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MCI 102-C3 coach to RV - General/Floorplan

SkZuk said,
JNHEscher said:
I've worked with a lot of fiberglass over the years. . . . . it's no exaggeration during the winter season where we drop as low as 15% humidity.​

Do you need to gut it to the bare roof skin? You'll want it insulated anyway.
 
SkZuk said:
Do you need to gut it to the bare roof skin? You'll want it insulated anyway.​
Some do, some don't. You can stick with the batting and aluminum sheet. Myself and those of us working on this project don't care for fiberglass insulation for a few reasons. I'm taking it out so that I can coat the inside of the roof skin with undercoating and use spray-in foam insulation.
 
I'll try to explain the floor as well as I can. Because the design is still rather conceptual, I have a couple theories to debate.

Beginning with a few pictures to convey the idea. The measurements are subject to change. Particularly because I drew this at a 40 foot length, not knowing the actual measurements prior to purchasing a bus. It's shown shortened to 37 feet. It'll end up somewhere around 35 feet.

The red and blue arrows correspond with hot and cold water flow. The white stripes on the gray floor you see are 2'x0.125" steel strap/bar. Those are used to create the flow channels. The discs are 2"x0.5", extra thick (0.125") fender washers. The washers add support, a little turbulence to stir up fluid flow and distribute heat, and because of how I plan to construct this, the washer centers will provide mounting holes for interior structures.

As I've thought this through, I've tallied up ball park cost, weight, and labor. I ended up with 11 gauge sheet for the bottom and 18 gauge for the top, rather than two equal, 16 gauge layers I originally thought would be best. Moving some of the thickness to the bottom will hopefully ensure that the bottom won't give in to flex and eventually crack. The 18 gauge top should be sufficient for support and offer easier weld penetration. I have the top sheet shown as translucent so the innards are easy to view.

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Building this:

The 11 gauge sheets will lay on the steel hat channels and cold air return channels that the plywood floor currently resides on. I'll weld the sheets to the channels and butt weld each sheet together. The weld gap for 11 gauge should make for a nice, thick bead that won't crack under stress.

Each strap and the OD of each washer will be completely welding to the bottom sheet, closing up all pathways for fluid to bleed past them. I'll be pulse TIGing it all. Spacing between straps and washers will likely change. I have to remove all of the factory flooring and draw out distances between all the floor support channels.

Once the strap and washers are welded down, I'll drill in the center of every washer, through the 11 gauge sheet so that the exact location of every hole can seen from underneath the floor. I'll drill 1/2" holes in the strap as well, spacing the equally with the washer center holes.

When placing the top, 18 gauge sheets on, I'll need to mark and draw out the location of the straps and washers onto the sheets so that I can fuse weld the sheets to the straps and washers. I'm not sure of any easier way to locate where I need to weld from above. I'll keep an eye on the heat effect zone propagation while welding to judge weld penetration. The floor will also be leak tested before putting it to use.

I have an Eastwood pneumatic flanger that will easily flange and hole punch the 18 gauge to make lap and plug welds. I want more than just butt welds between 18 gauge. Welding this assembly to the factory floor support channels should stiffen up the bus a reasonable amount. I think the increase in overall rigidity more or less mitigates to weight of the metal addition. We've already dropped 862 pounds just in the aluminum we removed the other day. Lots of steel and copper to come out, yet.

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The idea of this steel, hydronic stems from passive solar studies. To use the sun's heat wisely, you need a mass within your home. Like stone. Steel is an excellent mass. Stone isn't a very conducive flooring structure material in a bus for obvious reasons. I have an infrared heater in my garage. In the open, it does alright. Underneath my 1/2" thick, steel fabrication table, it does awesome. The steel heats up and radiates the heat for hours, even after the heater is shut off. I'm able to run the heater on a lower setting and the garage is quite comfortable while the outside air is in the single digits.

I can't bash the typical PEX system used in hydronic, radiant floor heat. It works and people everywhere are satisfied with it. PEX has been used in a few bus builds and does the job.

