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6.7 Super Duty Maintenence/Mods

Tiha said:
cp3 won't fit in the valley of the 6.7
Click to expand...

Engineering marvel by Ford there. Will the HP4 (duramax) not fit either?

Don't know why yall are so surprised Ford won't admit it's an issue. It's their MO to run with a stupid fucking idea for at least 20 years.

For the record, I refuse to drive my new (to me) VW TDI till I do the CP3 swap.
 
TRINDU said:
Engineering marvel by Ford there. Will the HP4 (duramax) not fit either?

Don't know why yall are so surprised Ford won't admit it's an issue. It's their MO to run with a stupid fucking idea for at least 20 years.

For the record, I refuse to drive my new (to me) VW TDI till I do the CP3 swap.
Click to expand...
No idea on the HP4. I just read about the CP3 conversions when I was pump shopping.

When ford decided to use the CP4 they looked at the GM and Dodge failure, hence the electric fuel pump.

In theory it should have made a world of difference.

We don't really know the cause of all the CP4 failures we read about online, but I would bet most of them are man made. Not changing filters, faulty lift pumps, fuel contamination. Then blame everything but themselves. That is the world we live in.
They say it takes 1 suction event to turn a piston and destroy the CP4. Like restricted filter or partial gelling.
They also say Not properly priming the fuel system after a filter change, allowing air to cavitate the pump destroys them in a hurry.

Who knows what the truth is. But I do agree that there are a lot of CP4 failures due to human error.
 
TrailTamer said:
And you know what, human error is inevitable.

Even with air in fuel can cause CP4 to fail. This is inexcusable!

Redundancy engineering is lacking in a CP4 design.
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All true,

But put it in perspective. In the 70's people were shocked when a vehicle made it 100k miles. It was considered worn out well before that.

Now look at all the whiners. OMG my truck didn't make it to 500k miles trouble free, what a piece of crap. They never should have built this stupid thing. There is no excuse for this! Recall them all, start a class action lawsuit!

1960's owners manuals showed how to adjust valves and today owners manuals say "don't drink battery acid"
 
Tiha said:
All true,

But put it in perspective. In the 70's people were shocked when a vehicle made it 100k miles. It was considered worn out well before that.

Now look at all the whiners. OMG my truck didn't make it to 500k miles trouble free, what a piece of crap. They never should have built this stupid thing. There is no excuse for this! Recall them all, start a class action lawsuit!

1960's owners manuals showed how to adjust valves and today owners manuals say "don't drink battery acid"
Click to expand...
For what these trucks cost, they should last longer and not going to cost 5 digits to repair replace an entire system before their 84th monthly payment. And that's without guarantee it won't happen again.

Preventative Maintenance, wear & tear repairs where needed (steering, suspension, brakes, etc.), maybe a set of injectors to restore cold starting performance, turbo, rear end or a transmission by 500k miles isn't out of the line.



On other hand a friend of mine have over 500,000 miles on his 2015 Silverado 3500 pulling campers to dealerships and cars on wedge across the country. He said every major components on that truck is still original except for a set of injectors replaced ~300,000 miles ago. He just retired it with plan to put big lift and tires on it. He drive a C&C F450 6.7 now, and he had to have it towed once already. I think 2015 LMM is CP4.2?? I no idea how that compare to ford 6.7's CP4.
 
Tiha said:
We don't really know the cause of all the CP4 failures we read about online, but I would bet most of them are man made. Not changing filters, faulty lift pumps, fuel contamination. Then blame everything but themselves. That is the world we live in.
They say it takes 1 suction event to turn a piston and destroy the CP4. Like restricted filter or partial gelling.
They also say Not properly priming the fuel system after a filter change, allowing air to cavitate the pump destroys them in a hurry.
Click to expand...
Sounds a lot like:
arse_sidewards said:
unnecessarily high strung europoor garbage engineering that's only reliably in a lab
Click to expand...
 
The gen 2.1 DPK from S&S does everything I need it too. Also allows the cp4.2 to have higher flow above 3000rpm as well.
 
TrailTamer said:
For what these trucks cost, they should last longer and not going to cost 5 digits to repair replace an entire system before their 84th monthly payment. And that's without guarantee it won't happen again.

Preventative Maintenance, wear & tear repairs where needed (steering, suspension, brakes, etc.), maybe a set of injectors to restore cold starting performance, turbo, rear end or a transmission by 500k miles isn't out of the line.



On other hand a friend of mine have over 500,000 miles on his 2015 Silverado 3500 pulling campers to dealerships and cars on wedge across the country. He said every major components on that truck is still original except for a set of injectors replaced ~300,000 miles ago. He just retired it with plan to put big lift and tires on it. He drive a C&C F450 6.7 now, and he had to have it towed once already. I think 2015 LMM is CP4.2?? I no idea how that compare to ford 6.7's CP4.
Click to expand...
Ford uses the CP4.2 now as well.

