that's cool info

I'd love to see an actual ecotec thread. Just saying its an ecotec motor is a bit misleading since there are so many variations of that motor through the years. Trying to figure out what is good and what is not on the different variations is a bit overwhelming on top of the fact that the info is hard to find.

However, I think thats a bit beyond what AgitatedPancake was intending with this thread.

Also, love to learn more about the different Ford motors, I4 and V6. In my mind they don't come up that often when I think about what to use in a build, but thats mostly because I have little experience with them or knowledge. I do know there is a stand alone controller now for the 6r80 trans which is interesting.

Man, I didn't understand it before but definitely grasp how different the various Ecotecs are now. While you could absolutely put up a thread on those differences, I definitely welcome the discussion here too as it may end up directly influencing my decision. Like I'm discovering the 2.5 LCV doesn't have a history of being boosted yet, but seems to have some diverse use offroad in NA form. I saw some conversation about the 2.4 LE5 having timing chain woes? Are those concerns valid, or overblown? Then the LTG 2.0 mentioned by you and Nvr seems awesome, comes boosted from the OEM and has impressive numbers out of the box.

A lot more to learn for sure, but all of the nuances of the different generations are definitely worth talking about.

Read my first post in this thread

Thats 99% sure the direction I'm going to give a shot at for a modern 'light' powerful drivetrain when it's time to yank the tired 4.0 from my jeep.

That said looking into the future/longterm, I do believe the LTG ended production around 2020. So long term it may not be the choice for AP for a potential production type vehicle.

I'll admit I probably shouldn't say future proof as I'm not too worried if they're no longer produced (as long as it was produced for a good amount of years so there's a good amount of them out there). I really just meant that in the context of being the right platform to "easily" add power to later with minimal hardware changes

 

[FelixstoweF.2]

That's fair, though on some of these newer option, valvetrain voodoo seems to make up for lower displacement but I don't know all the details of how any VVT/VVL compares between the two.



Crap. I thought I recalled a thread somewhere, but didn't see that one on my initial skim. Would have just bumped that one. Oops! I'll add it to the OP though because that's a good one.


IH, yeah this thread is about all the modern stuff, you're welcome to be stuck in your ways, but it just means what you like probably doesn't align with this thread

3rz is at least worth being on the radar I think, but probably on the lower end just due to age/performance.

Subi engines are interesting, but packaging flat 4s can be a PITA. In my particular application they won't fit, but I welcome the conversation

What about the Rotax 999T

That makes 240hp and its light weight. It's a small package I'm not sure what your transmission is or what your axles are-- but maybe the lightweight with high power to weight ratio will get you where you want to be.

Or you could go with the bigger 1630 that makes 300 hp

 

[YJ4Rox]

Honestly, the swap harness info is definitely valuable and worth posting here for the stand along aspect of things. So that's cool info




Man, I didn't understand it before but definitely grasp how different the various Ecotecs are now. While you could absolutely put up a thread on those differences, I definitely welcome the discussion here too as it may end up directly influencing my decision. Like I'm discovering the 2.5 LCV doesn't have a history of being boosted yet, but seems to have some diverse use offroad in NA form. I saw some conversation about the 2.4 LE5 having timing chain woes? Are those concerns valid, or overblown? Then the LTG 2.0 mentioned by you and Nvr seems awesome, comes boosted from the OEM and has impressive numbers out of the box.

A lot more to learn for sure, but all of the nuances of the different generations are definitely worth talking about.




I'll admit I probably shouldn't say future proof as I'm not too worried if they're no longer produced (as long as it was produced for a good amount of years so there's a good amount of them out there). I really just meant that in the context of being the right platform to "easily" add power to later with minimal hardware changes

The LE5 timing chain issues are sorted on later models and easy to prevent by swapping in the cloyes kit. It was really more to do with some of the stock sprockets being rubber centered but the replacement cloyes parts eliminates that and upgrades to hardened teeth as well. If you want to turn them over 7k they need valve springs.

I didn’t realize swap specialties offers DI harness and ECU options now, that is excellent info. They are essentially identical to my rdm harness. Same Eaton fuse box and everything. It’s no bs, hook up starter wire ign wire and fuel pump and it’s running.
Most use a LS style return fuel filter so the fuel system is stupid simple.

There are many many ecotec variations. Some NA models had forged internals some didn’t. The LNF is a super stout engine with all forged internals. With a few upgrades you can really put the boost to them.

ZZPerformance in Michigan supports most ecotec platforms and even offers remote tuning for oddball swaps like buggies.

Are they going to out perform a Kseries, not likely but Chevy parts are cheaper overall.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

What about the Rotax 999T

That makes 240hp and its light weight. It's a small package I'm not sure what your transmission is or what your axles are-- but maybe the lightweight with high power to weight ratio will get you where you want to be.

