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2000 Ford F-550 Build

'84 Bronco II said:
Why are you running a boost fooler? Take that shit off. Those are obsolete with the current state of tuning, and a good tuner should be using actual MAP for their fueling in their tunes. I am running PHP tunes and can get above 25PSI (GTP38 still, and measured T'ed off the MAP line with an analog ISS Pro gauge) and have never set off the boost over pressure Check engine light or had it go into limp mode. You need to get it on a single shot tune before you can do any real diagnosis though, driving a single shot truck with split shot tuning will fuck shit up (timing way too advanced). It should drive fine with stock '94-'96 tuning. I think your reman PCM might be causing your headache though for reasons you've mentioned. It would be nice to get a PCM that is a known quantity just to eliminate that concern.

All a buzz test will tell you is whether you have a dead injector, a cylinder contribution test and Perdels test is much more relevant, although it is common to have cylinders 3&8 be out of range without there being a problem due to the quirks of the factory CPS. Forscan will run any test you need and be able to pull any sensor data you are interested in and log data. There is no better program to use on a Ford.

As for your gearing concerns, a 7.3L is perfectly happy running at higher RPM, and hopefully you sized your turbo appropriately. With your current gearing, I probably would have stepped it up to an SXE366 with ~1.15 A/R turbine housing, but any SXE is a huge upgrade to the shitty factory GTP38. Personally, I would bite the bullet and re-gear the axles to 4.10 or 4.30 as mentioned previously if you find that you can't tolerate your current cruising RPM. Putting bigger tires on helps, but at the expense of more rotating mass which hurts power and fuel economy. I think auxiliary gearboxes are more hassle than they are worth, and a married NV271 is the way to go for a transfer case. Personally, I don't think you are going to want to be any lower than 2,200RPM while cruising at ~70MPH while loaded.

I would also run the '05+ axle if for nothing else, the better turning radius. All the other parts that go with it will literally bolt on to the '99-'04 frame after drilling a few holes (all the brackets have at least 1 existing hole on the '99-'04 frame to locate them). If you do decide to grab a front end out of a '99-'04 F250/F350, be aware that the SRW front ends are only rated at 4,800LBS GAWR, and pretty much all of the F250 axles (and many F350 axles) from '99 through '01 will be Dana 50s. They started phasing Dana 60s in across the lineup in '02, and by '03 pretty much everything had a Dana 60. I am not sure what the GAWR was for '99-'04 DRW F350 front axles, but I am pretty sure the F450s and F550s had thicker/bigger tubes at a minimum for higher GAWRs.

I know it is frustrating as hell now, but I think once you get your current issues sorted out, this is going to be a killer tow/camping rig.
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366/1.15 would destroy all of your low end power, 366/.91 is pretty laggy as is.
 
[486 said:
;n166409]

just go with a higher stall converter
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Whats the point? EGTs aren't much of a concern with the larger S300 turbos (73mm turbine). If anything tighten the turbine housing down to a .83ar. They respond very well to tight housings. Went from .91 to .83 on my 7.3/s366, EGTs stayed the same but dropped spool times by almost 200rpm. A 1.15 housing wouldn't start spooling until 2000rpm causing it to run more like a 70mm turbo.
 
back woods said:
Whats the point? EGTs aren't much of a concern with the larger S300 turbos (73mm turbine). If anything tighten the turbine housing down to a .83ar. They respond very well to tight housings. Went from .91 to .83 on my 7.3/s366, EGTs stayed the same but dropped spool times by almost 200rpm. A 1.15 housing wouldn't start spooling until 2000rpm causing it to run more like a 70mm turbo.
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His bigger injectors should work well with the bigger AR housing I would think.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
His bigger injectors should work well with the bigger AR housing I would think.
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Not needed with the SXE, they deliver with tight housings. Why have the extra lag when its not needed to perform well? The 364.5/366 is just on the verge of being too laggy for most setups unless the housings are correct.
 
back woods said:
Not needed with the SXE, they deliver with tight housings. Why have the extra lag when its not needed to perform well? The 364.5/366 is just on the verge of being too laggy for most setups unless the housings are correct.
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When you have more fuel, slight lag isn't really noticeable. Yet it could be choked out on the higher end. I'm not discounting your personal experience with a 366 on a 7.3 since I have none, but he has bigger injectors and 4.88 gears, so it is probably a different animal anyway.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
When you have more fuel, slight lag isn't really noticeable. Yet it could be choked out on the higher end. I'm not discounting your personal experience with a 366 on a 7.3 since I have none, but he has bigger injectors and 4.88 gears, so it is probably a different animal anyway.
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Lag is noticeable when the larger injectors are causing excess smoke without any more power being made.
 
