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Can any of you libertarian types explain to me like I am 5/4 retard

Animalmother said:
I stand by that statement. I am for small gov and liberty.

But you are admitting to my primary complaint this whole time. My respect for others liberty has to be a two way street. If maintaining that belief means I must surrender my own liberty well then now its gonna be a fight and I am willing to use political power to stop you. You are merely pointing out you wont
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The political power you’re willing to use will be used against you when your team is no longer in control.
 
MuntCuffin said:
I absolutely 100% agree. As long as the only victim to their bad decisions is isolated to the person making those bad decisions.

Your bad decisions start to harm others? Ecspecially those that are most incapable of defending themselves from bad ideas? We got a problem.
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Where I get hung up on it is that you're deciding what is best for that child you've never seen or interacted with in any way. To give that power to someone with no stake in the situation is just so very wrong to me.

I guess I can understand it, children are a blank slate and you can program them to any end, so yes in a way there are absolutely no trans children in 'the world as a perfect simulation where all variables are controlled'
but the world isn't perfect, and some kids do get raped by uncle badtouch then turn into something broken by their experience

I can't see a situation where "gender affirming" bullshit is properly applicable to (young) children AT ALL
But that gets entirely overridden by the simple fact that it is not my decision to make, and it is not a decision for society to make.

Same reason the death penalty doesn't sit right with me. Society should not be killing individuals. Individuals do sometimes need to kill individuals, but to offload that responsibility to an uncaring collective disgusts me. Life changing decisions are the most personal things I can think of, to make them impersonal is just wrong.
 
MuntCuffin said:
Highest rates of drug abuse, highest rates of fatherless homes, highest rates of depression and mental illness.

Sure, society is functioning. Much like someone in hospice care functions.

Doesn't mean it isn't diseased and on its way to death.

That being said, I don't think government can fix society. But damn, can they make it worse.
Ecspecially when they forsake their founding ideals and get involved in "pop culture" by pushing shit through media and censoring opposing views.
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Exactly.

All I see government doing is excusing failure and therefore propping up failed thought and action through this disconnect of responsibility.
 
[486] said:
I just don't see this first bit, I see society functioning despite the attempts of the few to control the many.

This appears to me as an example of problems caused by those who force the idea that such things are acceptable upon society.
"it's okay to be mediocre and succumb to urges, it's okay to be a fat slob, drink the atrazine, eat the soy and become effeminate"

Provide the military as a career path for those who wish to act out their individualistic impulses, reform that animalistic independence into patriotism and such before it can manifest as distrust of those in charge...


well yes, quite clearly

But to take the ability to make bad choices away from people doesn't make them good, it simply makes them hide their deficiencies.
That old saying about 'freedom is the ability to make bad choices'
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Yep. Everyone has the freedom to do whatever they like, all over the planet, however "liberty" to do so depends entirely on the consequences of said "action-ed freedom".
 
Animalmother said:
Its being used against me now, sooooo…. whats your solution?
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to take the avenues of control that are being constructed and oppose their further construction
rather than trying to 'take control of them' and continue to build them up in the misguided hope that they'll only be used in a way I'd agree with
 
[486] said:
or some blue hair
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Fun little aside, The term "blue hair" sure has undergone a very abrupt transition into almost the exact opposite kind of person than the way I understood it as a kid.

My mind immediately went "why would Granny Gertrude on the slots at the casino be prattling on about healthcare for the chillun?" :laughing:
 
subybaja said:
Libertarianism is, like most ideologies, on a spectrum of compromise between anarchy and the Borg.

As you say, anarchy restricts freedom to only that which you have the power to enforce. You are only as free as your strength.

Libertarians try to hit the sweet spot between the two curves, where individual freedom is maximized.

There are also a LOT of different definitions. Since it's a fringe belief system, it's not as well integrated into society as some- it doesn't have a pat set of beliefs like some of the bigger political teams.
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So, there's only 3 pigeon holes?


Say someone asks me a set of questions on issues:

  • question A: I answer, result: you're a liberal!
  • question B: I answer, result: you're a conservative
  • question C: I answer, result: you're a socialist
  • question D: I answer, result: you're a libertarian
  • question E: I answer, result: you're a shill for <X>

And so it goes.

