Can any of you libertarian types explain to me like I am 5/4 retard

[Animalmother]

This has been beat to death on several threads. So I want to beat it some more.


1. Is it not hypocritical to say, for liberty and freedom, I am against forcing my beliefs or morals on others but Im okay with certain laws? Because every law on the book is a set of beliefs or morals thats forced on another. You are in fact, okay forcing your beliefs and morals on others, otherwise you are advocating for anarchy.


2. For those advocating for anarchy, how does liberty and freedom exist in the certain chaos resulting from people doing as they please consequence free?

Laws restrict freedom but they also serve to order society and protect rights. Without order you cant enjoy your freedom. Isnt a balance required?

 

[subybaja]

Libertarianism is, like most ideologies, on a spectrum of compromise between anarchy and the Borg.

As you say, anarchy restricts freedom to only that which you have the power to enforce. You are only as free as your strength.

Libertarians try to hit the sweet spot between the two curves, where individual freedom is maximized.

There are also a LOT of different definitions. Since it's a fringe belief system, it's not as well integrated into society as some- it doesn't have a pat set of beliefs like some of the bigger political teams.

 

[swtfman]

2. For those advocating for anarchy, how does liberty and freedom exist in the certain chaos resulting from people doing as they please consequence free?

I'm not advocating anarchy, but in an anarchist environment actions are not consequence free; the consequences just aren't delivered by the government.

 

[Icono]

Liberty and freedom aren't the same thing.

They're both largely interpreted on cognition which is hugely personal.

You sure you want to open this can of worms? It's been attempted on IBB previously to deaf ears.

 

[Animalmother]

Liberty and freedom aren't the same thing.

They're both largely interpreted on cognition which is hugely personal.

You sure you want to open this can of worms? It's been attempted on IBB previously to deaf ears.

Hmmm. Not sure I follow that but open them cans up.

 

[Wheelin66bronco]

Look up the difference between natural law and human law. Lots of good reading.
Read Larkin Rose Dangerous Superstition book.
To be be free is to not be ruled over. We are not free. If we followed natural law, we'd be just fine.

 

[Poke]

Do you believe that people are generally good and maliciousness is largely from stupidity/miscommunication/inaccurate perception and not ill intent?

Or do you believe that people are generally bad and maliciousness is what you get from people because that’s how we largely are?

 

[east_beast]

Maximum individual liberty is the paramount goal. If it isn't causing someone else's liberties to be directly negatively effected there shouldn't be laws against it. The basis of social libertarianism is pretty much that simple.

Something hurting you in the feels and triggering you is your problem. It isn't grounds for making laws against something.

 

[Icono]

Do you believe that people are generally good and maliciousness is largely from stupidity/miscommunication/inaccurate perception and not ill intent?

Or do you believe that people are generally bad and maliciousness is what you get from people because that’s how we largely are?

People are good and evil, both.

The thing is the degree per individual.

And what motivates them.

So many freaking books and knowledge on this out there.

 

[Slander]

Start listening: Podcasts | Tom Woods

As subybaja said, there's a wide range of libertarian ideology out there.

Anarchy is not chaos, you participate in anarchist acts evrey day. A good example being selling something on the IBB. That's a transaction with zero government interaction, between two people with a set agreement. If the deal goes south, you sort it out, up to and including the person being labelled as a bad seller on here and kicked out of the community we all voluntarily agree to be a part of. Another good example is going on a camping trip with friends, people make agreements, bring certain skills to the able, someone brings beer, another brings food, all without intervention. It sounds simplistic and retarded but it's an easy way to frame up Anarchy for people. Anarchy isn't running around throwing bricks through windows and torching buildings, that's the opposite of anarchy, anarchy is working out deals and agreements between people on their own terms without state intervention.

If your serious about learning about this stuff, listen to the Tom woods show I posted up, dude has done a podcast on just about evrey topic you can think of relating to libertarianism, is an anarchist and looks like your insurance agent.

 

[Icono]

Start listening: Podcasts | Tom Woods

As subybaja said, there's a wide range of libertarian ideology out there.

