MCI 102-C3 coach to RV - Engine Bay

[JNHEscher]

One of my ideas about this style of manifold is doing it in 3 printer style with thin sheets then welding the ends of the "laminations" to form a solid chunk of steel. No machining required all made with plasma cut (or lazer for the bling) plates. Perimeter holes could be added for jigging with bolts for the clamping then welded solid to add anti-balooning strength.
Machining plate steel thick enough to be a manifold half is going to be costly.

This method would be made with cheap plate steel, stainless etc. I haven't worked out all the bugs but I think you are smart enough to.

Heh. I've pondered the exact same idea since you first posted the vid. Not crazy about the idea or feeling that ambitious, but money (or the lack of) talks.

The road side bank takes two 1.5" plates. I'll finish the models to get quotes out of curiosity. If they're too costly, I can slice the files to give myself dimensions for plaz cutting them myself.

One of our neighbors works in the welding shop at Fort Carson. They have full cnc equipment and will take on outside jobs. I may inquire.

 

[JNHEscher]

Finally got a new CPU fan in my laptop today so that I can continue my work. Roadside lower manifold half coming together. I'm learning splines and lofting along rails to make this happen.

The T4 flange is taller than the manifold plates need to be. I'll probably leave the flange off the model so that the machining cost is lower, then purchase T4 flanges to weld to the manifold plates.

Edit: Figured I'd add what progress I've made before heading to bed. Really easy process, but I'm having trouble with the outer runner loft narrowing between the face profiles. Got it to open up a bit by straightening the guide rail as much as is practical. Still looks narrow compared to the nicely lofted inner runner.

 

[JNHEscher]

There we go. Just had to add control point splines to either side of the loft to use as guide rails. The runners are ready for all the fine tuning needed.

Once these two runners are final, I'll mirror them over to the other two ports so that the four runners are symmetrical. I should be able to mirror the bottom plate to make the top in just a few clicks.

Forgot to mention that the head and T4 flange are 8" apart. Considering that these manifolds are about 25" wide, 8" seemed like a decent offset to start with. I could definitely bring the T4 much closer to the head. The only major effect would obviously be the outer runners incurring some tighter curves. I don't see it worth the effort to make equal-length runners (easy for me, but costly to machine).

 

[JNHEscher]

One quarter of the roadside manifold. Need to push the plate around a bit to minimize the steel volume. I'm relatively satisfied with the way the runner pathways curve and merge to clear the manifold studs and hardware. The notches are cut out to fit a 3/4", 12-point ratcheting wrench in to torque flange nuts with a 1" diameter flange. The upper manifold half will have pockets cut instead of full notches so that the stud nuts can be started on and then the manifold hooks over the studs.

Above and below views. Any suggested changes come to mind?

 

[JNHEscher]

Mirrored the sections to give it a looksie. I'm going to open up the outer stud ears and sweep off the excess plate. Still deciding whether to add bolt holes, dowel holes, or just clamp and weld.

Priced a 1.25"x25"x8" steel plate at $132 which isn't too bad. I'll need at least four of those. Something that occurred to me last night was to find some dirt cheap tractor weights to get milled. I'm on the hunt for local scrap chunks that would work.

I've rendered all my manifolds in glass for the appearance. Nice to see every facet.

 

[JNHEscher]

Made this tonight. Going to submit it for a quote in stainless 3D print.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Made this tonight. Going to submit it for a quote in stainless 3D print.

You're not gonna like the quote.

 

[CarterKraft]

As this drags on you might as well just buy a milling machine. It seems you are going to need it for the complexity of all of your symptoms.

 

[JNHEscher]

You're not gonna like the quote.

I know lol. Curiosity kills the cat.

 

[JNHEscher]

As this drags on you might as well just buy a milling machine. It seems you are going to need it for the complexity of all of your symptoms.

I made a thread on cnc mills. Waiting on the funds to come through so I can buy it. As I sit here and lose confidence in that ever happening, I lean more and more towards water jet flanges and building this in the "basket style" I had mentioned some time ago.

 

[JNHEscher]

Curbside mani took quite some time to tweak the runners. Waiting on the first quote from Xometry.

