Best steering box for custom builds?

[YotaAtieToo]

Going to be chopping the frame off my 81 Toyota, adding links, D60 ect. Thought this could be a good thread to compile various steering box specs as well.

Currently have a typical drilled and tapped Toyota IFS box. I like the size of them and the availability of different pitman arms. But never have been super impressed with the flow through them with hydro assist.

I had a fancy PSC built box for a YJ but I hated the size and mounting of it.

AgitatedPancake has touted the WJ box working well for him even with a fairly large assist cylinder. Delphi 600 Steering Box Tech (Jeep WJ)

It's very similar looking in size to the ifs box, but mounts inside the frame. I feel like that can make mounting an equal length panhard slightly easier.

Are there any disadvantages to an inside frame box that I'm missing?

I'm also aware of the JK box which is similar, but forward swing. In my experience, forward swing boxes get in the way of shocks and panhards.

How do you compare the speed of boxes with assist cylinders?

 

[Skinny]

Saginaw boxes equal endless pitman options so that's a bonus.

I have zero input on flow rated and piston sizing. I know you said you dislike forward swing. But I do think you eventually run into issue with a rear swing the further you push the front axle out.

You can only go so far without needing to extend the frame rails. It's like there is a fixed dimension on how much rail you need in front of the axle to support a rear swing box.

So when you link it and run large tires the whole goal is to increase approach angle which the forward swing box helps with. That may also unfortunately run directly into a coilovers mount.

I don't know 🤷

 

[Sean]

I agree. Forward swing is the way to go...unless you are cool with where your current axle is located and don't want/need to push it forward.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Saginaw boxes equal endless pitman options so that's a bonus.

Saginaw was like every gm and Chrysler vehicle forever?

I have zero input on flow rated and piston sizing. I know you said you dislike forward swing. But I do think you eventually run into issue with a rear swing the further you push the front axle out.

You can only go so far without needing to extend the frame rails. It's like there is a fixed dimension on how much rail you need in front of the axle to support a rear swing box.

So when you link it and run large tires the whole goal is to increase approach angle which the forward swing box helps with. That may also unfortunately run directly into a coilovers mount.

I don't know 🤷

Yes, but like I said, I'm chopping the frame and building new.

As far as approach angle, I don't see the box sticking out beyond 42s. There will still be a front radiator, winch, ect up there. At this point I don't see the box sticking out past any of this. If I'm wrong, I'll look into a front swing and moving shocks back I guess.

 

[Skinny]

Well yeah 42s solves a lot of problems

One thing is be paying attention too is using a midsize truck box that mounts in the frame is it shortens up your drag link and starts to occupy the same space as your pan hard.

Fullsize truck outside box gets it further out probably giving you some better packaging. I'm not sure there is this style box with a forward swing option.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Well yeah 42s solves a lot of problems

You know what they say, you can't loose....

One thing is be paying attention too is using a midsize truck box that mounts in the frame is it shortens up your drag link and starts to occupy the same space as your pan hard.

Fullsize truck outside box gets it further out probably giving you some better packaging. I'm not sure there is this style box with a forward swing option.

Not sure I follow you, how does moving the pitman arm ~2" in occupy the panhard space?

Typically when I see panhards on rigs with boxes out side the frame, you have to stick the mount way off the frame to get equal length. Having the box inside the frame just makes the mount closer to the frame.

Fwiw, this isn't my first time with links, although it has been a while and I have always done it with an existing box.

Also, I don't think the ifs box is bad, it worked great with a 1.75x6 cylinder and 38s. Just figured if I have a clean slate, why not upgrade if it's significant

 

[AgitatedPancake]

WJ boxes are good imo and the long sector shaft works in a good amount of builds, but I don't put them too high up on a pedestal as a miracle. Just a pretty durable option that packages well, like the JK box even though that gets a bad rap because of how insanely heavy 4 door JKs can get. But they share the basic architecture, and make for some pretty interesting options.

The WJ box is rear swing, mounted inside the frame rail, the JK is forward swing, inside the frame rail. So that takes care of both of those options. Now both the WJ and JK are available in RHD, and their boxes are mirrors of the LHD. So if you want the box mounted outside the frame rail, you can use a RHD WJ or JK box depending on if you want forward swing or rear swing.

Just like that you have all 4 options to choose from, forward or rear swing, inside or outside the rail.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

WJ boxes are good imo and the long sector shaft works in a good amount of builds, but I don't put them too high up on a pedestal as a miracle.

What else is better without being yuge?

Just a pretty durable option that packages well, like the JK box even though that gets a bad rap because of how insanely heavy 4 door JKs can get. But they share the basic architecture, and make for some pretty interesting options.

Imo, everything jk is stronger than people give it credit for due to that exact reason.