It's never cut and dried. The "spectrum" is not 2 dimensional, but at least 3 or even 4, depending on your life experiences, biases (ingrained, taught, or otherwise), cognitive acuity, intelligence, Maslow's ladder, etc, etc.
 
willis_racing said:
Fun little aside, The term "blue hair" sure has undergone a very abrupt transition into almost the exact opposite kind of person than the way I understood it as a kid.

My mind immediately went "why would Granny Gertrude on the slots at the casino be prattling on about healthcare for the chillun?" :laughing:
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inorite, used to be the old lady sneering at you for acting out

but that's language for you, changes with society
 
Icono said:
Yep. Everyone has the freedom to do whatever they like, all over the planet, however "liberty" to do so depends entirely on the consequences of said "action-ed freedom".
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The thing about it to my mind is that consequences gotta be natural.

Fuck up raising your kids and they kill themselves or stick you in an old folks home? Natural consequence.
Get thrown in jail for not upholding society's current idea of morality while raising your children? Very unnatural.
 
Icono said:
So, there's only 3 pigeon holes?


Say someone asks me a set of questions on issues:

  • question A: I answer, result: you're a liberal!
  • question B: I answer, result: you're a conservative
  • question C: I answer, result: you're a socialist
  • question D: I answer, result: you're a libertarian
  • question E: I answer, result: you're a shill for <X>

And so it goes.

It's never cut and dried. The "spectrum" is not 2 dimensional, but at least 3 or even 4, depending on your life experiences, biases (ingrained, taught, or otherwise), cognitive acuity, intelligence, Maslow's ladder, etc, etc.
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1689709589121.jpeg


Reread the thread title.
 
[486] said:
The thing about it to my mind is that consequences gotta be natural.

Fuck up raising your kids and they kill themselves or stick you in an old folks home? Natural consequence.
Get thrown in jail for not upholding society's current idea of morality while raising your children? Very unnatural.
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Totally agree. Good synopsis.
 
in the book Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance, the author tries to approach the challenge in the question.

Because everything is flawed, he does not succeed entirely, but in the book he talks about 'classic' vs 'romantic' quality. Classic is like a straight line, it is perfect IN YOUR HEAD, but when you try to create it (romantic quality) it comes out as less than perfect, in fact, flawed to the degree of really kind of ruining the 'classic quality' idea.

This holds true with all concepts and ideas. In our minds they live in a perfect state, but when realized, they are horribly flawed.

In a perfect society, people would not intersect with each other in a manner that would impede anyone (maybe, but see, by putting it into words, I wrecked it)

There are no actual libertarians. There are just flawed individuals who cannot act perfectly on their beliefs and who cannot adequately even explain their beliefs.
 
subybaja said:
I think this is a stinky glue-trap. Remember the 'Atheists argue god here' thread?
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The good part is the autists who are true hardcore libertarian nerds don't get as emotionally fired up as religious people. Just endless wall-o-texts on philosophy and the writings of people in think tanks.
 
Icono said:
That was very damning.

I think most peeps were looking around at each other and wondering who was gonna say something first, and were surprised nobody did, and then shut down. LOTS went into huge depression over this.

I think it'll be different next time.
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100% disagree about next time. Those that believed in the cause will wear a shit filled diaper on their head when told to do so. Maybe 15% will change their tune. Some many Republicans I talked to said bucking the system was worth their job. They are too attached to their comfort and lifestyle to dare challenge the powers that be.
 
subybaja said:
I think this applies to humans as a whole, and every system we make up.
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absolutely agree. and it is why ideologues get so frustrated when held to their words because words are so woefully inadequate.

I know that there are ill and awful people in the world, but discounting them, I think most people are kind of after the same things, but once it gets turned into language and law it goes horribly sideways... I still believe we all have way more in common than we disagree on.
 
[486] said:
Where I get hung up on it is that you're deciding what is best for that child you've never seen or interacted with in any way. To give that power to someone with no stake in the situation is just so very wrong to me.
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In what cases is permanent bodily mutilation and mindfucking contrary to objective reality good for a child?
 
[486] said:
The thing about it to my mind is that consequences gotta be natural.