I think he waits until it's running ripe with the current setup and check drive pressure etc to see about upping the AR on the 364
 
back woods said:
366/1.15 would destroy all of your low end power, 366/.91 is pretty laggy as is.
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You are correct, I was wrong on the turbine housing size. It has been a while since I last looked at the SX-E stuff and was thinking more along the lines of housings available for the GTP38. Turbine wheel size also makes a big difference, but upon cursory glance it looks like the SXE366 only comes with the 80mm turbine and .88, .91, and 1.00 AR housings.

Turbo lag and power band are two completely different things. A smaller turbine side will shift the power band lower in the RPM range by forcing the turbo to build boost sooner but causes a restriction at higher exhaust flows, and a larger turbine side will shift the power band up and provide less restriction at higher engine speeds for more efficient operation (lower EGTs and less back pressure). Lag is the delay when you punch it at low load and have to wait for the turbo to "spool up" so that it is providing the boost/flow it is capable of at full load at a given engine speed. While housing AR plays into lag, it is largely due to the inertia of the turbo rotating assembly.

Have you ever looked at your exhaust back pressure and compared it to you boost pressure? You want them as close as possible, or ideally more boost than exhaust back pressure for efficiency and turbo longevity. 06H3 has 4.88 gears and is looking for towing performance which means that he is going to be running steady state in the upper RPM ranges. That means lag and bottom-end destroying low end torque are not really a concern of his since he isn't diesel-ricing around.

Here is a comparison between an SXE366 with a .88 and 1.00 turbine housing. Don't get hung up on the HP since that is flywheel HP and assuming the truck can use 100% of the 180cc of at all RPMs. That neglects the pulse width constraints and injector refill times encountered in the real world. I also limited the AFR to 18:1 at low RPM since any richer than that is going to be a hot, smoky mess. I also couldn't find any good information giving a general relation between diesel AFR and EGTs, so the RPMs where the AFR is leaner than 20:1, you likely wouldn't be able to hit 1250F EGTs, so you wouldn't actually be able to spool the turbo as hard as I simulated.


Here is an SXE366 with an 80mm turbine in a ~.88A/R housing. As you can see, the thing runs like a raped ape at 1,800RPM, but starts taking a dive around 2,400RPM. It is still making plenty of power, just not efficiently as noted by the engine pressure delta. Here are my inputs if anyone else wants to mess around with it: https://www.borgwarner.com/go/ZUET7N

88AR 80mm SXE366.png



Here is an SXE366 with an 80mm turbine in a ~1.00A/R housing. You make small sacrifices at 1,500 and 1,800, but the engine is happier at 2,100, 2,400, 2,700, and 3,000 RPM with significant pressure delta improvements at these RPMs. Here are my inputs if anyone else wants to mess around with it: https://www.borgwarner.com/go/8LZUAK

100AR 80mm SXE366.png
 
'84 Bronco II said:
You are correct, I was wrong on the turbine housing size. It has been a while since I last looked at the SX-E stuff and was thinking more along the lines of housings available for the GTP38. Turbine wheel size also makes a big difference, but upon cursory glance it looks like the SXE366 only comes with the 80mm turbine and .88, .91, and 1.00 AR housings.

Turbo lag and power band are two completely different things. A smaller turbine side will shift the power band lower in the RPM range by forcing the turbo to build boost sooner but causes a restriction at higher exhaust flows, and a larger turbine side will shift the power band up and provide less restriction at higher engine speeds for more efficient operation (lower EGTs and less back pressure). Lag is the delay when you punch it at low load and have to wait for the turbo to "spool up" so that it is providing the boost/flow it is capable of at full load at a given engine speed. While housing AR plays into lag, it is largely due to the inertia of the turbo rotating assembly.