The WJ box is rear swing, mounted inside the frame rail, the JK is forward swing, inside the frame rail. So that takes care of both of those options. Now both the WJ and JK are available in RHD, and their boxes are mirrors of the LHD. So if you want the box mounted outside the frame rail, you can use a RHD WJ or JK box depending on if you want forward swing or rear swing.

Just like that you have all 4 options to choose from, forward or rear swing, inside or outside the rail.

Good point

It's hard not to go jk with how much support they have, not to mention if you broke one, it would probably be the easiest box to find. But I guess WJ is close behind it.

 

[JR4X]

Toyota guys always seem to be trying to solve a problem I can’t identify with

Typically when I see panhards on rigs with boxes out side the frame, you have to stick the mount way off the frame to get equal length.

uh… yeah that’s the whole point. IMO the only reason to do a short little panhard is because you reused the factory box location inside the frame. The longer and flatter the panhard is, the better. You just said D60 and Toyota. 27” wide frame, 70 inch wide wms. You will have over a foot of cavernous space between the inside of your wheel and the frame from which to mount stuff.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Toyota guys always seem to be trying to solve a problem I can’t identify with

I'd rather call myself a Suzuki guy who owns Toyotas for some reason.

But ya, Toyota guys make our own problems.

uh… yeah that’s the whole point. IMO the only reason to do a short little panhard is because you reused the factory box location inside the frame. The longer and flatter the panhard is, the better. You just said D60 and Toyota. 27” wide frame, 70 inch wide wms. You will have over a foot of cavernous space between the inside of your wheel and the frame from which to mount stuff.

I get what you're saying. I've just always worried about the strength of a panhard mount that's 6" off the outside of the frame, but I guess anything is possible if it's braced correctly.

Since I'm building the frame I can put the box in the same location as it would be if it were outside the frame.

Looks like the consensus is forward swing, and move shocks back out of the way?

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Make a pitman arm idler, mount outside the frame, forward or reverse and put any box wherever you want.

 

[JR4X]

I'd rather call myself a Suzuki guy who owns Toyotas for some reason.

But ya, Toyota guys make our own problems.



I get what you're saying. I've just always worried about the strength of a panhard mount that's 6" off the outside of the frame, but I guess anything is possible if it's braced correctly.

Since I'm building the frame I can put the box in the same location as it would be if it were outside the frame.

Looks like the consensus is forward swing, and move shocks back out of the way?

I think you have a vision in your head of an FJ65 steering box location and not anything else that didn’t have that (stupidest box placement of all time). I can’t even understand what you’re saying. Look at that picture I posted. Those are 37’s, with basically a RHD JK box, almost a 90° approach angle from the bumper to the tires. The pan hard is in between the steering box and 2 1/2” hydro bumps, then coilovers behind that. There is nothing in that setup competing for space something else needs to occupy. We have the shocks mounted off the back of the axle to get the lower eye below the bottom of the axle tube. If I wanted to poke the tops of the coilovers through the hood I could move the shocks to the top of the axle housing and still fit the coilovers right behind that hydro bump with no interference.

 

[Skinny]

Inside the frame rails gets tight on a truck with narrow frame rails and fullsize axles especially when ride height is low. Like a Dana 60 diff in general.

I'd say whatever makes packaging everything work stick with that. I personally would never build something using an odd all part like a RHD Jeep box. Hell FJ boxes aren't exactly hanging around in my neck of the woods.

I'd stick with whatever was made by the millions. I run Red Head boxes on all my trucks but that doesn't mean it couldn't puke far from home. I'd prefer to use something there is a chance exists in a parts store and is readily available without needing overnight shipping.

 

[fl0w3n]

I'd rather call myself a Suzuki guy who owns Toyotas for some reason.

Username checks out Zuk82

 

[wvracer821]

I'm using a 2011+ Superduty box. its pure beef, has a front facing pitman and my chevy lines hooked right up to it. but I'm also dealing with full size everything and have plenty of room. I have not driven it yet but it seems to turn 40s on concrete pretty well without hydro assist.

 

[JR4X]

Inside the frame rails gets tight on a truck with narrow frame rails and fullsize axles especially when ride height is low. Like a Dana 60 diff in general.

I'd say whatever makes packaging everything work stick with that. I personally would never build something using an odd all part like a RHD Jeep box. Hell FJ boxes aren't exactly hanging around in my neck of the woods.

I'd stick with whatever was made by the millions. I run Red Head boxes on all my trucks but that doesn't mean it couldn't puke far from home. I'd prefer to use something there is a chance exists in a parts store and is readily available without needing overnight shipping.

Steering boxes suck. They are expensive and they break. Don’t use a Dodge Ram steering box, not even on the truck they come on.