 

[realsquash]

OK I just read about 25 pages of this thread and my eyes crossed (maybe from whisky) and I stopped. I'll post some of my experience and offer to answer any questions since I didn't read everything. I'm familiar with MCI's just from watching the bus grease monkey, but that's it.

I have a 6v92TA in an old Wanderlodge that I've done a shit ton of work and updating, including the cooling system and hydraulic fan setup. I switched from a plain old gear motor to one with a bypass valve and PWM control (Danfoss) and built the rest of the stuff to run it. I also spec'd a one-off 2-stage Wesbster hydraulic pump since it also has to run my steering. Now I have a completely variable hydraulic fan that moves 35,000 cfm to maintain whatever temp I want (180). You might consider something like this for your setup.

If I were redoing radiators I'd be using an aluminum/plastic one from a Paccar model or something else along those lines. I know the MCI had duals, so maybe it's harder to find smaller ones that would fit yours. The Wanderlodge has one giant copper/brass thing and a 32" fan.

I've also looked at swapping the turbo to one of the VNT units the S60's run and might tackle that this summer depending on my schedule. They are robust, very responsive, cheap, and move plenty of air for me with a new bypass blower and bigger injectors. I would only be about 425-450hp, which is where an old 8v92ta is to start with. I think you're nuts to build all this twin turbo stuff, honestly. Way too much baloney to make it all work and you'll still be making the same power as I will with a $1200 brand new Garrett from an S60. But feel free to call me an asshole back

Anyways I'm just offering what I know to help if you want it. Good luck.

 

[JNHEscher]

OK I just read about 25 pages of this thread and my eyes crossed (maybe from whisky) and I stopped. I'll post some of my experience and offer to answer any questions since I didn't read everything. I'm familiar with MCI's just from watching the bus grease monkey, but that's it.

I have a 6v92TA in an old Wanderlodge that I've done a shit ton of work and updating, including the cooling system and hydraulic fan setup. I switched from a plain old gear motor to one with a bypass valve and PWM control (Danfoss) and built the rest of the stuff to run it. I also spec'd a one-off 2-stage Wesbster hydraulic pump since it also has to run my steering. Now I have a completely variable hydraulic fan that moves 35,000 cfm to maintain whatever temp I want (180). You might consider something like this for your setup.

If I were redoing radiators I'd be using an aluminum/plastic one from a Paccar model or something else along those lines. I know the MCI had duals, so maybe it's harder to find smaller ones that would fit yours. The Wanderlodge has one giant copper/brass thing and a 32" fan.

I've also looked at swapping the turbo to one of the VNT units the S60's run and might tackle that this summer depending on my schedule. They are robust, very responsive, cheap, and move plenty of air for me with a new bypass blower and bigger injectors. I would only be about 425-450hp, which is where an old 8v92ta is to start with. I think you're nuts to build all this twin turbo stuff, honestly. Way too much baloney to make it all work and you'll still be making the same power as I will with a $1200 brand new Garrett from an S60. But feel free to call me an asshole back

Anyways I'm just offering what I know to help if you want it. Good luck.

Dig it. Sounds like you've delved into your Detroit and dealt with the same problems/ideas. Kinda seems like Scott quit posting less Detroit stuff and more homestead stuff a while back, so I haven't watched much in a while.

Aside from the folded core radiators using steel fins packed way too tightly, I'm satisfied with using them so far. Just a little disgruntled with how to assemble them all together. It's all getting there, very slowly, but surely. I'll look into the Wanderlodge cooling. Hydraulic fan cooling was a pretty lengthy discussing a while back (hence your crossed eyes ). Got some testing of the electric setup to do, yet. Time to find and weather to contend with.

The turbo thing ended up being a hasty decision. I knew nothing of the S60's and still know nothing of them. Perhaps if I had known then what I know now... I've been in contact with a couple places about getting the new manifolds made. Too busy the last few days, but have to follow up a bunch on investment casting and such. I'd still like get a solid quote on something versus random estimates. Definitely would've used the OE marine twins for a bolt-up option if those turbs weren't $4k each.

Appreciate insight. Sometimes it helps to turn a lightbulb on.

 

[realsquash]

Dig it. Sounds like you've delved into your Detroit and dealt with the same problems/ideas. Kinda seems like Scott quit posting less Detroit stuff and more homestead stuff a while back, so I haven't watched much in a while.