Anarchy is not chaos, you participate in anarchist acts evrey day. A good example being selling something on the IBB. That's a transaction with zero government interaction, between two people with a set agreement. If the deal goes south, you sort it out, up to and including the person being labelled as a bad seller on here and kicked out of the community we all voluntarily agree to be a part of. Another good example is going on a camping trip with friends, people make agreements, bring certain skills to the able, someone brings beer, another brings food, all without intervention. It sounds simplistic and retarded but it's an easy way to frame up Anarchy for people. Anarchy isn't running around throwing bricks through windows and torching buildings, that's the opposite of anarchy.

If your serious about learning about this stuff, listen to the Tom woods show I posted up, dude has done a podcast on just about evrey topic you can think of relating to libertarianism, is an anarchist and looks like your insurance agent.

I have to ask, what's with all this ideology that been going around? Are people devolving into ideologues?


Not directed at you Slander, but holy fuck people lately seem to think they have to put themselves in some pigeon hole and defend it.


WTF, over.

 

[Slander]

I have to ask, what's with all this ideology that been going around? Are people devolving into ideologues?


Not directed at you Slander, but holy fuck people lately seem to think they have to put themselves in some pigeon hole and defend it.


WTF, over.

We are witnessing an empire collapse in real time, people are doing what people do and trying to make sense of the chaos. At least that's my theory.

 

[JR4X]

I’m 5/4 retard so this going to go nowhere between me and you.

I don’t want to force my beliefs on you. I want to stop you from forcing your beliefs on someone else. And stop anyone else from forcing their beliefs on you. I guess that is defacto forcing my beliefs on both parties.

1. Is it not hypocritical to say, for liberty and freedom, I am against forcing my beliefs or morals on others but Im okay with certain laws? Because every law on the book is a set of beliefs or morals thats forced on another. You are in fact, okay forcing your beliefs and morals on others, otherwise you are advocating for anarchy.

No, that’s not how it works. Hypocritical yes but forcing their beliefs on you. No.

2. For those advocating for anarchy, how does liberty and freedom exist in the certain chaos resulting from people doing as they please consequence free?

I’m not an anarchist, my main goal would be to minimize chaos.

Laws restrict freedom but they also serve to order society and protect rights. Without order you cant enjoy your freedom. Isnt a balance required?

The TL;DR part. You can probably find a hundred ways where what I think I want doesn’t work in reality. Speaking of being a hypocrite, are you introspective enough to see some of the problematic contradictions in your own dogma? Or are you so authoritarian that there are no holes in your beliefs, therefore your beliefs need to be forced on everyone?

This feels like dejavu , Flecker, the last person to get this worked up about the same subject. Had triggered meltdown after meltdown after meltdown till he nuked himself. Is that where this is headed?

 

[Icono]

We are witnessing an empire collapse in real time, people are doing what people do and trying to make sense of the chaos. At least that's my theory.

It's what I'm seeing too. You're not alone, and many others see it. Not sure where it's going.






Might be a salvation that most Gen Z have Gen X parents. Long shot on that one. I've been seeing it.

 

[SoylentGreen]

If your serious about learning about this stuff, listen to the Tom woods show I posted up, dude has done a podcast on just about evrey topic you can think of relating to libertarianism, is an anarchist and looks like your insurance agenagent.

I thought Tom Woods made drive shafts.


And my insurance agent is a beautiful blond lady.

 

[Thefishguy77]

I have to ask, what's with all this ideology that been going around? Are people devolving into ideologues?


Not directed at you Slander, but holy fuck people lately seem to think they have to put themselves in some pigeon hole and defend it.


WTF, over.

WAG. When the government tries to push you in to one pigeon hole people push back. Like a pendulum the bigger the swing one direction the bigger the swing in the opposite direction. Everyone is motivated by different events. Some events motivate just a few and some events motivate masses.

Take Covid. The government(s) legitimately tried to lock people in their homes for a designated period of time. I say tried because the success of said attempt varied state to state and country to country. You now have people who love the government and tried to help them, people who are indifferent to the government and some people who hate the government for their attempts. The degree of this love or hate and the abilities of said people dictates the swing of the pendulum.