To make a greater comparison between PEX and the steel floor, I gotta point out my reasons. PEX is a plastic. Cross-linked polyethylene, to be exact. Plastic is an awesome thermal insulator. It doesn't, however, transfer heat as well as a material such a steel. Upon reading many articles covering industrial radiant heat floor employing PEX, you'll find the one of the materials used to insulate the PEX tubing is more polyethylene. Its flexural stability makes it incredibly versatile for convenient routing. There inlies the trade-off in labor. You fabricators are reading this and wondering what I'm smoking to go forth and weld all the strap and washers, right?

I did a lot of pricing and came to the conclusion that my steel floor versus a PEX floor in a bus ends up costing nearly the same, give or take a Benjamin or two. Once you purchase your plywood, foam board, fasteners, adhesive, tubing, fittings, manifolds, valves, heat source, solenoids or whatever you decide to use in addition to other nickel and dime pieces, you're into it deeper than a spacer, for sure. I got the steel for my floor down to around $1,500 for the 40 foot length. I haven't recalculated to cost for the shorter floor. The weight is right around a ton for 40 feet.

With what materials I have in mind for the steel floor, the total floor thickness is about 0.292". What I found in the PEX bus floor builds was they were loosing around 3-3.5" of headroom, once all said and done. 3/4" plywood, then polystyrene foam board and a top layer of 3/4" plywood, plywood with the channels cut for laying the PEX into, then one last layer of playwood takes up some space. The foam board is necessary to keep the heat migrating upwards, otherwise you loose some heat that radiates into the underbelly storage bays. Same reason why you put foam board or fiberglass batting between floor joists in you radiant heat home when the floor is over a crawlspace. Floor covering thickness for both style floors varies a bit, but they'll otherwise be about the same.
 
DE Jeeper said,

Hey im all for reinventing the wheel but u can just tie down some pex tubing on an 8" spacing. Put foil backed ridgid insulation on the bottom and half inch ply with some ferring strips between the tubes for mounting.

I really think u will blead off too much heat and it will be very uneven with all that thermal mass. Also how r u going to pump the fluid through those channels?

With the water flowing the tubes it would be much more even and easier to maintain temps. In my 15x30 garage i have 2 loops in the concrete floor and it works great. Maybe im missing something here but it looks like a lot of time and money into something that already exists as an easier to assemble, less complicated, lighter weight and less prone to failure product.

U must have typing at the same time, u r still gonna need the insulation under the steel. I bet the height overal would only be an inch higher. I think u r still going to need a pump and some kind of manifold. Also having the experience of removing a very stiff rv box ftom a hdt frame and converting to an extended air ride sleeper, i can tell u that the truck frame always wins. I know a bus is different but its going to need to flex unless its fully isolated from the chassis.
 
Ya, my ideas do go a little overboard. A little beyond "thinking outside the box. There just is no box lol.

Keeping the heat even is a concern. The channels made by the strapping are meant to flow the hot fluid along the outside wall first, much like putting baseboard heaters under windows to combat the greatest threat of cold air. I've been wondering if I should omit the two inner channels and just go with the two outside channels and washer throughout the rest. Much like my table, I would think the steel would take a couple hours to be brought to temp, and then radiate it pretty evenly thereafter.

Pumping. I have a small pump that I can install in line just before the cool inlet on the heater. At first, myself and a couple other people thought that I might be able to try out getting fluid to flow on its own. Stratospheric effect, I think it is. Or like the "stack" effect. The heated water becomes less dense and wants to rise, pushing it's way into the floor and making the coolant cycle. Given that this system is mostly horizontal, I don't think the flow will be anywhere near adequate. Most likely boil the coolant just ahead of the heater and make one area at the back of the floor hot and leave the rest cold. Even worse, I discovered the floors are slanted slightly downward towards the front of the bus. About 3" difference from back to front. So it'll need a pump.

Another interest in the heavy duty floor is being able to bolt stuff down. With the holes already drilled in the bottom sheet, I can just drill upward through the top sheet and floor covering to find my locations. The holes would be numbered and lettered like a Battleship board. I don't want to frame the inside in with 2x4's. Got a thing for metal. Steel would be stronger, smaller in girth and hollow. Doubt I'd really attempt to stow anything inside tubes, but ya never know. Being able to tie steel tube framing together and bolt it to the floor would make for a badass roll cage. Dunno. It is overdoing it, to an extent, but I like the idea of the added safety that I realized as a benefit to the floor design.
 