Aside from the folded core radiators using steel fins packed way too tightly, I'm satisfied with using them so far. Just a little disgruntled with how to assemble them all together. It's all getting there, very slowly, but surely. I'll look into the Wanderlodge cooling. Hydraulic fan cooling was a pretty lengthy discussing a while back (hence your crossed eyes ). Got some testing of the electric setup to do, yet. Time to find and weather to contend with.

The turbo thing ended up being a hasty decision. I knew nothing of the S60's and still know nothing of them. Perhaps if I had known then what I know now... I've been in contact with a couple places about getting the new manifolds made. Too busy the last few days, but have to follow up a bunch on investment casting and such. I'd still like get a solid quote on something versus random estimates. Definitely would've used the OE marine twins for a bolt-up option if those turbs weren't $4k each.

Appreciate insight. Sometimes it helps to turn a lightbulb on.

On the hydraulic stuff I am well-versed. It's pretty simple once you spend enough money and do it wrong a few times. The Danfoss PWM stuff is super nice and I'm not wasting HP running the fan faster any more than I need to.

You could also get a new Borg Warner T6 turbo and adapt it. Does your 8V's turbo mount on the cartridge, where the oil drain comes out of the bottom and down through the blower? Some of them had a T6 flange-mount adapter that went down to the manifolds. That is easier to adapt something to. Even going to a modern BW with a billet wheel will work a lot better, even than the factory twins. All the twin setups I've seen also use water-cooled manifolds, which isn't good for power. All the TT setups (factory anyways) were rated for less power. I don't have enough room for twins of any kind on mine, I considered doing it. I also considered swapping in an 8v92, but it would require some work I just don't want to do. I'd love to figure out the cams for these engines sometime, too. Running a CAC on an 8V92 is worth some real HP if you can figure out where to put it!

Scott got afraid of the Rona early on. I thought he had the perfect job for Corona time - isolated, lives in his bus, working outside most of the time. But he didn't see it that way and they wanted out of Indy.

 

[JNHEscher]

On the hydraulic stuff I am well-versed. It's pretty simple once you spend enough money and do it wrong a few times. The Danfoss PWM stuff is super nice and I'm not wasting HP running the fan faster any more than I need to.

You could also get a new Borg Warner T6 turbo and adapt it. Does your 8V's turbo mount on the cartridge, where the oil drain comes out of the bottom and down through the blower? Some of them had a T6 flange-mount adapter that went down to the manifolds. That is easier to adapt something to. Even going to a modern BW with a billet wheel will work a lot better, even than the factory twins. All the twin setups I've seen also use water-cooled manifolds, which isn't good for power. All the TT setups (factory anyways) were rated for less power. I don't have enough room for twins of any kind on mine, I considered doing it. I also considered swapping in an 8v92, but it would require some work I just don't want to do. I'd love to figure out the cams for these engines sometime, too. Running a CAC on an 8V92 is worth some real HP if you can figure out where to put it!

Scott got afraid of the Rona early on. I thought he had the perfect job for Corona time - isolated, lives in his bus, working outside most of the time. But he didn't see it that way and they wanted out of Indy.

Yep, the OE Garrett sat atop the blower and drained to the blower. Gained 11" or so by removing it which is going to be quite handy later on. My 8v has the aftercooler mounted in the block below the blower. I'm pretty sure it caught the chunks of compressor wheel that blew into there, luckily - to be determined. I've considered removing it and going with an external intercooler - also to be determined.

As far as the twin swap, I wasn't looking to make more power. Mainly needed to replace the turbo and the pair was about the same price that I was being quoted for another OE Garrett at the time. I really wanted to tuck the turbos to the sides of the engine to tidy up the engine bay and be able to direct exhaust oil downward and out as opposed to pooling in the manifolds as it did before. I'm sure the engine needs some internal sprucing up. An in-frame is on the list. All in all, I'm doing a few things to make this engine quicker and easier to work on.

On the manifolds - buddy of mine recently got a 3D printer. He and his two boys have been printing off piles of test parts with some pretty good accuracy. Been talking with him tonight about printing my manifolds in sections so we can try making a plaster mold. Not sure this is the way to go for casting steel/stainless manifolds, especially considering their size, but I'm researching it. I would be thoroughly satisfied to do so and end up with some relatively compact manifolds to mount whatever turbo to.