Have you ever looked at your exhaust back pressure and compared it to you boost pressure? You want them as close as possible, or ideally more boost than exhaust back pressure for efficiency and turbo longevity. 06H3 has 4.88 gears and is looking for towing performance which means that he is going to be running steady state in the upper RPM ranges. That means lag and bottom-end destroying low end torque are not really a concern of his since he isn't diesel-ricing around.

Here is a comparison between an SXE366 with a .88 and 1.00 turbine housing. Don't get hung up on the HP since that is flywheel HP and assuming the truck can use 100% of the 180cc of at all RPMs. That neglects the pulse width constraints and injector refill times encountered in the real world. I also limited the AFR to 18:1 at low RPM since any richer than that is going to be a hot, smoky mess. I also couldn't find any good information giving a general relation between diesel AFR and EGTs, so the RPMs where the AFR is leaner than 20:1, you likely wouldn't be able to hit 1250F EGTs, so you wouldn't actually be able to spool the turbo as hard as I simulated.


Here is an SXE366 with an 80mm turbine in a ~.88A/R housing. As you can see, the thing runs like a raped ape at 1,800RPM, but starts taking a dive around 2,400RPM. It is still making plenty of power, just not efficiently as noted by the engine pressure delta. Here are my inputs if anyone else wants to mess around with it: https://www.borgwarner.com/go/ZUET7N




Here is an SXE366 with an 80mm turbine in a ~1.00A/R housing. You make small sacrifices at 1,500 and 1,800, but the engine is happier at 2,100, 2,400, 2,700, and 3,000 RPM with significant pressure delta improvements at these RPMs. Here are my inputs if anyone else wants to mess around with it: https://www.borgwarner.com/go/8LZUAK

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The .88ar is an open scroll housing and the .83, .91, 1.0 etc are all twin scroll so the comparison is skewed. Having low end boost is not "ricing around" and even with 4.88 gears low end response is still important. Unless you like smoking and having low power until the boost comes up. FWIW the 366/.83 is pretty happy in the upper RPMs. I frequently tow over 12k with it on pretty hot tunes.
 
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back woods said:
The .88ar is an open scroll housing and the .83, .91, 1.0 etc are all twin scroll so the comparison is skewed. Having low end boost is not "ricing around" and even with 4.88 gears low end response is still important. Unless you like smoking and having low power until the boost comes up. FWIW the 366/.83 is pretty happy in the upper RPMs. I frequently tow over 12k with it on pretty hot tunes.
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How do you know unless you are looking at exhaust back pressure? Are you monitoring yours? Just because it is still making power and EGTs are in check doesn't mean it is efficient. According to the Borg Warner calculator, with the 1.00AR turbine housing, he would still be fuel-limited above 1,800RPM, and even the smaller turbine housing is air-flow limited at 1,500RPM. Unfortunately, Borg Warner doesn't provide turbine maps, so it is really hard to fully quantify the different turbine options. With his gears, he is going to be above 1,800RPM in overdrive all the way down to 50MPH. Besides, he has an automatic, not a manual. It isn't going to hold full load below 1,800RPM without unlocking the converter or down-shifting.

Regardless, there are many variables that affect turbo selection, and as I said before, any SX-E will be a huge improvement over the GTP38.
 
'84 Bronco II said:
How do you know unless you are looking at exhaust back pressure? Are you monitoring yours? Just because it is still making power and EGTs are in check doesn't mean it is efficient. According to the Borg Warner calculator, with the 1.00AR turbine housing, he would still be fuel-limited above 1,800RPM, and even the smaller turbine housing is air-flow limited at 1,500RPM. Unfortunately, Borg Warner doesn't provide turbine maps, so it is really hard to fully quantify the different turbine options. With his gears, he is going to be above 1,800RPM in overdrive all the way down to 50MPH. Besides, he has an automatic, not a manual. It isn't going to hold full load below 1,800RPM without unlocking the converter or down-shifting.

Regardless, there are many variables that affect turbo selection, and as I said before, any SX-E will be a huge improvement over the GTP38.
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Just because it is still making power and EGTs are in check doesn't mean it is efficient
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Well it is a damn good indicator on how efficient it is running as back pressure is what normally leads to increased EGTs.