The most ubiquitous steering box of all time is the Saginaw box that came on CJ’s YJ’s TJ’s XJ’s Chevy cars trucks and vans, Chrysler stuff etc etc. Those are the Chevy small block or Ford 9” of steering boxes. Easy to work on, easy to find. Every upgrade imaginable. I hate that they mount inside the frame but when you’re talking millions. Those had a production run of like 40+ years and people are still making new castings to this day. My brother and I modify them all the time for our 4500 steering setups for other people. It’s not what we run for ourselves but the fast ratio guts in our outside the frame forward facing pitman arm box are from a racing box for Chevy cars.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I think you have a vision in your head of an FJ65 steering box location and not anything else that didn’t have that (stupidest box placement of all time). I can’t even understand what you’re saying. Look at that picture I posted. Those are 37’s, with basically a RHD JK box, almost a 90° approach angle from the bumper to the tires. The pan hard is in between the steering box and 2 1/2” hydro bumps, then coilovers behind that. There is nothing in that setup competing for space something else needs to occupy. We have the shocks mounted off the back of the axle to get the lower eye below the bottom of the axle tube. If I wanted to poke the tops of the coilovers through the hood I could move the shocks to the top of the axle housing and still fit the coilovers right behind that hydro bump with no interference.

I think you missread my last post. Your Pic definitely changed my mind. I guess I was just stuck on a thought from mocking up a forward swing box years ago.

The only thing I'm curious about is the frame side panhard mount. Does it not stick off very far? How do you get the axle side mount so close to the knuckle? Or is equal length panhard/drag link not as big of a deal as what I'm thinking?

 

[Lil'John]

I can dig up a picture... but my favorite PS box since forever is an IH Scout 2... had one an an FJ40, have one on an FJ55, another FJ55 is getting one, and another FJ40 is getting one. It is a Saginaw with long sector shaft that is forward swing. It mounts on the outside of the frame.

The downsides are:
1) Hard to find and you won't find a rebuilt unit in stock (I've got two on the shelf and I'm always looking)
2) Three bolts to mount it to the frame. With PS assist or non-huge tires, I don't see that being an issue.
3) Long sector shaft. Similar to above, with PS assist or non-huge tires, I don't see an issue.

 

[JR4X]

I think you missread my last post. Your Pic definitely changed my mind. I guess I was just stuck on a thought from mocking up a forward swing box years ago.

The only thing I'm curious about is the frame side panhard mount. Does it not stick off very far? How do you get the axle side mount so close to the knuckle? Or is equal length panhard/drag link not as big of a deal as what I'm thinking?

On the vehicle pictured the panhard and draglink are exactly the same length. On that car they are swappable. They are not just the same length but the same angle to the degree throughout the full range of axle motion. Having them the same length and same plane is crucial. I’ll get you some pictures later. Took you some pictures this morning but forgot to get the axle side.

 

[Slander]

I think you missread my last post. Your Pic definitely changed my mind. I guess I was just stuck on a thought from mocking up a forward swing box years ago.

The only thing I'm curious about is the frame side panhard mount. Does it not stick off very far? How do you get the axle side mount so close to the knuckle? Or is equal length panhard/drag link not as big of a deal as what I'm thinking?

I was going to post a diatribe of why forward swing boxes suck based on the shitty location I put mine (right above the axle), then saw JR's pic and realized I'm a dumb fuck for putting it where I did! I went back to rear swing since, but definitely won't write off forward swing again.

 

[posford]

Not as hardcore, but forward swing with panhard and plenty of clearance.

(ignore the ratchet strap of shame)

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I was going to post a diatribe of why forward swing boxes suck based on the shitty location I put mine (right above the axle), then saw JR's pic and realized I'm a dumb fuck for putting it where I did! I went back to rear swing since, but definitely won't write off forward swing again.

I'm guessing we had a similar situation (dumb leaf springs, on dumb Toyota)

I had the FJ80 box and ifs box right there and the FJ80 box would have made shock mounting much more difficult, where the ifs box just went right where it would have been stock.

Another question for Jr or whoever, how much front to back angle is acceptable on the drag link? My gut says I shouldn't really matter as long as it isn't ridiculous?

 

[Slander]

I'm guessing we had a similar situation (dumb leaf springs, on dumb Toyota)

I had the FJ80 box and ifs box right there and the FJ80 box would have made shock mounting much more difficult, where the ifs box just went right where it would have been stock.

Another question for Jr or whoever, how much front to back angle is acceptable on the drag link? My gut says I shouldn't really matter as long as it isn't ridiculous?

I had that big dumb Ford box Scottie had a hard on for. What a steaming pile of shit that box was and a major PITA to fit. Fucking thing would overheat on the way to the trail, on the interstate, even with a massive cooler.

