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Holocaust denial?

[486 said:
;n110638]

clearly, but the goalposts for "holocaust denial" has moved from
'it didn't happen'
to the much more innocuous stance of
'why has it seen more air time than all the other genocide since'
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Now you sound just like the BLM guys getting pissed over saying all lives matter. The point is, why is this genocide more important then others? They are all equally bad and desire the same amount of remembrance.
 
bdkw1 said:
Now you sound just like the BLM guys getting pissed over saying all lives matter. The point is, why is this genocide more important then others? They are all equally bad and desire the same amount of remembrance.
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do you just spend your whole life trying to be mad about something?
bolded bit is exactly my point
 
[486 said:
;n111029]

do you just spend your whole life trying to be mad about something?
bolded bit is exactly my point
Click to expand...

Can't you just let him enjoy nitpicking the details of an undeniable atrocity? :rolleyes:















:flipoff2:
 
[486 said:
;n111029]

do you just spend your whole life trying to be mad about something?
bolded bit is exactly my point
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I'm not mad at all, just stating facts. But apparently stating facts makes one a racist in the new norm.
 
posford said:
I think everyone can also agree on that, but you gotta remember that everything is like that right now politically. Look at all the US history that's now considered "racist" it's now becoming generational retardation.
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This is exactly the problem. Unfortunately its my generations (X) fault. Most Xer's have allowed their children (anyone after 1990 for the most part) to behave as spoiled little bastards without being held accountable
 
Stuck said:
This is exactly the problem. Unfortunately its my generations (X) fault. Most Xer's have allowed their children (anyone after 1990 for the most part) to behave as spoiled little bastards without being held accountable
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Ours is the generation that brags about rubbing dirt into our wounds, yet won't let our kids go outside unsupervised. I'm not saying it's just our fault, but we took existing bad trends and put them in overdrive.
 
Does it have to be all or nothing?

Are you considered a holocaust denier if you believe that 5.5 million jews were killed instead of 6 million?
 
partial denying is diminishing. Diminishing is a rhetorical tool to reduce the value or importance of a thing, act, event. The effect is to reduce the impact. So, a partial denier would be someone who has determined to try to reduce the impact or importance of the holocaust by expressing that it is less than reported. Doing that reduces his responsibility or the burden of being a denier (reducing the people who will call him out) and, over time, as that becomes a popular way to contextualize the historical events, it loses its power to influence and eventually, all is forgotten.

It is very similar to the resistance to, 'well, gosh, don't all lives matter?' The purpose of the movement is to focus on the plight of a single race of people. If that is diminished, eventually it is excused.

The take of folks who believe that the facts of the holocaust are clear, concise and correct is that if we can agree to that, we can learn that such a thing would never be tolerated again. (which would honor previous, similar, events.) If folks water it down by misstating the facts or remembering that they were only taught xyz (which may be true, but orthogonal) or which may just be a vehicle to reduce the impact.

The flaw that would exist in someone who would deny the historical facts when they have been made fully aware of them, and yet still choose the false narrative, would make me not trust that person.
 
lots of words for "yup, if you think it might have been 5,999,999 people, or exacerbated by the fact that all of germany was starving at the time you're ten times worse than hitler"
 
Interesting reply.

I often hear people claim they don't think the number was that high. Some say it was only 1 million, others claim it was hundreds of thousands.
Despite 6M, 1M, or 500,000 - they all do agree that regardless of the number, even if it was only 1,000 it was a horrible thing and I have never met anyone that would disagree with that.

I have not done just research on the subject to have a valid opinion myself, so I can't challenge any numbers.

Do you think that perhaps by demanding everyone to accept the 6M number, it may alienate otherwise good people who's only fault is they happen to think the number was less, while still in the same camp that any number is too many?

For me, unless and until I have a reason to doubt the person before me, by default on the topic I willfully accept their version and speak to that. Because I don't know better.
 
Saw this tweet'd earlier, thought it relevant.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/16/holocaust-us-adults-study
Almost two-thirds of young American adults do not know that 6 million Jews were killed during the Holocaust, and more than one in 10 believe Jews caused the Holocaust, a new survey has found, revealing shocking levels of ignorance about the greatest crime of the 20th century.

According to the study of millennial and Gen Z adults aged between 18 and 39, almost half (48%) could not name a single concentration camp or ghetto established during the second world war.

Almost a quarter of respondents (23%) said they believed the Holocaust was a myth, or had been exaggerated, or they weren’t sure. One in eight (12%) said they had definitely not heard, or didn’t think they had heard, about the Holocaust.