Ran an EBP gauge on my truck for quite a while with the 366/.91 and it was 1:1 up to the 35psi boost the turbo made. Sometimes it would spike towards 1:1.25 but exhaust pulses can do that. When I switched from the .91 to the .83 the EBP gauge had already been removed because it was pointless. I run an automatic as well, depending on which Hydra file you run you can push it close to 75% throttle without downshifting.
 
'84 Bronco II said:
How do you know unless you are looking at exhaust back pressure? Are you monitoring yours? Just because it is still making power and EGTs are in check doesn't mean it is efficient. According to the Borg Warner calculator, with the 1.00AR turbine housing, he would still be fuel-limited above 1,800RPM, and even the smaller turbine housing is air-flow limited at 1,500RPM. Unfortunately, Borg Warner doesn't provide turbine maps, so it is really hard to fully quantify the different turbine options. With his gears, he is going to be above 1,800RPM in overdrive all the way down to 50MPH. Besides, he has an automatic, not a manual. It isn't going to hold full load below 1,800RPM without unlocking the converter or down-shifting.

Regardless, there are many variables that affect turbo selection, and as I said before, any SX-E will be a huge improvement over the GTP38.
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Awesome job for linking up those charts.

I think with the gears he has the 1.0 AR is going to be the ticket in the 364 and as backwoods is championing might need a smaller AR for a 366.
For his purpose and cruise RPM I think he will be out of "wind" at the 2500+ rpm and it will lug much easier than it should. The larger AR will help that similar to the old Van turbo mod that was popular.
 
Is there a factory exhaust back pressure sensor that can be read on a OBDII device?

All good info here that I will go back to when this shit box is running. I called 1023 diesel and told them that my issues with the dead pedal went away after ditching the tuner. He thinks it has nothing to do with the tunes, it is PCM related or the fact that I dont have all the silicone off the contacts, I triple checked all silicone was off the PCM. I did get a tuner checklist test to see if the chip is working or not.

He thinks there are major problems with something mechanical. He said there is no way in hell I should be having black smoke at idle, which I have had now since I got it started for the first time. He doesn't think its a stuck injector but some friends are saying they think it would be if I have endless black smoke at idle.

Anyways, I am going to pull the valve covers off, ditch those dorman gaskets, get motorcraft ones but before I do he said start it with the valve covers off and check for anything odd. Also check for injector height and make sure they are all the same, etc. I am hoping its a stuck open injector or something not related to my competence LOL I did check everything twice when I installed it and went slow. I am as green as they come to the diesel world but thought I would at least be able to do these modifications. I drive it and accepted the absolute shitiness because I figured air was in the system, it will run like crap for the first 50 miles, etc. I put probably 3 miles on the truck and if I did damage it ill be pretty damn pist but oh well, I guess I will learn the hard way.

I checked the coolant levels, I have no oil in it, its tough to tell if I have diesel fuel in it because I just have straight water in there right now but I plan to put coolant in it and see if I have diesel in the coolant.

I will report back on the injectors when I get the covers off.
 
06h3 said:
Is there a factory exhaust back pressure sensor that can be read on a OBDII device?

All good info here that I will go back to when this shit box is running. I called 1023 diesel and told them that my issues with the dead pedal went away after ditching the tuner. He thinks it has nothing to do with the tunes, it is PCM related or the fact that I dont have all the silicone off the contacts, I triple checked all silicone was off the PCM. I did get a tuner checklist test to see if the chip is working or not.

He thinks there are major problems with something mechanical. He said there is no way in hell I should be having black smoke at idle, which I have had now since I got it started for the first time. He doesn't think its a stuck injector but some friends are saying they think it would be if I have endless black smoke at idle.

Anyways, I am going to pull the valve covers off, ditch those dorman gaskets, get motorcraft ones but before I do he said start it with the valve covers off and check for anything odd. Also check for injector height and make sure they are all the same, etc. I am hoping its a stuck open injector or something not related to my competence LOL I did check everything twice when I installed it and went slow. I am as green as they come to the diesel world but thought I would at least be able to do these modifications. I drive it and accepted the absolute shitiness because I figured air was in the system, it will run like crap for the first 50 miles, etc. I put probably 3 miles on the truck and if I did damage it ill be pretty damn pist but oh well, I guess I will learn the hard way.

