Axle swaps besides Toyota/wag44?

[YotaAtieToo]

Not sure why this has been in my head lately. But I have been thinking about different axles I could swap into a Sami, but still stay pretty lightweight.

With the cost of old Toyota or waggy D44 axles getting more and more ridiculous, at the same time those axles are getting older and older. Dropping them in without a full rebuild is pretty unlikely at this point.

I feel like a retubed WJ or JK D30 would actually be a pretty decent axle for a light samurai. Everything but the ring gear size can be, or already is bigger than the old D44 or Toyota. 1350 axle sets a pretty cheap.

Obviously not for a full out crawler with water filled stickies, but I think most guys running 35-39s on trails would be fine. Basically the same guys running Toyota or d44 stuff.

For the rear, there is the Jk D44, Ford 8.8 or even the WJ aluminum D44.

My thought was if you could either find a free/super cheap stock axle set or a built set for a good price. That retubing the front to pass drop wouldn't be a big deal. I'd probably narrow them up a bit since 65" is pretty wide for a zuk. Which would be easy to make the rear offset in the process.

Curious if anyone else has seen or done this?

Hey, it's Tuesday

 

[Cowboy63b]

Tons or GTFO.....

 

[TRINDU]

Consider the solid axle rigs made this century... you're pretty much stuck with superduty or wrangler.

 

[woods]

Back when I was building my rig, those custom housings were getting pretty popular. Perhaps there's a second hand market for those by now?

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Back when I was building my rig, those custom housings were getting pretty popular. Perhaps there's a second hand market for those by now?

That's honestly the only way I would go these days, for anything bigger than 35s, the stock housings are useless. Too narrow, so add a bunch of spacers/ifs hubs/2" bs wheels or a combination and then your breaking steering studs and bending balls.

I did my Toyota axle swap on my first Sami in hs, got an entire 1st gen Toyota for free. The only parts I bought were high steer arms and hiem joints. I made the rear spring pads, I had a Toyota rear drive shaft already. The front I made a square with Toyota lower, Sami upper. Front springs are close enough width for high school standards axles had 4.37s so they weren't bad with 6.4s and 33-35s. Welded diffs obviously. They were actually pretty bomb proof with the 1.3 and that size tires. I did bend the front housing on a huge pot hole in the snow after my alt quit and I was driving without lights.

Now a days, who wants to pay $500+ for a probably already bent front axle and $200 for a 2nd gen 4runner rear axle that needs 5 hours of work to strip all the coil spring shit off? Then you still have a ~40 year old axle at that point.

Retubing a D30 sure sounds like a waste, but the ring gear isn't that much smaller than a Toyota and being HP and newer, it's probably stronger than a 4cyl Toyota 3rd. Or do what Wilson is planning and put the D30 c's on a rear D44 center.

30 spline inners, 1350 sized joints and 32 spline stubs are all as good or bigger than Toyota or waggy/gm D44

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Consider the solid axle rigs made this century... you're pretty much stuck with superduty or wrangler.

Exactly, the old stuff is still good if you have it(except D44) , but people want stupid money. You can't hardly find a GM D60 for less than $2000 in nor cal these days.

 

[Gwagensteve]

This isn't quite the same answer as you're looking for, but I'm grafting 60 series LandCruiser rear spindles onto my Track/kick housing, and I'm working on a 30 spline track/kick 10 bolt airlocker. It will retain my samurai front rotors and callipers. Total weight gain over my previous 26 spline full float setup will be <25lb. I"m dropping weight in my tire and wheel combo so the whole package will still end up lighter than what I have now, but with full float 30 spline shafts.

I'm sure LC60 rear axles are all gold plated unobtainium in the US, but there pretty common locally and every replacement part is available new.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

This isn't quite the same answer as you're looking for, but I'm grafting 60 series LandCruiser rear spindles onto my Track/kick housing, and I'm working on a 30 spline track/kick 10 bolt airlocker. It will retain my samurai front rotors and callipers. Total weight gain over my previous 26 spline full float setup will be <25lb. I"m dropping weight in my tire and wheel combo so the whole package will still end up lighter than what I have now, but with full float 30 spline shafts.

I'm sure LC60 rear axles are all gold plated unobtainium in the US, but there pretty common locally and every replacement part is available new.

60 series stuff is all semi float c-clip over here only the later 80 series is full float. If I were going to use Toyota spindles, it would be easier to just use front spindles.

