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Holocaust denial?

Scott Cee aka 2drx4

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So the person I'm working with right now is somebody I've known for years, but not known really well. We've done a handful of jobs together over that time frame at different companies, and we know a certain amount about each other from the conversations we've had during those times, but I wouldn't say we're in any way close.

During a discussion of COVID, protests, electronic tracking, vaccinations, government incompetence, etc. (you know, typical conversations you have with people you don't know that well) he admitted that he is a "partial" holocaust denier in a passing comment. I think we were specifically talking about mandatory vaccination at that point. A chance has not presented itself to follow up this aspect of the conversation to explore this rabbit hole, and get a proper summary of what exactly "partial" holocaust denial means, but I can make some assumptions.

So, does anyone here either fully or partially deny the holocaust? Or know (like actually know, not "I saw it on the TV/CNN/Internet" know) anyone that does? How exactly do you, or they, justify this? What exactly is "partial" holocaust denial anyways?

To clarify what "Holocaust" means in the context of my post, I am referring to the systematic displacement and elimination (murder) of some 6~ million Jews between 1940-1945~ by the Nazi Party of the then Germany (German Reich, or "Nazi Germany" as it is often referred to) nation and her allies, under orders of Hitler, Himmler, Eichmann, Et al.
 

det107

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I worked with a guy from Sweden (became a US citizen) who was aware of the camps (used to give them food pkges over the fence) but believed the 6 million deaths number is too much...

From reading history, I think the Jews stole the Ukraine genocide & passed it off as their own-
 

Mikel

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Millions of Americans deny the crimes committed by socialist/communist regimes. Does that count?
 

Scott Cee aka 2drx4

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I worked with a guy from Sweden (became a US citizen) who was aware of the camps (used to give them food pkges over the fence) but believed the 6 million deaths number is too much...

From reading history, I think the Jews stole the Ukraine genocide & passed it off as their own-

Hmm.

Millions of Americans deny the crimes committed by socialist/communist regimes. Does that count?

Millions deny that the Nazi party was in fact a socialist party and instead paint them as only being nationalists or fascists. I do actually agree with the argument that you are denying an aspect of the Holocaust by denying the link to socialism. Is that what counts as being a "partial" denier?
 

Provience

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I'd think "partial" could easily mean that he disputes the number or disputes the support/involvement from the general german population.

but anybody that would lead with "partial denier" would be interesting to talk to in a likely batshit kind of way.
 

SLOWPOKE693

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I'd think "partial" could easily mean that he disputes the number or disputes the support/involvement from the general german population.

but anybody that would lead with "partial denier" would be interesting to talk to in a likely batshit kind of way.

I agree. Sounds like it might be a fun can of worms to open up. :laughing:
 

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I went to Aushwitz a few months ago. It was a humbling experience. I don't understand how people don't believe it happened but then again there is Antifa so people believe stupid crap.
 

Scott Cee aka 2drx4

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I agree. Sounds like it might be a fun can of worms to open up. :laughing:

Yeah, I'm hoping to get the chance.


For the people who deny/dispute the numbers, or say "they make it out to be that only Jews were killed", it is officially recognized that around 6 million Jews were killed, and around 7.5 million "others" on top of that. So less than 50% of those who were killed were Jews. If you took history in high school, they likely made it sound like 98% of those killed were Jews, along with a few gypsies and gay men. At least certainly the high school I went to did. High school history is unfortunately either too condensed, too dumbed down, or perhaps is presented with a certain amount of bias to accurately reflect what is commonly believed by actual historians. I may be a "partial" denier for making that statement too, although I do not believe it was any sort of a Jewish conspiracy to steal the limelight from the other people who were killed. I think post-war Jewish groups were far more organized when it came to demanding recognition, and with the rise of the Iron Curtain the death of certain Eastern Europeans was largely ignored by the public in the west, and publications aimed at schools are inherently biased towards lobby groups as their selection is often based on the interests of those groups versus the interest of presenting history with as little bias as possible.
 

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I'm no denier, but we are currently watching history be re-written to fit the left wing media's desires. Makes you wonder what else in the standard history book is complete crap.
 

Mr Stubs

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I'm no denier, but we are currently watching history be re-written to fit the left wing media's desires. Makes you wonder what else in the standard history book is complete crap.
There is so much truth in this statement...

Back to the OP...

Believe it happened, yes.

Correct numbers, I have no fucking clue.


But as stated earlier, do we really think about all the “others”? All I ever remember from schooling didn’t have much to do with the “others”.
 

Provience

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Yeah, I'm hoping to get the chance.