 

[06h3]

I will join here. I can say they are decently stout. I have a 00-04 Nissan Xterra Steering box. I have never broken a box. I have had it on from 37s to 43s with and without hydro assist. No sector shaft issues or any really issues at all, outside of the frame mounting.

Steering ratio? No idea....
Upgrades for it? Probably not...I know redhead rebuilds them and does the precision machined ball bearings to fit the worm gear when they are worn out but that is about the extent of it.
rearward facing pitarm arm kinda sucks in my opnion but overall a decent box.

Probably an unpopular opininon but I feel the JK boxes are so overrated. I feel they suck. My brothers JK has shitty steering angle and it feels weak. I have felt it was weak since it was bone stock and new. Could it be a pump or other things? Possibly, I am just usually underwhelmed with the steering any time I drive a JK.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

What else is better without being yuge?

I honestly don't know, but always listening. The super duty box mentioned above is interesting, be curious how those might hold up the way we use them. IIRC they have a larger piston and sector shaft than anything else we're talking about, which would mean theoretically more powerful and more durable

Imo, everything jk is stronger than people give it credit for due to that exact reason.

No kidding right haha, their axles are good choices too, for something that weighs under 7klbs

Good point

It's hard not to go jk with how much support they have, not to mention if you broke one, it would probably be the easiest box to find. But I guess WJ is close behind it.

JKs definitely win in the plentiful category, especially because they were made for over a decade beyond the end of the WJ (2004 vs 2017). But WJ stuff is still pretty readily available.

I personally would never build something using an odd all part like a RHD Jeep box. Hell FJ boxes aren't exactly hanging around in my neck of the woods.

I'd stick with whatever was made by the millions.

I'm normally in complete agreement about rare parts. But these days as long as it's readily available online, I don't worry as much about being able to source a specific part locally. There seem to have been enough RHD WJs and JKs in the states as postal jeeps for there to be some decent parts availabilities. RHD JK and WJ boxes don't cost much more than LHD, right now on Summit you can get a Lares LHD for $352 or a Lares RHD for $442. So they're available, just might not be in your local junk yard.

2016 JEEP WRANGLER Lares Corporation 22050 Lares New Steering Gears | Summit Racing


I won't spend too much time saying the same thing, but I agree with everything JR4X is saying. Making the drag link and track bar as long as you can possibly make them (equal length, same plane) is the ultimate goal, and makes for the most desirable handling. Minimizes side to side swing of the axle, and minimizes bump steer/wheel feedback in all scenarios. Don't be afraid of hanging the frame side track bar mount beyond the outside of the rail, just give it a worthy bracket.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Probably an unpopular opininon but I feel the JK boxes are so overrated. I feel they suck. My brothers JK has shitty steering angle and it feels weak. I have felt it was weak since it was bone stock and new. Could it be a pump or other things? Possibly, I am just usually underwhelmed with the steering any time I drive a JK.

So AFAIK the piston size of the JK and WJ delphi 600 boxes are essentially the same as the size of sagniaw pistons from decades past, so I don't think power should be too different than most stuff except that large Super Duty box. I'm intrigued by the Xterra box, Might have to do a little hunting to learn more about it

 

[Sean]

I honestly don't know, but always listening. The super duty box mentioned above is interesting, be curious how those might hold up the way we use them. IIRC they have a larger piston and sector shaft than anything else we're talking about, which would mean theoretically more powerful and more durable

Planning to run a forward swing '07-10 SD box on my tow vehicle build....we'll see how it goes but being that it's a tow rig that sees pretty mild trail duty, it may not be a good test case. I'm now debating if I should do a SE assist or DE. I'm still leaning SE for what seems to be simplicity.

 

[Tydes]

I put a toyota IFS box on suburban and it drove and wheeled great on 42s. We used it because it sat outside the frame and allowed my drag link and panhard to be the same length. He had a psc p-pump and his ram was 1.75x8

More pictures:

https://www.motortrend.com/features/1708-1990-chevy-suburban-hardcore-wheeling-for-the-whole-family/

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I put a toyota IFS box on suburban and it drove and wheeled great on 42s.

More pictures:

https://www.motortrend.com/features/1708-1990-chevy-suburban-hardcore-wheeling-for-the-whole-family/

Interesting

So maybe the slow assist set ups I drove had other issues? Just seems like the ifs box was always the common denominator.

How would you even determine if a say jk box would be quicker than an IFS box with all other parts equal?

 

[fl0w3n]

Interesting

So maybe the slow assist set ups I drove had other issues? Just seems like the ifs box was always the common denominator.

How would you even determine if a say jk box would be quicker than an IFS box with all other parts equal?

Gearbox Ratio Feel Explained - Lee Power Steering

The ratio of your power steering gearbox will determine the reaction speed to your steering input. The steering valve is what gives you the feel of the road.

leepowersteering.com