There is finally a class action lawsuit against Ford for this pump so maybe we might see a change, I don't understand how the RAM recall has not effected the Ford, that's a real head scratcher.
 
CarterKraft said:
There is finally a class action lawsuit against Ford for this pump so maybe we might see a change, I don't understand how the RAM recall has not effected the Ford, that's a real head scratcher.
Click to expand...
I can not wrap my brain on why people defend the cp4 so hard when GM had a class action lawsuit and ram stepped away from it after a 2 year stint with warranty included to the consumer. I’m glad ford finally has a class action suit against them on the CP4. It’s an issue but I guess some just want to defend ford. Maybe it’s a brand loyalty thing.
 
06h3 said:
I can not wrap my brain on why people defend the cp4 so hard when GM had a class action lawsuit and ram stepped away from it after a 2 year stint with warranty included to the consumer. I’m glad ford finally has a class action suit against them on the CP4. It’s an issue but I guess some just want to defend ford. Maybe it’s a brand loyalty thing.
Click to expand...
My guess is it's a numbers deal, Ford usually doubles it's sales over Ram, 2023 was bad for ram selling 50% less trucks than '22.

If you sell a shit ton more your potential failure % goes down and doesn't look as bad (theory).

It's also likely Ford is bribing a ntsb official to ward away a recall. It's also possible Ram has a fatality due to the cp4 that caused the recall, anything is possible these days.

It's baffling to me that Ford has slipped by on this deal, as you say the only remaining OEM using the pump. We use a lot of Bosch CR pumps but don't have one either this track record.
 
06h3 said:
I can not wrap my brain on why people defend the cp4 so hard when GM had a class action lawsuit and ram stepped away from it after a 2 year stint with warranty included to the consumer. I’m glad ford finally has a class action suit against them on the CP4. It’s an issue but I guess some just want to defend ford. Maybe it’s a brand loyalty thing.
Click to expand...
But also think about some of the comments in this thread, people that are certain the cp4 will fail on their truck, even purchased components to prevent or eliminate associated damage and "haven't found the time" to install/remove the solutions.
 
CarterKraft said:
It's baffling to me that Ford has slipped by on this deal, as you say the only remaining OEM using the pump. We use a lot of Bosch CR pumps but don't have one either this track record.
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I'm telling you, it's the Europoor engineering culture.

"Ze pump is fine in ze tests, how will we get it to stop performing badly in ze field Klaus?"

"I don't know Hans. Clearly ze field conditions are unsuitable. Ze tests cannot be wrong. Perhaps we will throw a better filter at ze thing to increase ze MBTF to acceptable levels"

So they throw the fucking book at it, get the MBTF down 50% from "undeniably bad" to "we can lie using powerpoints and convince ourselves it's fine" and ship it.

Seriously, every Ford fuck up this century takes this same pattern or trying to make European Rube Goldberg garbage perform in the real world (whereas GM usually does dumb shit to avoid redesigning things and Ram will do dumb shit to shave $5 off the sticker).
 
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The thing is Ford just gets the shit from Bosch, it was "supposed" to be good for the task, there is no reason to select a component like that didn't MEET the standard regardless, cost or otherwise.

Then once it is selected and proven it is not acceptable now it's a risk/cost management decision there on out.
We have dividends, profits, shareholders to consider... As long as it pencils out for them to keep going with out absorbing the cost to correct the problem they are successful.

What baffles me the most is usually the manufacturer is on the hook for shitty product, not meeting spec etc. in this case that's Bosch.
If Bosch "updated" the pump to .2 status then it's possible it was acknowledged and changes were made. So is a 4.2 a problem still?
If yes then why? WATER IN FUEL is not a valid reason IMO, there is generally water in diesel of some amount.
IF the FORD supplied filters are not up to the task then maybe that explains it, Bosch has no need to make any changes, their product performs as designed.

Unfortunately we have ZERO data to support any of these theories just like we don't know if the CPX is actually better or if the Stanadyne 2P MDCR pump will ultimately be a solution.
 
Watching some more videos on them has any one heard how the buckets "lifters" were supposed to stay 90 to the cam?
It's confusing why the lifter has no alignment, I feel like theres either something in engineering that I am missing that wouldn't require a alignment or as Arse loves to say it was simpler (cheaper) to just rely on magic to keep them oriented correctly.
 