DE Jeeper said:
U must have typing at the same time, u r still gonna need the insulation under the steel. I bet the height overal would only be an inch higher. I think u r still going to need a pump and some kind of manifold. Also having the experience of removing a very stiff rv box ftom a hdt frame and converting to an extended air ride sleeper, i can tell u that the truck frame always wins. I know a bus is different but its going to need to flex unless its fully isolated from the chassis.
I was expecting somebody to chime in while I was in the middle of typing away.

Yep, these buses are essentially unibody. I think the floor being a sheet sandwich would have some give to it. Though maybe not enough. I've only ever ridden in school buses and driving this coach home was my first time in a unibody bus. Didn't feel like it rode much different. I know well that everything shifts as is bounces down the road, though.

I'm unsure, but suppose the bottom sheet being 11 gauge would be harder for heat to penetrate, thus forcing most of the heat through the thinner top sheet? I'd like some heat in the bays underneath. We'll have water tanks and such down there. A lot of people have to add a heating pad or some source of hot water flow to keep their tanks from turning into ice blocks. I'll be insulating the bay doors and floor, too.
 
GLTHFJ60 said,

You're going to need a lot of flow to support those cold channels and keep heat distribution even I'd imagine. Very ambitious project.
 
Grendel said,

Yep, I'd just do pex with a wood floor over the top of it.

That's a lot of welding and a lot of cold material.

We did huck bolted aluminum, going pex over the top of it, then a wood floor.
 
Java said,

That is going to take a shit ton and a half of heat to even get to temp. I understand what your saying about radiating for a long time once warm but damn. I don't think a small pump is going to do it either, with that large of a channel your trying to move a lot of water unlike a pex system that is moving a small volume though a small tube.

I have done a lot of radiant systems, just do pex. It wont leak, it's easy, its cheap (i dont know where you got your pex pricing but seriously its a couple hundred bucks). Ply underlayment, staple the tubing in place, infill the gaps with more ply, sheet. Really simple. Insulation under it would help.
 
Sounds like flow will be my biggest problem to contend with? Once the steel got up to temp, would you guys agree that it would hold a steady warmth with the heater and pump cycling about as much as any other heating system?

Another that popped in my head was that the steel would indeed be cold in the summer if it were kept shaded. Summer heat emanates from the rooftop down, so I don't see the cold floor really being of much help. I may be able to take advantage of it to assist in keeping the cabin temp down, though. We'll be going rooftop AC unit for the bulk of the cooling.

Rather than the hot fluid pushing through the outside channels all the way to the front before it disperses through the rest of the floor, I could make small gaps along the outside channels and one center channel with the same gaps so that hot fluid still heats the outside edge, but is drawn from the full length of the outside channels and across to the center in a fairly even flow. I guess if this system doesn't work as well as I hope, I could always lay PEX on top of it. I'm still after the ability to bolt interior structures to a sturdy floor. I could do that on a PEX floor. Just have to have my tube layout marked well.
 
That is going to take a shit ton and a half of heat to even get to temp. I understand what your saying about radiating for a long time once warm but damn. I don't think a small pump is going to do it either, with that large of a channel your trying to move a lot of water unlike a pex system that is moving a small volume though a small tube.

I have done a lot of radiant systems, just do pex. It wont leak, it's easy, its cheap (i dont know where you got your pex pricing but seriously its a couple hundred bucks). Ply underlayment, staple the tubing in place, infill the gaps with more ply, sheet. Really simple. Insulation under it would help.​
Got the full system pricing estimate from the other bus builds that used it. The manifold boards look crazy. I don't see any reason to put a bunch of valves in to isolate zones in a bus. There's less than 300 square feet to heat.

Leaks have been my worry. Seems inevitable, at some point. x10 that the PEX would be less of a worry.
 
aczlan said,
JNHEscher said:
Got the full system pricing estimate from the other bus builds that used it. The manifold boards look crazy. I don't see any reason to put a bunch of valves in to isolate zones in a bus. There's less than 300 square feet to heat.
Leaks have been my worry. Seems inevitable, at some point. x10 that the PEX would be less of a worry.​
A pair of manifolds with 8 1/2" lines coming off of a 3/4" feed can be had for $45ish shipped: https://www.ebay.com/itm/222767012440
If you need to reduce some of the runs down the road to balance them, you could add those valves later.
A pair of 6 branch stainless manifolds with flowmeters and valves is $200ish.