I checked the coolant levels, I have no oil in it, its tough to tell if I have diesel fuel in it because I just have straight water in there right now but I plan to put coolant in it and see if I have diesel in the coolant.

I will report back on the injectors when I get the covers off.
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Yes, you can pull up the exhaust back pressure through Forscan or any other OBD II tool that can read PIDs.
 
CarterKraft said:
Awesome job for linking up those charts.

I think with the gears he has the 1.0 AR is going to be the ticket in the 364 and as backwoods is championing might need a smaller AR for a 366.
For his purpose and cruise RPM I think he will be out of "wind" at the 2500+ rpm and it will lug much easier than it should. The larger AR will help that similar to the old Van turbo mod that was popular.
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The Van turbo did have a larger turbine as well, by almost 2mm. The 1.15 Van turbo was still hot running with the larger AR housing, even after adding a billet wheel and s300 turbine it is a hot turbo. There is no way a standard 364.5/.91 can be "out of wind" at 2500+ rpm cruising speed, it should SHINE at those RPMs. A 364.5/.91 should barely crack 1000* EGTs at those RPMs under a full load. We are talking about a 73mm turbine exducer compared the the 68mm exducer that came in the gtp38/38r. No matter what the AR it is pushing hot air out of a much larger hole. With a stock frame GTP38 they run hot at lower RPMs and to get them to run cool you NEED to run at 2500rpm. How does that work? Stock turbo shines at 2500rpm (even with larger injectors), much larger turbo on both ends is out of air at 2500rpm?

Thanks for the MAPs!
 
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back woods said:
The Van turbo did have a larger turbine as well, by almost 2mm. The 1.15 Van turbo was still hot running with the larger AR housing, even after adding a billet wheel and s300 turbine it is a hot turbo. There is no way a standard 364.5/.91 can be "out of wind" at 2500+ rpm cruising speed, it should SHINE at those RPMs. A 364.5/.91 should barely crack 1000* EGTs at those RPMs under a full load. We are talking about a 73mm turbine exducer compared the the 68mm exducer that came in the gtp38/38r. No matter what the AR it is pushing hot air out of a much larger hole. With a stock frame GTP38 they run hot at lower RPMs and to get them to run cool you NEED to run at 2500rpm. How does that work? Stock turbo shines at 2500rpm (even with larger injectors), much larger turbo on both ends is out of air at 2500rpm?

Thanks for the MAPs!
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Maybe my choice of winds was not stated correctly.
If he is going to be cruising at 2800 RPM, then my concern was that he might be off the map at those RPMS.

I am not suggesting he has the right or wrong turbo or AR, I was just saying be sure to include the cruising RPM in discussions about the turbo because that use will be much different than most guys with 3.73 gears and 35" tires.
 
[486 said:
;n168788]

post/pre turbine
respectively
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On the 7.3 the EBP is pre turbine no? There is no post turbine pressure sensor on the 7.3, so Backpressure = Drive pressure?
 
CarterKraft said:
On the 7.3 the EBP is pre turbine no? There is no post turbine pressure sensor on the 7.3, so Backpressure = Drive pressure?
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The EBPV is post turbine but the pressure sensor is in the manifold. You should see mine go crazy when I use it as an exhaust brake.
 
Try a different tuner? Had issues with their tunes and have read many accounts of similar experiences. Cant get the truck tuned right so the truck is blamed instead. They're tunes had terrible transmission characteristics. They did "everything they could" to smooth it out to no avail. Changed tuners and problems went away. Seem to remember on another forum a guy having issues with smoke at idle. They had to pulse width cranked way up at idle.
 
I think I got it figured out, I swapped out the valve cover gasket on the driver side (since cyl 2 was failing the buzz test) and it idles 1000% better, I didnt drive it but will today. I will swap out the other side to MC gaskets. So the excessive black smoke tells me the wiring to the injector wiring was grounded out and causing it to stick open. The excessive blow by I now have tells me it was stuck closed, giving it no fuel and then driving it fucked up the rings or cylinder wall :mad3:

I plugged the tuner back in and the tunes seem to idle ok and have throttle response but haven't driven it yet.
 
If it wasnt getting any fuel it wont mess up the cylinder wall. The UVCH go out all the time in and just causes a cylinder not to fire, it still gets lubrication.
 
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