Or you could go with the bigger 1630 that makes 300 hp

Definitely super interesting for lightweight racecars, the power to weight ratio is undeniable. But I expect pairing it to an automotive transmission won't happen for a very long time (if ever). In the maverick the transmission has an integrated differential, so unless you can make use of that whole assembly, it's pretty hard to make useful

 

[AgitatedPancake]

The LE5 timing chain issues are sorted on later models and easy to prevent by swapping in the cloyes kit. It was really more to do with some of the stock sprockets being rubber centered but the replacement cloyes parts eliminates that and upgrades to hardened teeth as well. If you want to turn them over 7k they need valve springs.

I didn’t realize swap specialties offers DI harness and ECU options now, that is excellent info. They are essentially identical to my rdm harness. Same Eaton fuse box and everything. It’s no bs, hook up starter wire ign wire and fuel pump and it’s running.
Most use a LS style return fuel filter so the fuel system is stupid simple.

There are many many ecotec variations. Some NA models had forged internals some didn’t. The LNF is a super stout engine with all forged internals. With a few upgrades you can really put the boost to them.

ZZPerformance in Michigan supports most ecotec platforms and even offers remote tuning for oddball swaps like buggies.

Are they going to out perform a Kseries, not likely but Chevy parts are cheaper overall.

Excellent stuff. Here's a dumb question - do all of the Ecotecs share bellhousing/flywheel configurations so the transmissions are all interchangeable, or are there differences there as well depending on generation, or longitudinal vs transverse?

 

[YJ4Rox]

Excellent stuff. Here's a dumb question - do all of the Ecotecs share bellhousing/flywheel configurations so the transmissions are all interchangeable, or are there differences there as well depending on generation, or longitudinal vs transverse?

I’m not 100% certain on the latest versions but the bulk use the GM 60° pattern.

 

[Ghetto Fab.]

The LTGs motors use an odd pattern. I thought most of the ecotecs were an oddball pattern cause FWD?

 

[YJ4Rox]

The LTGs motors use an odd pattern. I thought most of the ecotecs were an oddball pattern cause FWD?

Some of them probably are. A lot you can almost bolt a th350 to minus like 2 bolts.

Here is a pic of Haines 904 adapter on the LHU

 

[YJ4Rox]

Lhu packaging isn’t bad in a small chassis. (Hulse 2 seat trail)

 

[YJ4Rox]

LE5 in my Hulse. Some ecotec were in RWD applications. LE5 and LNf were in solstice and redline. Pic is the solstice bell on my ax15 to show pattern. Also a video just because I like turbo noises. Please ignore the mud I didn’t get a chance to wash it after last weekend.

 

[Lee]

You're shorting yourself a cylinder.

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[AgitatedPancake]

Hmm, good pics. Based on some ebay listings, it looks like Ghetto is correct on the LTG being different.

Engine 2.0L VIN X 8th Digit Opt Ltg AWD Fits 13-15 ATS 7375434 | eBay

Then an LCV looks different yet again. The colorado looks similar with the starter high on the pass side.
Edit #2 - scratch that. The block casting looks different, but the hole locations look the same.

Engine 2.5L VIN A 8th Digit Opt Lcv California Emissions Fits 13 MALIBU 1800373 | eBay

Interesting note, the LTG and LCV both seem to have the same transmission offerings (the 6l and 8l), guess that means there were different bolt patterns for each? That's a bummer if so, for the sake of convenience. Not to mention both looking different than that LHU pic from Jesse, damn.

Edit - Quicktime bellhousing lists both the LTG and the LCV so I'm not confident yet

Quick Time RM-4020 QuickTime Bellhousing - Chevy LTG/LCV 2.0L Turbo

 

[FelixstoweF.2]

Definitely super interesting for lightweight racecars, the power to weight ratio is undeniable. But I expect pairing it to an automotive transmission won't happen for a very long time (if ever). In the maverick the transmission has an integrated differential, so unless you can make use of that whole assembly, it's pretty hard to make useful

Definitely super interesting for lightweight racecars, the power to weight ratio is undeniable. But I expect pairing it to an automotive transmission won't happen for a very long time (if ever). In the maverick the transmission has an integrated differential, so unless you can make use of that whole assembly, it's pretty hard to make useful

That is all true. It seems to me the Ford 2.0L is doing basically what those Rotax's are doing without the issues of the compatibility of the engine to a transmission. I think you have your answer in that Ford engine its got the best performance. The question is now transmission CVT, Dual Clutch, Automatic or Manual? And probably a CVT will give you the ability to operate that engine at its most efficient level at all conditions.

By the way what is the overall project vehicle goals? I was thinking ultra-fast light weight rock-crawler but I reread your post and now I'm not sure.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

That is all true. It seems to me the Ford 2.0L is doing basically what those Rotax's are doing without the issues of the compatibility of the engine to a transmission. I think you have your answer in that Ford engine its got the best performance. The question is now transmission CVT, Dual Clutch, Automatic or Manual? And probably a CVT will give you the ability to operate that engine at its most efficient level at all conditions.

By the way what is the overall project vehicle goals? I was thinking ultra-fast light weight rock-crawler but I reread your post and now I'm not sure.