Have you thought about 5x5.5 unit bearings? That would be the lightest full float setup? I thought about this actually.

I'm interested in the locker though, are you actually working with arb or doing custom shit? The kick diff has so much more potential than 26 spline, especially in the 99+. The axle shafts and outer bearings are all big and beefy, and at least 1.75" all the way to the diff, then neck down at the very end

 

[ParadisePWoffrd]

The biggest downside I see to using a dana 30, is the limitation to 5.13 gears. Might not be a big deal with a sami case, but it seems that most people end up wanting to go yota/d300 and will need the deeper axle gears.

I also have thought about this. Trying to find something that doesnt need a ton of $$ thrown at it to gain a benefit. I have yota axles sitting here, but throwing thousands at them to be usable doesnt seem to make much sense. If I am going to go custom, part of me thinks of doing 9" center, to get the deeper gears also. Could do d30, d44, d60, yota outers. Other than d60 outers, will be running custom shafts, or welding the diffs.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

The biggest downside I see to using a dana 30, is the limitation to 5.13 gears. Might not be a big deal with a sami case, but it seems that most people end up wanting to go yota/d300 and will need the deeper axle gears.

Toyota is really only good to 5.29s the difference between that and 5.13s is nothing. I'm actually worried about 4.88s with a Sami case being a little too low (with nod OD)

There is 5.71s available and also 5.89s for low pinion D44. But that's getting pretty weak. If you're ditching the Sami case, I'd guess you're going to want bigger axles anyway. Zuk engines really need 7.xx+ high range to be remotely happy.

I also have thought about this. Trying to find something that doesnt need a ton of $$ thrown at it to gain a benefit. I have yota axles sitting here, but throwing thousands at them to be usable doesnt seem to make much sense. If I am going to go custom, part of me thinks of doing 9" center, to get the deeper gears also. Could do d30, d44, d60, yota outers. Other than d60 outers, will be running custom shafts, or welding the diffs.

Like I said, if you have the yota stuff, they are are pretty good with a few upgrades. If you want to go all out right off the batt, hands down 60 or 9" is the way to go.

If you're trying to stay light, 9" center with JK outters would be pretty decent. Get rcv's with 31 spline inners. The bell is not quite D60 sized, but much bigger than a Toyota. Could even use junk yard 9" housing as a donor. Then maybe a van rear? ~7.50s being available is a good plus.

Or obviously ball joint D60 otters if you need the beef.

Another budget axle would be a late model E250 semi float axle with ball joint otters. You get 3.5x375 tubes, a smooth bottom, more clearance than a standard D60 and 5.86-7.17 gears.

 

[Tech Tim]

You can get the 8.4" Taco/Tundra rears pretty cheap. They are stronger than the 8" stuff and 5.29s and lockers are available. Dave Cole and Brian Ellinger ran them with stickies in their WeRock Mod class rock Crawler the year they took top spot.

Retube them with some D44 outers, early stuff, late model stuff, whatever works for you. Fabricated housing so easy to weld all over it and drop out 3rds, so easy to work on.

Another idea for the rear, is the late model Isuzu D44. 6 lug, disc brake and uses the bigger JK R&P. Jantz posted a bunch of stuff in a thread on the old site.

 

[Gwagensteve]

60 series stuff is all semi float c-clip over here only the later 80 series is full float. If I were going to use Toyota spindles, it would be easier to just use front spindles.

Have you thought about 5x5.5 unit bearings? That would be the lightest full float setup? I thought about this actually.

I'm interested in the locker though, are you actually working with arb or doing custom shit? The kick diff has so much more potential than 26 spline, especially in the 99+. The axle shafts and outer bearings are all big and beefy, and at least 1.75" all the way to the diff, then neck down at the very end

Ah yes, I forgot your landcruisers are light duty. I think even 80 series is semifloat for you unless the owner ordered lockers. For our market cruisers were all full float from sometime in the late 1960's until the IFS 100 series. Yes, I considered 5 on 5.5 unit bearings but there isn't an off the shelf local option, and I couldn't resolve a way of having matching splines at both the diff centre and the hub. Mismatched splines don't float my boat. I'd also need another adapter welded to the existing housing (I already have a tracker bearing pocket adapted to a samurai front spindle.)