 

[JNHEscher]

Stainless Bros T4 divided entry flange. About as close as I could get without having it 3D scanned.

 

[JNHEscher]

Riding shotgun and have this on the brain. I'll explain with pictures later. I have some experimenting to do.

 

[JNHEscher]

A little better shot of the roadside manifold with runner cores lofted between a head flange and a Stainless Bros T4 divided.

I have a test piece modeled for my buddy to print off in PLA. The test piece is made to plug into a section of 2.5" sch 10 stainless tube at each end. What I'm going to try out is banding stainless tig wires around the PLA test piece and tack welding the wires together and to the sch 10 in various locations until they've formed a semi-solid that can withstand the removal of the test piece. I'm not sure what kind of heat PLA filament can hold up to, but I'm hoping it has enough stability to handle the heat soak of a quick tack on the other side of some 3/32" rod. I'll likely have him print a second piece with wax filament since that cleans out so much easier. I'm just not sure that wax has near enough strength to hold shape as seen in the manifold assembly, even if it's printed as solid pieces rather than tubes.

If this works at all, the runner cores will be printed so that they plug into the head flange and fit the inlets of the T4 flange. They'll act as the form to wrap the tig wire around. This is sort of what I was referring to as the basket style since the tig wires are bundled similarly to weaving a wicker basket. 3D printing in metal wasn't working out due to the size, let alone whatever cost they may have been (never got a quote). I'm open to thoughts on the basket case. Seems like the cheapest and simplest way to go for what I want.

 

[JNHEscher]

Bombarding the thread with misc pics again just because I can. No sooner than I got done sending my buddy of vid of how the access projects in a Fusion 360 data panel after I added him to my 8V92 project folder, he had already accessed it and sent me a shot of the Stainless Bros flange ready to print. He's tentatively printing off my test tube piece tomorrow. I'm a bit antsy to see if this manifold build works out.

 

[JNHEscher]

Got to looking at my companion cylinder sketch last night and realized I had them wrong. Redrew the runners in Fusion. Turns out both banks would require the outer runners to join at one turbine inlet and the inner runners join at the other inlet. Makes for a tight mess. Mirrored the companion cylinder runners and the simplest arrangement together for comparison.

I don't see it worth making the companion manifolds as the outer runners are about twice the length of the inners, sort of defeating the purpose. Might as well keep it simple. The paired runners that are side by side fit just inside my buddy's Ender 5 Pro. I'd only need him to print two each of the mirrored pairs and they can remain joined for the print. The test piece was done this morning.

 

[JNHEscher]

Listing off the NRE turbo fastener sizes here rather than on another notepad page that I'll lose track of. Should be a lot easier to punch in a keyword or two here to find my list in seconds. Reason for this is I'm going to replace a few. Some were a fight to access, let alone break loose. With a few rounded heads on weak fasteners, I might as well improve while I'm at it.

Cartridge to turbine clamping bolts (6): 5/16"-18 x 0.48"UHL, 1/2" hex, grade 5

Cartridge to compressor bolts (4): 1/4"-20 x 0.6"UHL, 3/8" hex, 0.54"OD flange, grade 5

Compressor clamping bolts (6): 5/16"-18 x 0.49"UHL, 1/2" hex, 0.65"OD flange, grade 5

 

[JNHEscher]

Head flanges arrived today. I've got some grinding to do to make them fit. The quote said 0.002" cut tolerance. The order confirmation said 0.02" cut tolerance. In my head when I saw that - "Fuck. I drew that whole file with 0.020" clearance around all the studs."

 

[JNHEscher]

Went on a hunt last week for a local shop that would have a knee mill and an operator that could face mill one side of each head flange. Per a suggestion, I found C-Fab near Falcon, CO.

Went back with the owner to discuss how to best set up the flanges on his Bridgeport. The verdict was for me to tack weld the two flanges together so that the least damaged faces were opposing and the thickness of the two would raise the faces above the vice jaws. This also adds much needed rigidity as the flanges hang off either side of a vice by about 6". In doing this, he can clamp them up, mill one, then flip it and mill the other. He'll be putting a jack under each end hanging over to eliminate as much vibration as possible.