In America libertarian is becoming more popular, IMO, because of 4 main reasons. In order:
1: BLM/Antifa/OWS bullshit. People in more liberal areas got to experience the local and federal government’s allowing forma of marxism to takeover. From shutting down businesses to stopping government aid and services from entering areas. Aka the Government left thw people who worshipped them on their own and without legal recourse. The government showed itself to be worthless and not in service to the tax payers. 2:Covid authoritarian responses from the federal government and a lot of state governments with the responses being based on fear and not fact. 3:More light being shed on the Government under Trump openly lying about the “evidence” they had against him and the wasteful spending of tax dollars vs doing their jobs. 4:Probably the one thats pushed so many to want to swing the pendulum the other way, because its current, is the Government treating the Ukraine better than its own country in most regards. People are seeing what’s happening to the economy from covid. What’s happening to our money from over spending, massively accelerated by Ukraine. And how the Government is a separate club that the rules dont apply to.

Libertarianism is appealing in America because our founding documents essentially set us up for a limited federal government with the state having the majority of power to govern themselves in regards to the will of the people.

Just my opinion and worth what you paid for it.

 

[[486]]

didn't read thread
most anarchists worth a shit are extremely conservative in their politics in comparison to your mental image of them

Not "Conservative™" but "conservative".
To use an allegory, you don't go around filling in old dusty and dry ditches on a property you just bought, someone spent a lot of effort digging those ditches and wouldn't have done so without very good reason. Fill them all in and you'll figure out that the entire area was a swamp before those ditches were installed.

The anarchist with sense does the same with government, cutting the tumors out in a slow and measured fashion lest the patient bleed out on the table.

 

[Rockbuggy84]

In before sdcj rides in on his high horse to tell everyone that their too dumb to understand.

 

[Icono]

didn't read thread

Yeah, as usual.

Useless pontificating.

GTFO

 

[Icono]

In before sdcj rides in on his high horse to tell everyone that their too dumb to understand.

He's too busy trying to find Boyd on FB.

 

[Animalmother]

No, that’s not how it works. Hypocritical yes but forcing their beliefs on you. No.

I dont see how laws are not a set of ideals or morals being forced onto another.

Speaking of being a hypocrite, are you introspective enough to see some of the problematic contradictions in your own dogma? Or are you so authoritarian that there are no holes in your beliefs, therefore your beliefs need to be forced on everyone?

Oh I know I could be completely wrong but I need specific problematic contradictions to understand what you are talking about.

This feels like dejavu , Flecker, the last person to get this worked up about the same subject. Had triggered meltdown after meltdown after meltdown till he nuked himself. Is that where this is headed?

I thought feels were not justified for use as evidence for anything

No, the only thing you could say I get even close to worked up about is being called an authoritarian for supporting certain ideals onto others through laws, which is what all but the staunchest anarchists seem to be content on.

Someone adding the caveat, “ but only if the law doesent impact liberty” which all laws seem to do, doesnt makes it different or even make sense to me.


That and I am frustrated by the mindset of libertarians that seem to be set on political impotence in the name of liberty which leads to liberty being taken by others.

Transgenderism seemed to be a good example. The effects not apparent at first have become apparent and yet still no one wants to man up and tell someone that its fucking up society.

 

[[486]]

Yeah, as usual.

Useless pontificating.

GTFO

lol
OP asks question, I reply to it alone
you get buttmad

 

[east_beast]

I have to ask, what's with all this ideology that been going around? Are people devolving into ideologues?


Not directed at you Slander, but holy fuck people lately seem to think they have to put themselves in some pigeon hole and defend it.


WTF, over.

There is definitely an absolute obsession in modern society with trying to label people. It's just baffling to me to watch because when I was growing up we were really trying to get away from that as a society and IMO that was the right evolution. It's almost like they woke up and realized that wait... if these people actually stop hating each other they might start hating US.

 

[Animalmother]

There is definitely an absolute obsession in modern society with trying to label people. It's just baffling to me to watch because when I was growing up we were really trying to get away from that as a society and IMO that was the right evolution. It's almost like they woke up and realized that wait... if these people actually stop hating each other they might start hating US.

Hey….arent libertarians primarily the ones bitching over there not being enough labels to vote for?

 

[[486]]

That and I am frustrated by the mindset of libertarians that seem to be set on political impotence in the name of liberty which leads to liberty being taken by others.

Transgenderism seemed to be a good example. The effects not apparent at first have become apparent and yet still no one wants to man up and tell someone that its fucking up society.

the problems caused by trannies are a symptom of a system where people are being led by people unfit to lead, consequences for actions are disconnected from making those actions

the thing is; no man is fit to lead a group larger than (on the large end) an extended family

 

[ev13wt]

I have to ask, what's with all this ideology that been going around? Are people devolving into ideologues?