More than half (56%) said they had seen Nazi symbols on their social media platforms and/or in their communities, and almost half (49%) had seen Holocaust denial or distortion posts on social media or elsewhere online.

“The results are both shocking and saddening, and they underscore why we must act now while Holocaust survivors are still with us to voice their stories,” said Gideon Taylor, president of the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany (Claims Conference) which commissioned the survey.

Taylor added: “We need to understand why we aren’t doing better in educating a younger generation about the Holocaust and the lessons of the past. This needs to serve as a wake-up call to us all, and as a road map of where government officials need to act.”

The survey, the first to drill down to state level in the US, ranks states according to a score based on three criteria: whether young people have definitely heard about the Holocaust; whether they can name one concentration camp, death camp or ghetto; and whether they know 6 million Jews were killed.

The top-scoring state was Wisconsin, where 42% of millennial and Gen Z adults met all three criteria, followed by Minnesota at 37% and Massachusetts at 35%. The lowest-scoring states were Florida at 20%, Mississippi at 18% and Arkansas at 17%.

Nationally, 63% of respondents did not know 6 million Jews were murdered during the Holocaust, and more than one in three (36%) thought 2 million or fewer had been killed.

Eleven per cent of respondents across the US believed that Jews had caused the Holocaust, with the proportion in New York state at 19%, followed by 16% in Louisiana, Tennessee and Montana, and 15% in Arizona, Connecticut, Georgia, Nevada and New Mexico.

Nationally, 44% of those questioned were able to identify Auschwitz-Birkenau, and only 3% were familiar with Bergen-Belsen. Six out of 10 respondents in Texas could not name a single concentration camp or ghetto.

However, almost two-thirds (64%) of American millennial and Gen Z adults believe Holocaust education should be compulsory in schools. Seven out of 10 said it was not acceptable for an individual to hold neo-Nazi views.

The Claims Conference, whose mission is “to provide a measure of justice for Jewish Holocaust victims”, set up a taskforce to oversee the survey. It included Holocaust survivors, historians and experts from Yad Vashem and the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.

Data was collected from 1,000 interviews nationwide and 200 interviews in each state with young adults aged 18 to 39 selected at random.
Click to expand...
 
Numbers likely inflated. Atrocities committed from far Right ideologies are always painted to be more serious and evil than the same atrocities committed by Communists. You can see this today with governments and police forces essentially standing down as radical left Antifa/BLM mobs are allowed to riot, loot, and set cars on fire. Imagine if the same violent rioting was being done by skinhead neo-Nazis and McVeigh types. The response would be MUCH more serious and swift from the Government and law enforcement. We've already seen an innocent 17 year-old kid labeled a murderer for defending himself.
 
the conserbullshivative atheist said:
Numbers likely inflated. Atrocities committed from far Right ideologies are always painted to be more serious and evil than the same atrocities committed by Communists. You can see this today with governments and police forces essentially standing down as radical left Antifa/BLM mobs are allowed to riot, loot, and set cars on fire. Imagine if the same violent rioting was being done by skinhead neo-Nazis and McVeigh types. The response would be MUCH more serious and swift from the Government and law enforcement. We've already seen an innocent 17 year-old kid labeled a murderer for defending himself.
Click to expand...
rubbish thinking on your part
 
Yota Up said:
Interesting reply.

I often hear people claim they don't think the number was that high. Some say it was only 1 million, others claim it was hundreds of thousands.
Despite 6M, 1M, or 500,000 - they all do agree that regardless of the number, even if it was only 1,000 it was a horrible thing and I have never met anyone that would disagree with that.

I have not done just research on the subject to have a valid opinion myself, so I can't challenge any numbers.

Do you think that perhaps by demanding everyone to accept the 6M number, it may alienate otherwise good people who's only fault is they happen to think the number was less, while still in the same camp that any number is too many?

For me, unless and until I have a reason to doubt the person before me, by default on the topic I willfully accept their version and speak to that. Because I don't know better.
Click to expand...

I messed this post up. I wanting to go in a direction of trust, in that when someone says something it should be ok for the listener to question it. To be told "accept what I say in full value or else" seems like it would instantly reduce the trust of listener.

If I say "my pool is 100ft long" and you question that, I would welcome you to use a tape measure.
But I get defensive and hostile about it, it may show that perhaps I'm not confident about my own number myself.
Especially if the other person says "even if your pool is only 10ft long, I think it's great".

This is a very difficult subject to articulate positions on. It feels like walking a mine field.
 
