Dune(ish) Buggy

[Dethmachinefab]

Driving it yet?

 

[plym49.2]

Nah. Still sitting in the pix as last posted.

No Time.

No leads on a VW motor, much less an affordable one.

Me realizing that I have more parts on hand (SBC, Super T-10 with 2.43 first, D35 rear) than VW parts. Fantasizing about a close-coupled Cheetah-ish short-wheelbase runner. Keep the VW front end. Would be best with a Jag IRS (Dana 44 center with LS) but sadly I sold off all of my old Jag parts years ago. Maybe solid mount the entire driveline on a long triangular subframe pivoted at the front and coil spring suspended at the rear. Holy unsprung weight....

So, yeah, just daydreaming.

 

[PAToyota]

So, yeah, just daydreaming.

The shop I'm at rebuilt their VW sandrail, threw a Manx body on it, used a GM Eco-Tec engine, Berrien chassis, and a VW bus transmission and took it to NORRA the other year...

 

[plym49.2]

The shop I'm at rebuilt their VW sandrail, threw a Manx body on it, used a GM Eco-Tec engine, Berrien chassis, and a VW bus transmission and took it to NORRA the other year...

That's pretty neat.

 

[Bebop]

The shop I'm at rebuilt their VW sandrail, threw a Manx body on it, used a GM Eco-Tec engine, Berrien chassis, and a VW bus transmission and took it to NORRA the other year...

HAWT

 

[plym49.2]

Scored an entire Jag XJ-S IRS rear. 63K miles; out of a V12 car so has a LS diff, which is a Dana 44 with 3.54 gears.

Inboard disks, 4 coil-overs, Chevy bot pattern (except for hub opening. Entire thing mounts to a flat crossmember with 4 bolts.

Also have my 2.43 CR Super T-10 from back in the day. And have a couple-few SBCs.

So the buggy will get stretched, lose the VW transaxle, cardan joint to close couple the trans to the rear.

 

[plym49.2]

Started taking measurements. I'll post more detail with pix, but basically the Jag rear is roughly 60" WMS to WMS. Wheelbase is 77".

I'm thinking the rad will be front-mounted about a foot behind the VW front end. The seats will prolly be about 6" to a foot further back than they are now.

Wondering what WB I should be shooting for. I'm sure the frame will have to be stretched 12 to 18".

Powertrain will be a SBC with Super T10 feeding into the Jag rear. I would not mind running something short for a driveline; maybe a YJ shaft?

Any initial thoughts? I realize it will be better once I get the pix up.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Sounds like a death trap in the making. I like the idea!

 

[PAToyota]

Powertrain will be a SBC with Super T10 feeding into the Jag rear.

Sounds like a death trap in the making. I like the idea!

Wondering what WB I should be shooting for. I'm sure the frame will have to be stretched 12 to 18".

We build a custom tube steel chassis in either 80" or 95.5" versions:

Dune Buggy Chassis by Berrien Buggy

80″ Wheelbase 95 1/2 ” Wheelbase 80″ Wheelbase 2″ Main Frame 1 1/2″ Infrastructure Designed for VW Type 1 Running Gear (1958-78) [Except Super Beetle] 2″ …

acmecarco.com

 

[plym49.2]

We build a custom tube steel chassis in either 80" or 95.5" versions:

Dune Buggy Chassis by Berrien Buggy

80″ Wheelbase 95 1/2 ” Wheelbase 80″ Wheelbase 2″ Main Frame 1 1/2″ Infrastructure Designed for VW Type 1 Running Gear (1958-78) [Except Super Beetle] 2″ …

acmecarco.com

So that sets a floor of increasing the WB 20-odd inches. Thanks - gives me a starting point for mockup.

 

[PAToyota]

To give some visual reference, the 80" (right) is your standard Manx-clone size chassis (our Nostalgia body). The 95.5" (left) is our longer "four seat" size chassis (our Genesis body).

The one on the left has a tonneau cover instead of rear seats as it is a GTX+ with an EcoTec instead of a VW engine.

 

[Bebop]

To give some visual reference, the 80" (right) is your standard Manx-clone size chassis (our Nostalgia body). The 95.5" (left) is our longer "four seat" size chassis (our Genesis body).

The one on the left has a tonneau cover instead of rear seats as it is a GTX+ with an EcoTec instead of a VW engine.

looks bitchin !

 

[plym49.2]

To give some visual reference, the 80" (right) is your standard Manx-clone size chassis (our Nostalgia body). The 95.5" (left) is our longer "four seat" size chassis (our Genesis body).

The one on the left has a tonneau cover instead of rear seats as it is a GTX+ with an EcoTec instead of a VW engine.