Toyota pickup from spindles was a path I was super keen on but it creates more issues. The rotors mount behind the hub, meaning the hub is drilled/made in a way that makes changing the stud pattern hard. The beauty of the 60 series hub is it's a flat disk I can modify as required to suit my PCD and light weight slip-over samurai rotors and callipers.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Ah yes, I forgot your landcruisers are light duty. I think even 80 series is semifloat for you unless the owner ordered lockers. For our market cruisers were all full float from sometime in the late 1960's until the IFS 100 series. Yes, I considered 5 on 5.5 unit bearings but there isn't an off the shelf local option, and I couldn't resolve a way of having matching splines at both the diff centre and the hub. Mismatched splines don't float my boat. I'd also need another adapter welded to the existing housing (I already have a tracker bearing pocket adapted to a samurai front spindle.)

Toyota pickup from spindles was a path I was super keen on but it creates more issues. The rotors mount behind the hub, meaning the hub is drilled/made in a way that makes changing the stud pattern hard. The beauty of the 60 series hub is it's a flat disk I can modify as required to suit my PCD and light weight slip-over samurai rotors and callipers.

It wasn't lockers or no lockers, it was just a year break. 93? Iirc. I had ff Fj80 rear that was non lockers.

Makes sense, I think 1/2t dodge trucks used 5x5.5 UB for a long time. Or the common D60 UB, but that's overkill and heavy by Sami standards. Jeep JK is 5x5" and I think there is a military version in 5x5.5, but it's availability is questionable.

But I get that what's easy to get here is vastly different from over there. I see guys importing patrol parts to use on their rig, but I never would.

 

[Gwagensteve]

Oh - I don't quite know if I'll have to machine anything to make the locker work. I have a lead with ARB a mate is following up for me. It might just be a side gear swap.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

You can get the 8.4" Taco/Tundra rears pretty cheap. They are stronger than the 8" stuff and 5.29s and lockers are available. Dave Cole and Brian Ellinger ran them with stickies in their WeRock Mod class rock Crawler the year they took top spot.

Retube them with some D44 outers, early stuff, late model stuff, whatever works for you. Fabricated housing so easy to weld all over it and drop out 3rds, so easy to work on.

Another idea for the rear, is the late model Isuzu D44. 6 lug, disc brake and uses the bigger JK R&P. Jantz posted a bunch of stuff in a thread on the old site.

8.4 with JK C's welded on is kinda an interesting idea. Like a poor man's, weaker/lighter 609

I knew about the Isuzu D44, didn't know it used the JK D44 sized r&p though.

The Isuzu 12 bolt is also a pretty decent axle. Disc brakes, drop out 3rd, many came with 4.56s and also came in different widths. I think everything is slightly bigger than a Toyota axle.

What about the D44a? how dumb would it be under a Sami? I briefly read on them when I had a beater ZJ. Seemed that failures weren't common, but gear set ups not holding pattern were.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Oh - I don't quite know if I'll have to machine anything to make the locker work. I have a lead with ARB a mate is following up for me. It might just be a side gear swap.

I've always heard that arb trys to use common parts across similar sized lockers. Something around the size of Toyota 30 spline would be sweet.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

What about the D44a? how dumb would it be under a Sami? I briefly read on them when I had a beater ZJ. Seemed that failures weren't common, but gear set ups not holding pattern were.

Those housings flex pretty bad. I wouldn't even fuck with one of those unless I was trying to build a lightweight track car. Not holding a gear pattern is the first indication its a POS for what we do.

I think a set of JK 44's under a samurai would be pretty sweet.

 

[WoodburyZuk]

Friend of mine has a sami buggy on Land Rover discovery axles. It’s got that funky big 5 lug. They seem beefy. I know nothing about them. I do know said friend has a TDI and 38’s and likes beer… they seem to hold up to his abuse.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Those housings flex pretty bad. I wouldn't even fuck with one of those unless I was trying to build a lightweight track car. Not holding a gear pattern is the first indication its a POS for what we do.

I think a set of JK 44's under a samurai would be pretty sweet.

Ya, i mean if you could just toss it under there, it might be OK, but with all the other decent rear axles available, a D44a would be pretty dumb.

Rubicon D44s would be sweet, but they seem over priced. I think the D30 wouldn't be bad at all for most guys. But again, you'd have to retube and buy custom axles, so it wold be hard to put the money into a D30

Friend of mine has a sami buggy on Land Rover discovery axles. It’s got that funky big 5 lug. They seem beefy. I know nothing about them. I do know said friend has a TDI and 38’s and likes beer… they seem to hold up to his abuse.

I've always heard Landover axles were "made of glass" I don't know really anything about them, but I thought Toyota axles were a common upgrade?