The pics - the pair tacked up, my first left-handed tig tack on the end ear, and the reason for getting these milled. The gaskets are MLS which kinda needs a smoother surface than what the stainless plate has that eMachine Shop cut these from.

After this, I'll need to order some fresh hardware and see if my buddy has had any luck with getting the runner bucks 3D printed.

 

[JNHEscher]

ARP 640-0750 for the win. 8mm 12-point allows a ratcheting wrench to fit in.

 

[JNHEscher]

Finally started on the turbo oil pump adapter plate.

 

[JNHEscher]

Focusing on the items needed to fire this thing up again.

Back when I tested out the first Hoverhawk fan, the motor spun it way better than I expected and probably better than anyone else expected. I've been going over my fan options list again. Thought I would instead go with a type 4 hub so that the blade pitch could be adjusted. Rather, I'll probably go with some more type 3 blades at the shallowest pitch and as many as I can put on a hub. It appears that I can fit as many as 12 blades on a type 3, according to the Hoverhawk site. 27" is the largest shown for a type 3. I'm going to call and ask if he offers blades large enough to make maybe a 32" so that I can go with one large fan per core assembly rather than the two smaller fans per assembly and just order the blades to fit the hub I already have. Type 3 blades are half the price of type 4 and a bundle of 8 blades is half the cost of the whole kit.

It's anybody's guess as to what horsepower the fan took with a 50 deg. pitch at 2,500ish RPM. Worth a shot to try a larger fan at half the pitch. I'll soon be acquiring the cabling and such to hook this up again, but with the PWM controller.

Finally got the core arrangement mocked up correctly. The core tubes are positioned parallel to the air flow and the gap between the cores is tighter than they previously were.

 

[JNHEscher]

Got the motor hooked up on the PWM controller and lithium batteries. The controller works great. Now to test it again with a fan attached. Measured 2,206 RPM without a load.

 

[JNHEscher]

Riddle me this:

I know current draw of many motors can drop due to load/speed of higher RPM, depending on the application. I can't remember the whole gist of the why, other than it's similar to momentum. The odd part here is that I'm seeing a max of 25 amps drawn between the batteries and controller when the pot is somewhere around 75%. When I get past that 75%, the current draw drops significantly and ends up showing 1 amp at full speed. This can't be right. Same goes when measuring between the controller and motor, but at a lower current.

Yesterday, I bought a new Kobalt clamp meter yesterday because my Radio Shack meter finally quit on me. Kobalt was one of three brand options a Lowe's and neither of them really appealed to me. Not too confident in this Kobalt, though the readings are very consistent.

Took video of both readings. I could probably get them onto YT. Swapped the fan and motor direction and got the same results.

Edit: Borrowed a neighbor's clamp meter to compare measurements side-by-side and got the exact same thing within 1 amp of my meter for most of the run. Ends up at 0.8 amps at full speed and tops out at 20 amps at the 75%ish mark.

I couldn't give a ballpark of what CFM the fan is pushing, but it's quite a bit and can't imagine why it would only be using 1 amp.

 

[JNHEscher]

Picked up the milled flanges from C-Fab today. Zipped the tack welds off, knocked the flanges apart, and tidied up the slots with a diamond wheel. They fit great, now.

I have to order new studs. Stuck my head in for a closer look as I was about the spin the nuts on and saw that each stud had pipe wrench bite marks. I've read a couple of times that these studs run right into the water jacket. It that's true, I'll have to get some good thread sealant. View attachment 377354

 

[JNHEscher]

On to the second Dart PWM controller. Accidentally hooked up the first controller to the wrong battery posts last night. POW! Couldn't find any evidence of anything being burnt besides the cable lug, but the controller smells burnt and isn't cooperating.

Running smooth on the second controller. Wife and I went over the amperage and adjustments. The top speed current draw will still drop to 1 amp and if crank the max speed adjuster all the way up, but doing so causes the speed pot to be more an on/off switch. Backing the max speed down a little causes the speed pot to become stable and the top speed current draw floats between 9 and 12 amps which.

All in all, everything looks good to use two larger fans. I've got to decided on what to connect the radiator cores with so I can start slapping all this stuff in.