06h3 said:
I can not wrap my brain on why people defend the cp4 so hard when GM had a class action lawsuit and ram stepped away from it after a 2 year stint with warranty included to the consumer. I’m glad ford finally has a class action suit against them on the CP4. It’s an issue but I guess some just want to defend ford. Maybe it’s a brand loyalty thing.
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My guess is because Ram and Cummins are two separate companies, and either Cummins want to stay out of the court therefore delaying the discovery of their emission "defeating device" or because the Bosch is two companies away from Ram, putting Cummins in the middle and took care of it.
 
CarterKraft said:
Watching some more videos on them has any one heard how the buckets "lifters" were supposed to stay 90 to the cam?
It's confusing why the lifter has no alignment, I feel like theres either something in engineering that I am missing that wouldn't require a alignment or as Arse loves to say it was simpler (cheaper) to just rely on magic to keep them oriented correctly.
Click to expand...
If you look at the piston roller and cam lobe they are huge. As long as there is positive pressure the roller will never leave the cam lobe.

My understanding is when there is a suction event, such as restricted fuel filter, failed lift pump, or gelling. This creates suction in the piston cavity that lifts the roller off the lobe and allows the piston to spin in the cylinder, if it wants to.
If this is the case, it gets stuck on top of the lobe at 90 degrees then boom, the pump may freeze, breaks, or just shear some metal and send it through your fuel system.
If it rolls over a complete 180 then you have new wear pattern which can create metal shavings.

If the pump fails in this way those disaster kits do nothing for you.

About 20 years ago I was talking to a Navistar rep. He said at that time, for every new class 8 tractor built they add $10k to the price tag for lawyers and lawsuits.
 
CarterKraft

redundancy engineering, man.

Captain obviously, many things will function for a long time in ideal conditions, proper operation and maintenance.

Human errors (DEF pumped into fuel tank? running out of fuel or changing fuel filters introducing air into your CP4? :homer:), contaminated fuel from a shady gas station FAR into backwoods, heat soaking in the death valley in CA, and all way up to cold starting with no cold start aids in Prudhoe Bay in AK, neglect of owners, etc.

One thing I like about Ford's older diesels are their high pressure oil pump stuff make it literally impossible to willfully drive on too low, bad oil or no oil as there's no oil to operate the fuel system. Kinda same thing for Chevy's many engines with distributor type ignition as its oil pump is driven by distributor. No oil pumping = no sparky.
 
Tiha said:
If you look at the piston roller and cam lobe they are huge. As long as there is positive pressure the roller will never leave the cam lobe.

My understanding is when there is a suction event, such as restricted fuel filter, failed lift pump, or gelling. This creates suction in the piston cavity that lifts the roller off the lobe and allows the piston to spin in the cylinder, if it wants to.
If this is the case, it gets stuck on top of the lobe at 90 degrees then boom, the pump may freeze, breaks, or just shear some metal and send it through your fuel system.
If it rolls over a complete 180 then you have new wear pattern which can create metal shavings.

If the pump fails in this way those disaster kits do nothing for you.

About 20 years ago I was talking to a Navistar rep. He said at that time, for every new class 8 tractor built they add $10k to the price tag for lawyers and lawsuits.
Click to expand...

That's my understanding as well on the pump failure modes aside from water/DEF failures.

I'll probably end up buying a DCR kit and throwing it on this spring. Ford's DTE isn't super accurate in my case and we ran the truck out of fuel coming home from races twice last year so I've been paranoid about it since. I'm only at 100k and it'll be a much more expensive truck to replace than it will be to just maintain and keep around to 200-250k yanking the trailer around.
 
Tiha said:
If you look at the piston roller and cam lobe they are huge. As long as there is positive pressure the roller will never leave the cam lobe.

My understanding is when there is a suction event, such as restricted fuel filter, failed lift pump, or gelling. This creates suction in the piston cavity that lifts the roller off the lobe and allows the piston to spin in the cylinder, if it wants to.
If this is the case, it gets stuck on top of the lobe at 90 degrees then boom, the pump may freeze, breaks, or just shear some metal and send it through your fuel system.
If it rolls over a complete 180 then you have new wear pattern which can create metal shavings.

If the pump fails in this way those disaster kits do nothing for you.

About 20 years ago I was talking to a Navistar rep. He said at that time, for every new class 8 tractor built they add $10k to the price tag for lawyers and lawsuits.
Click to expand...
Yeah it seems like the spring force would keep it oriented correctly but obviously there are times when it doesn't.

I'm going to try and round up some pumps we use and see if they are all similar.
 
CarterKraft said:
The thing is Ford just gets the shit from Bosch, it was "supposed" to be good for the task, there is no reason to select a component like that didn't MEET the standard regardless, cost or otherwise.

Then once it is selected and proven it is not acceptable now it's a risk/cost management decision there on out.
We have dividends, profits, shareholders to consider... As long as it pencils out for them to keep going with out absorbing the cost to correct the problem they are successful.