 

[Wilson]

It wasn't lockers or no lockers, it was just a year break. 93? Iirc. I had ff Fj80 rear that was non lockers.

Makes sense, I think 1/2t dodge trucks used 5x5.5 UB for a long time. Or the common D60 UB, but that's overkill and heavy by Sami standards. Jeep JK is 5x5" and I think there is a military version in 5x5.5, but it's availability is questionable.

But I get that what's easy to get here is vastly different from over there. I see guys importing patrol parts to use on their rig, but I never would.

The fzj80 in ‘95+ was FF rear, lockers or not

 

[Wilson]

Also, as a side note…. I’ll be looking for Currie or dynatrac C’s. They are MUCH beefier than the jk 30/44 c’s and will fit better onto the larger rear axle tube size. Otherwise a butt weld and fancy machining would be the only way to do it (there wouldn’t be much meat left if the stock C’s were bored to fit the rear tube OD).

 

[WoodburyZuk]

Not really sure. He seems to break more sami tcase stuff more often.

Could also do a steering Ford 9” with d44 outers. Find a hp 3rd. That would be pretty slick.

I think this is an “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” situation. Toyota axles just seem like the go-to.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Also, as a side note…. I’ll be looking for Currie or dynatrac C’s. They are MUCH beefier than the jk 30/44 c’s and will fit better onto the larger rear axle tube size. Otherwise a butt weld and fancy machining would be the only way to do it (there wouldn’t be much meat left if the stock C’s were bored to fit the rear tube OD).

Are they offering them separately?

Have you considered just keeping the D30 center? If your still thinking 35s, it will probably be fine. More clearance, less wieght, HP, ect... 🤷

 

[Wilson]

I haven’t looked that far into it. My guess is not, but somewhere is a wrecked one ;). My whole “wheeling” scene is up in the air, honestly.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Not really sure. He seems to break more sami tcase stuff more often.

Could also do a steering Ford 9” with d44 outers. Find a hp 3rd. That would be pretty slick.

I think this is an “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” situation. Toyota axles just seem like the go-to.

Like, I said, Toyota axles are great, if you can find them. I can't see paying the ~$500 for just a front only to replace pretty much every part on the thing with rebuild and upgrades.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I haven’t looked that far into it. My guess is not, but somewhere is a wrecked one ;). My whole “wheeling” scene is up in the air, honestly.

Seems like the Sami axles have been treating you well, despite your efforts

I get what you're saying, it's easy to say it's not practical. But, it's really hard to step away from.

 

[Tech Tim]

8.4 with JK C's welded on is kinda an interesting idea. Like a poor man's, weaker/lighter 609

I knew about the Isuzu D44, didn't know it used the JK D44 sized r&p though.

JK Cs bend, so make sure to truss them.

I've always heard that arb trys to use common parts across similar sized lockers. Something around the size of Toyota 30 spline would be sweet.

Yes, the old Big Suzzana axles that Trail Tough used to do was the Sidekick ARB with D30 side gears swapped in.

I've always heard Landover axles were "made of glass" I don't know really anything about them, but I thought Toyota axles were a common upgrade?

Problem with the Rover axles is the pinion is on the ring gear/axle centerline, so they are weaker and the axles shafts are either 10 spline (old Rover) or 24 spline (newer Rover) and are small diameter.

Also, as a side note…. I’ll be looking for Currie or dynatrac C’s. They are MUCH beefier than the jk 30/44 c’s and will fit better onto the larger rear axle tube size. Otherwise a butt weld and fancy machining would be the only way to do it (there wouldn’t be much meat left if the stock C’s were bored to fit the rear tube OD).

JK Cs bend easy, the newer JL/JT Cs are burlier and don't seem to have the problem.

 

[Wilson]

JK Cs bend, so make sure to truss them.




Yes, the old Big Suzzana axles that Trail Tough used to do was the Sidekick ARB with D30 side gears swapped in.




Problem with the 'Salisbury" Rover axles is the pinion is on the ring gear/axle centerline, so they are weaker and the axles shafts are either 10 spline (old Rover) or 24 spline (newer Rover) and are small diameter.



JK Cs bend easy, the newer JL/JT Cs are burlier and don't seem to have the problem.

Stock or even the aftermarket? My Currie C’s dwarf the stockers

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Is a simple gusset all it takes to keep them from bending?

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Google found a few people saying that if you call dynatrac, they will sell you c's.

Curious how much they would want.