Just a casual compact swiss army knife vehicle. Not a racecar, or moon buggy or anything exotic like that. I don't need crazy horsepower, but figure it would be wise to choose a platform more capable than my current intentions. all the 6-8-10 speed transmissions that have been noted would handle the job very well, and have incredible gear ratio spreads that make them more useful than ever.

 

[FelixstoweF.2]

Just a casual compact swiss army knife vehicle. Not a racecar, or moon buggy or anything exotic like that. I don't need crazy horsepower, but figure it would be wise to choose a platform more capable than my current intentions. all the 6-8-10 speed transmissions that have been noted would handle the job very well, and have incredible gear ratio spreads that make them more useful than ever.

With 250hp and a lightweight chassis this thing should go fast and if you put a doubler on T-Case and 10speed gearbox you should have enough gears to crawl up anything I would think.

I'm still a manual gearbox guy myself. But, I want to see the build pictures. This sounds like a fun little toy.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

With 250hp and a lightweight chassis this thing should go fast and if you put a doubler on T-Case and 10speed gearbox you should have enough gears to crawl up anything I would think.

I'm still a manual gearbox guy myself. But, I want to see the build pictures. This sounds like a fun little toy.

Honestly with a 4:1 or 4.6:1 first gear, a doubler would hardly even end up being necessary. Just a good ole standard ratio low range should be plenty. Granted, automatics help make that more comfortable. I do enjoy manuals and stuffed one into my grand cherokee (with a doubler). But it definitely wants more ratio so you don't have to work the clutch, where the torque converter does all the work for ya in an auto hah.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

OK so as of now on the GM side, the 2.0 LTG paired with its factory 6l45 or 8l45 are my favorites for the minimum custom KISS objective I'm going for

And on the ford side, I'm taking another good look at the 2.3 ecoboost that's been available in the 2019+ rangers. That newness made me a little hesitant, but my friend just reminded me that the Mustang has been getting those engines since 2015, and explorers are getting them too. That's nearing a 10 year run on the engine platform across various models, and they seem to have a pretty good reputation. So while the ideal 4wd transmission and matching tcase may have only become available in 2019 and newer, the engine seems plentiful

19 - 22 FORD RANGER 2.3L ECOBOOST I4 ENGINE MOTOR 4X4 (VIN H (8TH DIGIT)) 71K | eBay

Even a 310HP crate motor is only $5,500

2.3L 310HP MUSTANG ECOBOOST ENGINE KIT

 

[Sean]

OK so as of now on the GM side, the 2.0 LTG paired with its factory 6l45 or 8l45 are my favorites for the minimum custom KISS objective I'm going for

And on the ford side, I'm taking another good look at the 2.3 ecoboost that's been available in the 2019+ rangers. That newness made me a little hesitant, but my friend just reminded me that the Mustang has been getting those engines since 2015, and explorers are getting them too. That's nearing a 10 year run on the engine platform across various models, and they seem to have a pretty good reputation. So while the ideal 4wd transmission and matching tcase may have only become available in 2019 and newer, the engine seems plentiful

19 - 22 FORD RANGER 2.3L ECOBOOST I4 ENGINE MOTOR 4X4 (VIN H (8TH DIGIT)) 71K | eBay

Even a 310HP crate motor is only $5,500

2.3L 310HP MUSTANG ECOBOOST ENGINE KIT

Any dimensions on these engines you're looking at and how much importance is overall size to what you're planning? Obviously, we'd all like a ton of power with minimal weight/size....just wondering if there's a LxWxH restriction to the chassis you may have planned.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Any dimensions on these engines you're looking at and how much importance is overall size to what you're planning? Obviously, we'd all like a ton of power with minimal weight/size....just wondering if there's a LxWxH restriction to the chassis you may have planned.

No hard limits designed in at the moment that stop me from making most I4 platforms work, but deliberately tight enough that I6, V6, and V8 won't fit.

 

[DMG]

Certainly, which is why I would be interested in discussion involving what it takes to adapt some of these alternative small displacement engines since there are options that don't need any adapting for a longitudinal 4x4 drivetrain.

EDIT: I am still super intrigued by the idea of adapting a side-by-side engine like the 4 cyinder Pro R or a turbo engine that makes similar power to an automotive drivetrain for a cone dodger/trail buggy. You only need around 300 HP in a light weight rock car.

I am thinking the opposite. A 300+ hp turbo ecotec would make my KRX a lot more fun.

 

[FelixstoweF.2]

Honestly with a 4:1 or 4.6:1 first gear, a doubler would hardly even end up being necessary. Just a good ole standard ratio low range should be plenty. Granted, automatics help make that more comfortable. I do enjoy manuals and stuffed one into my grand cherokee (with a doubler). But it definitely wants more ratio so you don't have to work the clutch, where the torque converter does all the work for ya in an auto hah.

I'm just the kinda guy that likes deep reduction. Yes, the torque converter does a great job of increasing torque. Are you going to go with a high-rise torque converter in this setup to keep it from stalling out under tough conditions?