For the people who deny/dispute the numbers, or say "they make it out to be that only Jews were killed", it is officially recognized that around 6 million Jews were killed, and around 7.5 million "others" on top of that. So less than 50% of those who were killed were Jews. If you took history in high school, they likely made it sound like 98% of those killed were Jews, along with a few gypsies and gay men. At least certainly the high school I went to did. High school history is unfortunately either too condensed, too dumbed down, or perhaps is presented with a certain amount of bias to accurately reflect what is commonly believed by actual historians. I may be a "partial" denier for making that statement too, although I do not believe it was any sort of a Jewish conspiracy to steal the limelight from the other people who were killed. I think post-war Jewish groups were far more organized when it came to demanding recognition, and with the rise of the Iron Curtain the death of certain Eastern Europeans was largely ignored by the public in the west, and publications aimed at schools are inherently biased towards lobby groups as their selection is often based on the interests of those groups versus the interest of presenting history with as little bias as possible.

I wouldn't consider myself a partial denier, but I was also taught in a way that made it seem like all the nazi's killed were jews. Adding to that amount to say that they killed ~half jews doesn't diminish the amount of jews they killed, it was just a realization later in life that the nazis were a bad fucking deal in a great many ways.
 

Thefishguy77

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I was taught some philosophy from Mao but not about the 10’s of millions of people he killed while in HS. I was already properly educated to who Mao was but that was the first real mention besides a brief naming of rulers of China but no significance.
 

Scott Cee aka 2drx4

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I wouldn't consider myself a partial denier, but I was also taught in a way that made it seem like all the nazi's killed were jews. Adding to that amount to say that they killed ~half jews doesn't diminish the amount of jews they killed, it was just a realization later in life that the nazis were a bad fucking deal in a great many ways.

That's the thing, in no way do I feel I'm detracting from the Jewish suffering and loss by pointing out that they made up a little less than half the people who were killed. It's still an extreme amount, and it was obvious that they were specifically targeted, and Jewish populations were effectively removed from entire areas under German control. I don't feel I'm denying anything, but I could see *some* people interpreting it that way. Perhaps that's what my coworker meant, probably not though. I think the current fringe left leans pretty hard towards antisemitism, while at the same time trying to paint other people as Nazis and Holocaust deniers, and really I think they're the only people who would make the illogical argument that a statement like that is in any way denial of the Holocaust.
 

Scott Cee aka 2drx4

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I was taught some philosophy from Mao but not about the 10’s of millions of people he killed while in HS. I was already properly educated to who Mao was but that was the first real mention besides a brief naming of rulers of China but no significance.

I struggle to remember what we were even taught about Mao in high school. Cultural revolution, some people died, they tried to industrialize poorly, now they make our stuff. :confused: Definitely there was nowhere near the fanfare regarding his body count as there was with Nazi Germany.
 

Provience

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That's the thing, in no way do I feel I'm detracting from the Jewish suffering and loss by pointing out that they made up a little less than half the people who were killed. It's still an extreme amount, and it was obvious that they were specifically targeted, and Jewish populations were effectively removed from entire areas under German control. I don't feel I'm denying anything, but I could see *some* people interpreting it that way. Perhaps that's what my coworker meant, probably not though. I think the current fringe left leans pretty hard towards antisemitism, while at the same time trying to paint other people as Nazis and Holocaust deniers, and really I think they're the only people who would make the illogical argument that a statement like that is in any way denial of the Holocaust.

it's the really confused palestein (spelling?) stance and strange war/nowar middle east position that makes them anti-semites. they want to claim jews as a minority that must be part of their fold, but they despite the existence of israel.

i dunno, somehow "leave people the fuck alone" isn't enough drama for them
 

Provience

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I struggle to remember what we were even taught about Mao in high school. Cultural revolution, some people died, they tried to industrialize poorly, now they make our stuff. :confused: Definitely there was nowhere near the fanfare regarding his body count as there was with Nazi Germany.

i'm not sure we covered china at all except that they developed paper and gun powder. china prior to 1800? sure. Post 1800? only to mention they slaved on the railroads
 
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I struggle to remember what we were even taught about Mao in high school. Cultural revolution, some people died, they tried to industrialize poorly, now they make our stuff. :confused: Definitely there was nowhere near the fanfare regarding his body count as there was with Nazi Germany.

We were taught about Mao and the great new society in my HS in the 90s. But i think I was in my 20s before I learned that China lost damn near as many people as Russia in WW2. Both of those countries—to think they took such crazy losses in the war, then immediately followed it up by systematically killing their own people.... fuck.

I do seem to remember that the Holocaust victims were taught to be mostly Jews, though. It wasn’t until I visited the museum at Auschwitz that I understood how many Gypsies were killed, or how many sick/handicapped people of every stripe.

As far as deniers of the whole thing, I can’t fathom that. There were some young skinheads in the museum when I went through there, and they were doing what they could to make a spectacle of themselves. Trying to pretend they thought it was funny that people took it so seriously. I can only hope those stupid fucks grew out of that, and look back on all of it with true shame.
 

Provience

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so technically, we brought it on ourselves"

that's a massive stretch. overcompensation in the other direction, sure, use it as a lecture note for why jews should stick with the torah and disavow communism. anything outside of that, to say that jews in germany fomented their own demise by genocide is....pretty fuckin' stupid.
 