Doesn't look like the 95 isn't long enough for a front-ish mounted SBC with a decent amount of legroom.

 

[Dethmachinefab]

I think you ought to just cut the vin out and start from scratch if not using the vw driveline.

 

[rockmup]

To give some visual reference, the 80" (right) is your standard Manx-clone size chassis (our Nostalgia body). The 95.5" (left) is our longer "four seat" size chassis (our Genesis body).

The one on the left has a tonneau cover instead of rear seats as it is a GTX+ with an EcoTec instead of a VW engine.

Those are fawesome.

The website on the other hand sucks.

 

[PAToyota]

Doesn't look like the 95 isn't long enough for a front-ish mounted SBC with a decent amount of legroom.

There is no way you'd get any engine in front of the occupants in one of these buggies. There is a little more than a foot of clearance between the pedals and the front beam. The additional length is behind the seats for the 95.5" chassis.

I'd post a picture of the Genesis chassis, but they used the same picture for all three chassis on the sucky website...

Those are fawesome.

The website on the other hand sucks.

They put together some decent vehicles.

The website absolutely positively unequivocally sucks.

 

[plym49.2]

I think you ought to just cut the vin out and start from scratch if not using the vw driveline.

Yup, a great deal of the floor pan will be cut out. Will likely leave some at the rear where it has a good shape. But I plan to keep the VW front end as it seems well mounted and it's already done.

 

[plym49.2]

There is no way you'd get any engine in front of the occupants in one of these buggies. There is a little more than a foot of clearance between the pedals and the front beam. The additional length is behind the seats for the 95.5" chassis.

I'd post a picture of the Genesis chassis, but they used the same picture for all three chassis on the sucky website...



They put together some decent vehicles.

The website absolutely positively unequivocally sucks.

One of my next steps will be to mock up the engine and entire driveline on jack stands and wooden cribs. Then I can place the frame alongside to see what is up. I think the best place to stretch the frame will be in the center.

 

[SHARPMACHINE]

This quickly escalated...

Went from add cheap motor and make a beater, to......... rebuild whole thing change up the drivetrain and part it out before it is done... lol Been there a few times.

 

[plym49.2]

This quickly escalated...

Went from add cheap motor and make a beater, to......... rebuild whole thing change up the drivetrain and part it out before it is done... lol Been there a few times.

Oddly, nothing like this has ever happened before.

 

[grumpy356]

One of my next steps will be to mock up the engine and entire driveline on jack stands and wooden cribs. Then I can place the frame alongside to see what is up. I think the best place to stretch the frame will be in the center.

I did a pan one time.
Ran box tubing in the frame rail. (Didn’t have a fixture table so I welded a jig to my fab table and heated it up to bend that angle).And welded the nuts in the tube.
Replaced the sheet metal down the tunnel & the front end tin with plate instead of the sheet metal.

I was cutting it down 10” but it came out great

This was 1990, so no pics.

 

[plym49.2]

Progress is slow as my Mild Square Body build has priority. But I have taken measurements - some posted below - as I'd like y'all's advice on how best to lengthen and reinforce what I've got.

I am figuring to cut out the floor pans, leaving the tunnel. The tunnel will eventually get cut/sshortened as well but I want to preserve the shape at the rear of the tunnel as I think it will come in habdy. Once I know where the trans and seats will end up I can chop the tunnel down more.

Obviously the transaxle and trailing arms will go, but does the crosstube that the rear torsion bars sit in stay? I've never had one of those apart.

I am concerned by the rotten side rails the OPO added as well as the rust perforation in the structural part of the pan up behind the front end. The side rails maybe just slide inside new stock as part of lengthening - but what about the front?

First chance I get I am going out there with a death wheel to cut away everything clearly not needed or in the wrong place.

Let me know if you need different views.

 

[PAToyota]

Honestly, I'd be ditching the pan altogether and building a frame from square/rectangular tube steel - or round if you really prefer. What I'm seeing of your pan does not look like it providing much structure - if any.

The strength in a stock setup is the tunnel and the heater channels. Yours already has the heater channels replaced with square tube. You're doing the suspension with the Jag rear end, so no need for the torsion. And if you're serious about the SBC, I'd want something a lot more supportive than a decades old rusted to pieces VW pan that's been cobbled and hacked.

 

[plym49.2]

Honestly, I'd be ditching the pan altogether and building a frame from square/rectangular tube steel - or round if you really prefer. What I'm seeing of your pan does not look like it providing much structure - if any.

The strength in a stock setup is the tunnel and the heater channels. Yours already has the heater channels replaced with square tube. You're doing the suspension with the Jag rear end, so no need for the torsion. And if you're serious about the SBC, I'd want something a lot more supportive than a decades old rusted to pieces VW pan that's been cobbled and hacked.