Not directed at you Slander, but holy fuck people lately seem to think they have to put themselves in some pigeon hole and defend it.


WTF, over.

1. The Propaganda Machine's Impact on Community and Identity: The propaganda machine subtly alters the way educational environments are structured, emphasizing pupils' role in a classroom over fostering a cohesive class community. This shift can diminish the sense of belonging and shared identity among students. Consequently, children seek out other groups outside the classroom, further fragmenting social interactions and diminishing a sense of community.
2. Hollywood's Influence on Identity Categorization: The media, particularly Hollywood, contributes to the categorization of individuals into distinct groups based on perceived identities like skater, punk, geek, jock, or others. This emphasis on identity-focused communities can foster a divisive atmosphere, as people tend to identify and associate primarily with their specific groups, leading to the "us versus them" mentality.
3. Toy Industry's Adaptation to the Propaganda Machine: The pervasive influence of the propaganda machine also extends to the toy industry. To maximize profits, toy makers, including industry giants like Lego, tend to construct narratives around playsets that involve an inherent conflict between good and evil. This constant portrayal of enemies and bad guys ingrains the idea of adversaries from an early age, potentially influencing social interactions.
4. The Struggle of Third Parties in the US Political System: The US political landscape presents considerable challenges for third-party candidates. The two-party system dominates, creating barriers to entry for alternative voices and perspectives. Ballot access requirements, limited media coverage, and fundraising disparities further marginalize third-party contenders, making it extremely difficult for them to gain a foothold in the political arena.
5. The Need for Political "Protection": The divisive atmosphere, perpetuated by identity-based categorizations and the portrayal of adversaries in various aspects of life, fosters a perceived need for "protection." This sense of protection often leads to the inclination to rally behind established parties, reinforcing the existing two-party system and making it harder for new perspectives to emerge.
6. Challenges in Organizing Large Groups: On a broader scale, the challenges of organizing large groups become apparent. While smaller communities can self-organize effectively, as the group size grows, communication problems, knowledge silos, and process inefficiencies arise. This reality makes ambitious endeavors, such as grand space exploration missions, exceptionally intricate to execute.

Conclusion: The multifaceted influence of the propaganda machine, the identity-centric portrayal of groups by Hollywood (a cog in the propaganda machine), and the challenges faced by third parties in the US political system all contribute to a society where division and "enemy" mentality become prevalent. The lack of viable alternatives and the rigid two-party structure reinforce this division, inhibiting the emergence of fresh perspectives. To foster a more inclusive and cooperative society, it is crucial to critically examine and address the impact of identity-driven categorization and consider reforms that enable the inclusion of diverse voices in the political process. Additionally, understanding the complexities of organizing large groups is essential for tackling ambitious projects and working towards a more united future.

The large group aspect is where I see the Libertarian system failing. It is the ultimate system for groups up to 50 people.

 

[Icono]

Transgenderism seemed to be a good example. The effects not apparent at first have become apparent and yet still no one wants to man up and tell someone that its fucking up society.

It's only "fucking up" who's weak minded and needs to be led from outside, because they have no internal fortitude, or character.

Nobody else. Give those people a nod, and walk on past.

Not that hard.

If you have kids, it's up to you to know what their day at school was like. We (as parents) sure as fuck did, even 15 years ago. It's sensible. My Mom asked me what went on in school, back in the 70s. Go figure.

None of this is new.

 

[[486]]

Hey….arent libertarians primarily the ones bitching over there not being enough labels to vote for?

Not enough labels or not enough underlying ideologies?

because we generally end up with a choice between several labels for the same collectivist ideals

 

[Animalmother]

the problems caused by trannies are a symptom of a system where people are being led by people unfit to lead, consequences for actions are disconnected from making those actions

the thing is; no man is fit to lead a group larger than (on the large end) an extended family

Dude. I get you are way smarter than me but I just dont get what you’re saying.

I mean our leaders are in theory not acting on their own accord, but representatives subject to the wants of the people.

 

[[486]]

Dude. I get you are way smarter than me but I just dont get what you’re saying.

can it, I'm the same retard that any man is, my terrible explanations are testament to that
I just ended up autistically fixated on the underlying framework of politics somewhat recently so I did a bunch of reading on it, that's all