If you want to be able to mount things later, you could pre-cut your spacer blocks and set them in place on top of the floor, then spray paint the spaces between (so you have marked where the lines are).

Aaron Z
 
GLTHFJ60 said,
JNHEscher said:
Sounds like flow will be my biggest problem to contend with? Once the steel got up to temp, would you guys agree that it would hold a steady warmth with the heater and pump cycling about as much as any other heating system?

Another that popped in my head was that the steel would indeed be cold in the summer if it were kept shaded. Summer heat emanates from the rooftop down, so I don't see the cold floor really being of much help. I may be able to take advantage of it to assist in keeping the cabin temp down, though. We'll be going rooftop AC unit for the bulk of the cooling.

Rather than the hot fluid pushing through the outside channels all the way to the front before it disperses through the rest of the floor, I could make small gaps along the outside channels and one center channel with the same gaps so that hot fluid still heats the outside edge, but is drawn from the full length of the outside channels and across to the center in a fairly even flow. I guess if this system doesn't work as well as I hope, I could always lay PEX on top of it. I'm still after the ability to bolt interior structures to a sturdy floor. I could do that on a PEX floor. Just have to have my tube layout marked well.
Click to expand...​
If allow the hot fluid to enter the cold channel anywhere but the end, you'll get little to no flow to the far end of the heat exchanger.

You'll be losing heat through the bottom and top pretty evenly I'd imagine (despite the difference in thickness) so I don't see you maintaining temp for very long after flow stops. There's a lot of steel there in total, but it's thin and not well insulated from the bottom.
 
Java said,
JNHEscher said:
Got the full system pricing estimate from the other bus builds that used it. The manifold boards look crazy. I don't see any reason to put a bunch of valves in to isolate zones in a bus. There's less than 300 square feet to heat.

Leaks have been my worry. Seems inevitable, at some point. x10 that the PEX would be less of a worry.​
You can do 300sq ft in a single zone, will work fine. Use 5/8" tubeing, at 8" OC your looking at 450LF. Close to max for that tube.

I figure your probably going to need 50-75 btu's ish a sq ft. Maybe a bit more. (depending on insulation plans, but there are a lot of single? pane windows there....)

One pump (use isolation valves so you can swap it when it dies!), a valve of some sort to regulate flow from-to the engine, (the webasto/espar unit mentioned sounds good) a Tstat, a relay of some sort to control the pump and your done.

As to pex and leaks, its pretty damn bullet proof. I like the Wirsbo expansion system personally, as long as the pipe is on the stops on the fitting it doesn't leak, period. Pex is pretty forgiving for installer, its easy to use if you UNCOIL it correctly, it gets knotted quick if not. Dont leave kinks in the pipe! (Some wirsbo can be heated to remove them, but IMO cut it out and add a coupler). MAke sure you get Heat pex for the radiant, it has a oxygen barrier in it so it wont rust out heat exchangers/pumps etc.

What BTU output is the ecotemp rated at?
 
Java said:
You can do 300sq ft in a single zone, will work fine. Use 5/8" tubeing, at 8" OC your looking at 450LF. Close to max for that tube.

I figure your probably going to need 50-75 btu's ish a sq ft. Maybe a bit more. (depending on insulation plans, but there are a lot of single? pane windows there....)

One pump (use isolation valves so you can swap it when it dies!), a valve of some sort to regulate flow from-to the engine, (the webasto/espar unit mentioned sounds good) a Tstat, a relay of some sort to control the pump and your done.

As to pex and leaks, its pretty damn bullet proof. I like the Wirsbo expansion system personally, as long as the pipe is on the stops on the fitting it doesn't leak, period. Pex is pretty forgiving for installer, its easy to use if you UNCOIL it correctly, it gets knotted quick if not. Dont leave kinks in the pipe! (Some wirsbo can be heated to remove them, but IMO cut it out and add a coupler). MAke sure you get Heat pex for the radiant, it has a oxygen barrier in it so it wont rust out heat exchangers/pumps etc.