We are pretty much on the same page. Let me add some details about what I've been thinking.

- The existing side rails would be used inside square or rectangular tube just to assist when I lengthen the frame.

- Gonna need a new 'subframe' front to rear for the motor and trans mounts and that will tie into a rear flat plate side-to-side that will be used to mount the IRS (it mounts from the top with four safety-wired bolts - view above is of the bottom).

- Prolly can salvage the rear of the tunnel - in the area where the OPO flame-cut slots for the e-brake cables - but just for the shape, not for strenght. That also save me the VIN.

- All the floor sheet metal will be gone. I might use this 1/8" plate that we have lots sitting in the weeds at the range.

- From the belt line up is stuff I can leverage. It's structurally sound.

- I want a flat 'roof' so the McDonald's arches will go. Might repurpose them in front of the font axle as push/brush guard.

- I am concerned about the rust in the front stock 'frame rails' as I want to preserve that section of the pan that the IFS mounts to.

- Agree that I will not need the rear torsion - but (and I have never had one of these apart), can I reuse the longitudinal tube that the rear torsion bars sit in as a crossmember? Again, not gonna depend on that for overall strength, but for convenience.

- I don't care if this thing ends up weighing more than it should as long as I don't get things beyond what the VW front end can handle.

- If I can't use the VW front end then it will be - something. Wish I had the IFS that came out of the same Jag as they are modular and rack and pinion and so on. Mustang II? Cliche' and fugly as shit. Model A beam axle? Now that would be taking this thing in an entirely new direction.

As far as progress, finally got the Jag IRS out of the truck. No pix.

 

[PAToyota]

That also save me the VIN.

Ok, that's about the only reason I see to keep any of the existing rather than starting from scratch.

can I reuse the longitudinal tube that the rear torsion bars sit in as a crossmember?

No reason not to, I guess. We cut out and trim the torsions, plate them, send them out for sandblasting, and use them as a starting point for our chassis.

If I can't use the VW front end then it will be - something.

We routinely put together partial assemblies for people who are doing something different. You could ask for just the front end assembly from our chassis and then weld it onto the rest of your chassis. That would be a starting point with everything aligned. A VW front beam would bolt right up to it. Empi sells new front beams as well. They come from Brazil. They come in link pin and ball joint, narrowed, lowered, etc. You sort of have to scroll through things, though, since they don't have them all together. Here is a link for a search on "beam" on Empi's site:

Products - EMPI

empius.com

 

[plym49.2]

Ok, that's about the only reason I see to keep any of the existing rather than starting from scratch.



No reason not to, I guess. We cut out and trim the torsions, plate them, send them out for sandblasting, and use them as a starting point for our chassis.

We routinely put together partial assemblies for people who are doing something different. You could ask for just the front end assembly from our chassis and then weld it onto the rest of your chassis. That would be a starting point with everything aligned. A VW front beam would bolt right up to it. Empi sells new front beams as well. They come from Brazil. They come in link pin and ball joint, narrowed, lowered, etc. You sort of have to scroll through things, though, since they don't have them all together. Here is a link for a search on "beam" on Empi's site:

Products - EMPI

empius.com

That's good information, thanks. I guess the core of my question is if this '62 front end is strong enough (spindles, etc.) to carry the weight of something that will basically be a very weird T bucket.

 

[PAToyota]

A VW front beam isn't generally noted first for its strength. The cars it came stock in were all rear engine, so you didn't have a bunch of weight on the front beam, although dune buggies and rails don't have the weight of sheetmetal. Aftermarket uses typically maintain the rear engine format and isn't putting a lot of weight on the front end, but they do stand up to a fair amount of abuse in sandrails and woods buggies.

I guess a lot of it comes down to how much weight you're talking and what you plan to do with it. Having a SBC sitting up front and blasting through Baja is likely to wear things out.

 

[plym49.2]

A VW front beam isn't generally noted first for its strength. The cars it came stock in were all rear engine, so you didn't have a bunch of weight on the front beam, although dune buggies and rails don't have the weight of sheetmetal. Aftermarket uses typically maintain the rear engine format and isn't putting a lot of weight on the front end, but they do stand up to a fair amount of abuse in sandrails and woods buggies.

I guess a lot of it comes down to how much weight you're talking and what you plan to do with it. Having a SBC sitting up front and blasting through Baja is likely to wear things out.

This is going to be a street toy and I will be setting the motor back as far as I can. Weight-wise, will be a 350 SBC with an iron manifold. No plans for off-road thrashing.

 

[PAToyota]

You'll likely be fine with the VW beam for that kind of use.

 

[plym49.2]

You'll likely be fine with the VW beam for that kind of use.

Thank you! That is great to hear!