What baffles me the most is usually the manufacturer is on the hook for shitty product, not meeting spec etc. in this case that's Bosch.
If Bosch "updated" the pump to .2 status then it's possible it was acknowledged and changes were made. So is a 4.2 a problem still?
If yes then why? WATER IN FUEL is not a valid reason IMO, there is generally water in diesel of some amount.
IF the FORD supplied filters are not up to the task then maybe that explains it, Bosch has no need to make any changes, their product performs as designed.

Unfortunately we have ZERO data to support any of these theories just like we don't know if the CPX is actually better or if the Stanadyne 2P MDCR pump will ultimately be a solution.
Click to expand...
I think Ford blaming consumers for bad fuel is... essentially... Ford admitting that their water/fuel separators do not work... How they get away with that, I'm not sure.
 
rockota said:
I think Ford blaming consumers for bad fuel is... essentially... Ford admitting that their water/fuel separators do not work... How they get away with that, I'm not sure.
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I agree completely, blame bad fuel = insurance pays the bill and the dealership/techs get rich...
 
CarterKraft said:
I agree completely, blame bad fuel = insurance pays the bill and the dealership/techs get rich...
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taking it a step further... if I were the CP4 MFG (Bosch?), I'd be pointing fingers at the fuel water separator and fuel filters as the culprit... and not accept any ownership of a possible problem.... IF the determination is "bad fuel" by Ford.

I guess it's all circular...
 
Not to interrupt another page about pump failures, but this popped up somewhere and I’m curious.
www.performancecustomcables.com

11-22 Ford 6.7 Powerstroke Big 3 & Drivers Side Terminal Kit — Performance Custom Cables

For sale we have our 6.7 powerstroke, Big 3 upgrade, as well as a terminal replacement for the drivers side battery. A huge problem on these trucks is the terminals corroding, and/ or breaking over time. We’ve come up with a solution, as well as a major upgrade. As always, our kits start our sign ma
www.performancecustomcables.com www.performancecustomcables.com

I never had a pump problem over the last half million miles in my last two pickups, but they did eat battery terminals and go through more batteries than I thought they should. Anybody think adding some grounds and a charging cable is going to fix that?
 
Gbkeith said:
Not to interrupt another page about pump failures, but this popped up somewhere and I’m curious.
www.performancecustomcables.com

11-22 Ford 6.7 Powerstroke Big 3 & Drivers Side Terminal Kit — Performance Custom Cables

For sale we have our 6.7 powerstroke, Big 3 upgrade, as well as a terminal replacement for the drivers side battery. A huge problem on these trucks is the terminals corroding, and/ or breaking over time. We’ve come up with a solution, as well as a major upgrade. As always, our kits start our sign ma
www.performancecustomcables.com www.performancecustomcables.com

I never had a pump problem over the last half million miles in my last two pickups, but they did eat battery terminals and go through more batteries than I thought they should. Anybody think adding some grounds and a charging cable is going to fix that?
Click to expand...
I think the batteries leak so bad they rot the terminals in the first few years, my experience anyway...
 
This looks awesome, easy to R&I and might get you a real WS filter. (price sux)

hs-motorsports.com

2017-2022 Ford 6.7L Power Stroke Lower Fuel Filter Upgrade Kit

Optimize your Ford with a spin-on fuel filter kit. Better filtration, quicker changes, and unmatched durability.
hs-motorsports.com hs-motorsports.com

1710356182196.png
 
CarterKraft said:
But also think about some of the comments in this thread, people that are certain the cp4 will fail on their truck, even purchased components to prevent or eliminate associated damage and "haven't found the time" to install/remove the solutions.
Click to expand...
:frown:

Yeah... but I'll mainly be cursing myself if something happens. I'm consistent on filter changes, properly prime when I do, and stick to my best chances at decent fuel and don't need to worry about gelling. Except today I used Chevron :emb4:
I still have a warranty till 100k but that's no guarantee they don't find a BS reason to try and deny it.
Tiha said:
If the pump fails in this way those disaster kits do nothing for you.
Click to expand...
How do they do nothing
CarterKraft said:
This looks awesome, easy to R&I and might get you a real WS filter. (price sux)

hs-motorsports.com

2017-2022 Ford 6.7L Power Stroke Lower Fuel Filter Upgrade Kit

Optimize your Ford with a spin-on fuel filter kit. Better filtration, quicker changes, and unmatched durability.
hs-motorsports.com hs-motorsports.com

1710356182196.png
Click to expand...
Why is that filter better? With known water content being common in diesel fuel, wouldn't a metal housing be more likely to introduce rust than the factory plastic housing?
 
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