Fuck up raising your kids and they kill themselves or stick you in an old folks home? Natural consequence.
Get thrown in jail for not upholding society's current idea of morality while raising your children? Very unnatural.
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I can agree with that....but man, culture is going to and already has taken a pounding on the way to righting itself. Many of the adults pushing this wokeist tripe are just as much a victim of mindfucking as the kids.

Imagine a therapist saying to you "if you don't let your 10 year old son chop of his dick and proclaim himself a girl, he'll kill himself."

However, the "professionals" and "experts" pushing this shit and profiteering off the mutilation of kids....better a millstone hung around their necks and dropped into the depths of the sea.
 
MuntCuffin said:
Imagine a therapist saying to you "if you don't let your 10 year old son chop of his dick and proclaim himself a girl, he'll kill himself."
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Also saying if you dont let your son chop off his dick the state will come and take him away and throw your ass in prison for child abuse.
 
MuntCuffin said:
In what cases is permanent bodily mutilation and mindfucking contrary to objective reality good for a child?
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I'm not saying that is good for anyone.
I'm saying that while centralized power can be used for positive things in an ideal world, using it at all opens the door to the horrors which are obvious.
Everything is a trade off and while it may be turning a blind eye to a few parents effectively killing their own children (is that at all prevented by our current system?), it prevents the growth of a cancer that destroys societies (centralized power over the individual)
 
Animalmother said:
Also saying if you dont let your son chop off his dick the state will come and take him away and throw your ass in prison for child abuse.
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Notice that you're making my argument for me?

Central collective power will be used against the individual you agree with just as surely as you want it to be used against the individual you don't agree with.
 
MuntCuffin said:
Many of the adults pushing this wokeist tripe are just as much a victim of mindfucking as the kids.
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yup, and those around them pay the price

but that's just natural selection forces at work
someone who only hangs out with meek eunichs will find themselves becoming just the same, which isn't to be taken as a "cut these people out of your life" which is so popular lately

Just continue being generally successful and happy with yourself. An angry whiner is always sick of being a pathetic loser, at some point they might finally have the brainwave look to those around them succeeding as something to emulate rather than vilify.
 
Animalmother said:
Because the collective gonna collective the coculective.
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Not quoting this for any emotional reason.

If there's only one thing to take from all the shit I say I'd like it to be people taking the time to look up the general idea of "collectivism" in a political context.

Contrast it to "individualism" again in a political context. Think about issues in a lens of the collective and the individual, while realizing that 'the collective' doesn't and cannot exist in humanity. I may sound like a broken record at times, but that's just because of how difficult it was to get that nugget outta all the intentionally difficult to understand word soup that politics is.

Right and left is meaningless, all effective parties are authoritarian in leaning and they get the power to enact that authoritarian control over the individual by appealing to collectivist ideals which they can not deliver on because humanity is a gaggle of individuals too loosely associated to ever be considered 'a collective' in any way that would be necessary.
 
[486] said:
I'm not saying that is good for anyone.
I'm saying that while centralized power can be used for positive things in an ideal world, using it at all opens the door to the horrors which are obvious.
Everything is a trade off and while it may be turning a blind eye to a few parents effectively killing their own children (is that at all prevented by our current system?), it prevents the growth of a cancer that destroys societies (centralized power over the individual)
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I agree with your point on centralized power.

What is your opinion in the legislation of abortion (not abortion itself) where it has been turned over to the states? Still too centralized?

I never proposed the fed doing anything with the tranny issue other than getting the fuck out of the issue. Its a cultural and societal issue, not a political or governmental one. Has fuck all to do with enforcing borders or maintaining a military...which they are failing at.
 
[486] said:
to take the avenues of control that are being constructed and oppose their further construction
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Lets get specific.

What exactly are you referring to when you say “ the avenues of control that are being constructed” What avenues of control?

Oppose how?

As a citizen, I can think of but a few ways I can oppose my government.

Vote

Protest. Protesting could be writing your officials, going to a assembly/ralley.

Run for office


Since this is your offered solution, what are you personally doing that is preventing the avenues of control from being constructed? Can you point to anyone or any group that is carrying this out and how they are doing it?






[486] said:
rather than trying to 'take control of them' and continue to build them up in the misguided hope that they'll only be used in a way I'd agree with
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Again get very specific of what you mean when you are describing this behavior people are currently engaging in and how they are doing it.


How are people trying to take control of them? …….voting?












 
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