What BTU output is the ecotemp rated at?
Click to expand...​
Specs from Eccotemp
Battery powered ignition
•Manual water temperature controls
•30 to 35 degree rise at 1.5 GPM
•37,500 BTU
•Gas Type: Liquid Propane
•Rated voltage: 3V (D Cell Batteries)
•Rated gas pressure: 11" of water column
•Rated heat input: 11kw

The L5 has the capability of 134BTU/sq.ft. in this size of a rig (280 square feet is almost approximate). I have a Honeywell snap switch thermostat that I wired to the L5 in place of the water valve switch that is working swell. I'll have to get a larger pump than what I just purchased. If I get a heater core from an MK3 Toyota Supra, it'll have a 3/4" inlet and outlet. Plenty of flow for this, I think. The L5 exchanger uses one layer of pretty small copper tubing.

I didn't want to delve into the insulation just yet because the floor is a handful of debate already. The windows are thick single-pane glass. I'm wanting to make dual-pane Lexan windows that hold a vacuum. The batting is getting replace with undercoating and spray-in foam. I've been getting suggestions for luan to cover the ceiling with and it supposedly has some insulative properties.
 
Java said,

What are you using the heater core for?

The luan will give you r-nearly nothing.... It's r1 per inch of wood. Luan is about 1/8".

Spray foam is good, I used it on my build as well.
 
Heater core would be used in place of the exchanger that the L5 comes from the factory with. A few pics of the L5 innards, here. The pump I have matches the flow of the factory exchanger. I was looking for something with 3/4" inlet and outlet to flow more and match what the floor can flow. The Supra heater core is copper. Seems like a viable replacement.

I asked what people were using for ceiling covering and most said luan and that it works well with insulation. I'd say anything will work well over spray-in foam.

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Java said,

Ah sorry I misunderstood, yes luan is great, I thought you were saying it would Insulate. Over spray foam it's great, I used 1/4 t&g cedar for my ceiling.

I see so the ecotemp heat exchanger sucks? God man, just gey the espar
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
I'm totally for diy projects, but that seems silly.
 
Java said:
Ah sorry I misunderstood, yes luan is great, I thought you were saying it would Insulate. Over spray foam it's great, I used 1/4 t&g cedar for my ceiling.

I see so the ecotemp heat exchanger sucks? God man, just gey the espar
yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7
I'm totally for diy projects, but that seems silly.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk​
Eccotemp heater is awesome, really. Mad awesome for a shower. Lacking a bit in gpm for a heated floor, but that I can remedy. Most of the complaints for them sound like they're coming from folks that just want stuff to work and aren't interested in fixing anything themselves. Most of the parts inside of it can be found individually or inside of an item that I can find at Ace Hardware for cheap. I find that attractive lol.

My goal for this build is to make each system that requires energy to use it as efficiently as possible. LP doesn't match the BTU of diesel, though it should work alright. Especially if I'm able to use the exhaust heat to keep the block warm. If I'm not mistaken, the Webasto and Espar heaters require a few amps to pump and preheat the fuel. At least that's what I understood in some videos a while back. The coolant pump requires power, too. Of course, so will mine since the "stack" effect ain't gonna work out on this. I may try it anyway, just to see what happens.
 
DT75FLH said,

From my FF engineer days....the washers creating ripples or turbulence is going to require a larger Pump than you might think... as when the flow is interrupted it requires higher volume to overcome that resistance ...when the pex system is used the pipe is all the same diameter with very few obstructions.....I'd just do the pex...as your going to do a ton of work.


Or build a very small scale one to see how it's going to pan out...like a 4x4 one first so your not to heavily invested in the plan if the volume is not there...

Either way nice start..and I'm subscribed :grinpimp:
 
DT75FLH said:
From my FF engineer days....the washers creating ripples or turbulence is going to require a larger Pump than you might think... as when the flow is interrupted it requires higher volume to overcome that resistance ...when the pex system is used the pipe is all the same diameter with very few obstructions.....I'd just do the pex...as your going to do a ton of work.


Or build a very small scale one to see how it's going to pan out...like a 4x4 one first so your not to heavily invested in the plan if the volume is not there...

Either way nice start..and I'm subscribed :grinpimp:
Click to expand...​
Good to know. The interruptions hadn't come to mind. I've been wanting to do a scale version to try out. Being a stay-at-home dad with no ride or income and a wife that works 12-hour days, I have a hell of a time getting to any store and being able to afford stuff myself then trying to build it in the house while my two boys are climbing all over me every chance they get. Anyway, that's why I brought it up here. All the input is appreciated. I have to run stuff across to other adults. Discussing this with a three-year-old only goes so far.
 