Scott Cee aka 2drx4

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If anyone is interested in reading an account of Auschwitz from the inside, I do recommend this book. I can assure you it will never win any awards for being feel-good literature. Yes, he volunteered to be captured and taken to Auschwitz for the purpose of exposing what was going on there.

20200616_153736.jpg
 

ScottRS

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Been to Bergen-Belsen and Dachau. My great uncle was part of the "liberation party" at Buchenwald.

Yes, the Holocaust is (poorly) taught here as "they mostly killed Jews". In truth, less than half were Jews. But Jews made up the largest single demographic killed. Much of our history is similarly poorly taught in Europe, there's only so much time, they're trying to hit the high points and if you want to research more go for it.
 

evernoob

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So, does anyone here either fully or partially deny the holocaust?


Trick question, it's a False Equivalency or False Dilemma. You either fully agree with Holocaust orthodoxy, or you are a Denier.

Just because I question various aspects of the Holocaust does not mean that I 'Deny' that the Holocaust happened.

The best documented instance of the Holocaust that the US has is Auschwitz-II Birkenau.

If I say that Auschitz-II implies that there is an Auschwitz-I, and in fact that these were 2 of the 3 'death camps' in the industrial enclave of Auschwitz, Poland, this does not mean that I minimize the mostly-Jewish Auschwitz-II tragedy at Birkenau.

However, in some circles, mostly Academia or your professional life, you will be associated with Anti-Semitism.

You: "Auschwitz-II, the Jewish death camp, was just one of three camps at Auschwitz".

They: "Are you saying the Holocaust doesn't count? Are you saying what the Jews experienced was not tragic? Are you denying that the Nazis were attempting to exterminate the Jews?"

You: "Oh, no no no! I'm just saying... I saw this documentary, Auschwitz From The Air, they had photos of all the death camps... my first boss was Jewish, and I had a Jewish girlfriend.... Jeeze guys I'm not a Nazi! The Holocaust was terrible, I really like Schindler's List!"

Do not tolerate False Equivalencies in History, they are dangerous and dishonest. Hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers, Roma, and Poles were killed at Auschwitz, probably more (certainly more) than the Jews that were killed at Auschwitz-II.
 
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My oldest son is 27. He questions the numbers killed, and so do some of his friends his age. They don’t believe that they were able to kill with enough efficiency to create those numbers. I’ve read enough first hand accounts to believe it.

It’s a simple matter of enough time passing and the events falling far enough back in time that people question what they are taught and nobody (for the most part) is left to give first hand accounts.
 

evernoob

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My oldest son is 27. He questions the numbers killed, and so do some of his friends his age. They don’t believe that they were able to kill with enough efficiency to create those numbers. I’ve read enough first hand accounts to believe it.

It’s a simple matter of enough time passing and the events falling far enough back in time that people question what they are taught and nobody (for the most part) is left to give first hand accounts.

If there is consistent question into how many are killed, then that actually keeps the history relevant. Every single Deaths of Magnitude event in world history has controversial body counts. Some of the most popular or relevant:
  • Civil War dead
  • Holodomor dead
  • Turkish cleansing of ethnic Greeks
  • Russian Famine of 1922-23
  • Maoist Cultural Revolution
  • Mao's 'Great Leap Forward' (actuall 2 separate events)
  • Number of dead at Tiananmen Square (in fact few died on the Square itself, at least 3,000 died around the square, in some cases their bodies ground up by APCs and bulldozed into gutters ON the Square)
And further
  • Toba Catastrophe Theory (human population reduced to possible 10,000 individuals, 70,000 years ago)
  • PreCambrian and other evolutionary extinctions
Counting and revising numbers of deaths is one of the central pillars of History. It's core history.

The number of Holocaust dead, and the manner of deaths, and the locations of those deaths, has been revised several times and should continue to be revised, with broad active inquiry and participation.

Being orthodox about the matters literally creates anti-semites and Holocaust Deniers.
 

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I believe the numbers. There was so much death in that war. Simply look at the amount of Russians killed by the Nazis when they surrendered.

Luckily we had a great history teacher in HS. I remember one year he made us all pick something, research it, and present it to the class. I picked The Rape of Nanking. It was the first time I really learned about the Pacific theater and the genocide Japan was committing against the Chinese.

Like stated above, there's nowhere near enough time HS to cover all of history. Some of my faborite WWII history has to do with Finland, and I didn't learn about that until way after HS.
 

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But i think I was in my 20s before I learned that China lost damn near as many people as Russia in WW2.

I was today years old. :eek:

It's amazing to consider how formidable Japan would have been after Pearl Harbor if they hadn't been fighting China all along.
 

Truckedup

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I was today years old. :eek:

It's amazing to consider how formidable Japan would have been after Pearl Harbor if they hadn't been fighting China all along.

Would not have mattered all that much..Japan never built enough equipment to handle the logistics of moving soldiers and equipment for a wide scale war..
 
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