Yota Up said:
Interesting reply.

I often hear people claim they don't think the number was that high. Some say it was only 1 million, others claim it was hundreds of thousands.
Despite 6M, 1M, or 500,000 - they all do agree that regardless of the number, even if it was only 1,000 it was a horrible thing and I have never met anyone that would disagree with that.

I have not done just research on the subject to have a valid opinion myself, so I can't challenge any numbers.

Do you think that perhaps by demanding everyone to accept the 6M number, it may alienate otherwise good people who's only fault is they happen to think the number was less, while still in the same camp that any number is too many?

For me, unless and until I have a reason to doubt the person before me, by default on the topic I willfully accept their version and speak to that. Because I don't know better.
Click to expand...

I think debating the topic, questioning it, is similar to flat earthers. There is a purpose to them trying to muddy the waters. People who like to 'stir the drink' or create obfuscation are, in my experience, up to no good. It doesn't mean that I wont use that data point and continue working with them, but I will show extra vigilance because I have allowed the first questionable action, so, if the guy turns out to be not trustworthy it is on me.

I respect your point though. To clarify, I would add scrutiny vs. dismiss.

Would you dismiss a 'flat earther'? I would.
 
Yota Up said:
I messed this post up. I wanting to go in a direction of trust, in that when someone says something it should be ok for the listener to question it. To be told "accept what I say in full value or else" seems like it would instantly reduce the trust of listener.

If I say "my pool is 100ft long" and you question that, I would welcome you to use a tape measure.
But I get defensive and hostile about it, it may show that perhaps I'm not confident about my own number myself.
Especially if the other person says "even if your pool is only 10ft long, I think it's great".

This is a very difficult subject to articulate positions on. It feels like walking a mine field.
Click to expand...

Agree on your pool. On the holocaust, it has been studied EXTENSIVELY. It has been studied and concluded on, even the offending country accepts and supports the numbers.

If you were standing at your pool and you measured it with 10 friends, 10 times and it is 100'. You post pictures, you show the dimensions. 1000 people come visit the pool and measure it and they all come up with 100'.... and then your buddy questions it... I'd have doubts about him and why he continues to question something that has been asked and answered with authority and repetition.
 
gladman said:
Agree on your pool. On the holocaust, it has been studied EXTENSIVELY. It has been studied and concluded on, even the offending country accepts and supports the numbers.

If you were standing at your pool and you measured it with 10 friends, 10 times and it is 100'. You post pictures, you show the dimensions. 1000 people come visit the pool and measure it and they all come up with 100'.... and then your buddy questions it... I'd have doubts about him and why he continues to question something that has been asked and answered with authority and repetition.
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the offending country killed itself, was finished off at neuremberg, and the rest went to argentina and brazil :flipoff2: germany is really a purely modern country these days, aren't they only like 20 years old or some crap?
 
pvkj454 said:
I went to Aushwitz a few months ago. It was a humbling experience. I don't understand how people don't believe it happened but then again there is Antifa so people believe stupid crap.
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Sums it up. You do know what AnitFacist originally was? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(Germany)
Also, the NAzis killed a shit ton of non-jews as well, including thousands of Germans.




Also: You guys need to stop comparing communism to liberalism. Liberals are Americans, not the enemy. Get that in your fking heads already.
 
Provience said:
the offending country killed itself, was finished off at neuremberg, and the rest went to argentina and brazil :flipoff2: germany is really a purely modern country these days, aren't they only like 20 years old or some crap?
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Yes, but they remember. History doesn't go away just because a "new constitution" is put in place.
Americans will learn all about that in the near future.
 
ev13wt said:
Yes, but they remember. History doesn't go away just because a "new constitution" is put in place.
Americans will learn all about that in the near future.
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:laughing: history should never go away, but yeah a new constitution and new boundaries and a new culture make for a new country. I understand why ze germans want to keep up their ties, tough to admit they are able to be a dominating economic powerhouse while only being a couple decades old.

pretty amazing what the practical difference between individualism/capitalism in the west and collectivism/communism in the east once re-unification came about. Despite that glaring demonstration, there are still people in germany that think individualism is poison. :lmao:

Is there any more obvious sort of anything? anything that could possibly demonstrate the failures of that german collectivist ideology?
 
ev13wt said:
Yes, but they remember. History doesn't go away just because a "new constitution" is put in place.
Americans will learn all about that in the near future.
Click to expand...

I think many would say we are learning about that right now... which is why the unrest exists.
 
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