DE Jeeper said,

I see the dc power requirement as a nonissue. We run 3 regular agm bats not even 6v golf cart bats and i have gone 2 days running the espar and the heater blower and controls without having to fire up the genny. If u r gonna boondock u will need a genny and having a ton more room u could put more bats and solar on top. This would easily take care of the load without a genny.

Still not trying to shit on your parade just sharing my experience.
 
DE Jeeper said:
I see the dc power requirement as a nonissue. We run 3 regular agm bats not even 6v golf cart bats and i have gone 2 days running the espar and the heater blower and controls without having to fire up the genny. If u r gonna boondock u will need a genny and having a ton more room u could put more bats and solar on top. This would easily take care of the load without a genny.

Still not trying to shit on your parade just sharing my experience.​
Ah. Real numbers. What kind of rig are you heating? Noise level of your heater? I'm checking out the hydronic S3. Stuff is pricey, so justifying such a purchase will take some work.
 
SkZuk said,

I'm very interested in this thread and also don't want to shit on you for thinking outside the box but you have a lot of considerations to make before charging ahead with your design. I think you know that. It seems like you have a fair bit of pride tried up on your brain child and want to see it succeed which is understandable but you're making all your critical thoughts from a biased perspective. One example: you say some heat Loss to the under bay is a positive aspect of your steel floor but you would need to insulate under the pex floor to stop heat Loss. Both should probably have insulation. This steel floor could work but it's going to be oodles of work and an absolute nightmare if it ever cracks or leaks. What if the 18ga warps where you welded circles in the middle of it and it pops up and down when you walk on it? What CAD program are you using? Provably couldn't run some simulations for heat transfer across that floor? Do you know someone who could do that on their lunch break at work?

I don't think going to thicker plate under your floor will reflect the heat upwards. The conductivity will be the same, just a greater thermal mass on the bottom of the floor versus the top which won't help you.
 
SkZuk said:
I'm very interested in this thread and also don't want to shit on you for thinking outside the box but you have a lot of considerations to make before charging ahead with your design. I think you know that. It seems like you have a fair bit of pride tried up on your brain child and want to see it succeed which is understandable but you're making all your critical thoughts from a biased perspective. One example: you say some heat Loss to the under bay is a positive aspect of your steel floor but you would need to insulate under the pex floor to stop heat Loss. Both should probably have insulation. This steel floor could work but it's going to be oodles of work and an absolute nightmare if it ever cracks or leaks. What if the 18ga warps where you welded circles in the middle of it and it pops up and down when you walk on it? What CAD program are you using? Provably couldn't run some simulations for heat transfer across that floor? Do you know someone who could do that on their lunch break at work?

I don't think going to thicker plate under your floor will reflect the heat upwards. The conductivity will be the same, just a greater thermal mass on the bottom of the floor versus the top which won't help you.
Click to expand...​
You nailed it, sir. Either floor I build will be insulated underneath, though. I'd have to run the floor for a few days to figure out exactly how much heat loss through the bottom there would be and how much to insulate it and if I can use any of that heat loss to keep the bay temps warm enough to keep water from freezing.

The 18 gauge warping is a major concern. Didn't mention it because I figured it was obvious to all us that have run a welder. I used SketchUp for this, but I do also use Fusion360 which can simulate heat and stress. I don't mind all the work at all. Cracks will suck. If it happens, I can drain the floor and clean the crack enough to weld it up, though that's something certainly avoidable with a PEX system.

As far as going with PEX, I'd like to not use plywood. The ply in the bus is rotted in some places and I've hated ply for a long time. Every home I've been in and/or done work on has rotten plywood flooring or some in progress of rotting. Bring on the substitute material suggestions.
 
Grendel said:
We used aluminum.

I plan to float a floor over the top of Pex, once the side walls are trimmed out.​
I priced out stainless and aluminum sheet for this a while ago. Far too costly for the square footage of a bus. Are you laying anything in between the bottom aluminum and floating floor? We'll be laying down a click-lock, floating vinyl floor over top of whatever the radiant floor ends up being built with.
 
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