- Thread starter
- #151
.200 is my bar of choice. .185 if you don’t have shakes to dial out
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Last Call Guest on these Group Buy Deal Items from Baja Designs
DE ram with steering box AKA 4500 class steering migration
- Thread starter JR4X
- Start date
Fwjeep
Well-known member
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- Dec 28, 2020
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It’s totally reliant on the car and its setup. I have used .185-.225 , and .235 was too thick and had not enough power.
You can always make them smaller, but never larger. Torsion bars are tempered springs, but can use a bench sander on them in a lathe, if you’re desperate.
If from Howe- they wouldn’t sell a torsion bar to me, only a whole spool valve assembly to put in the sweet housing. And it was only 200$ cheaper than a new complete servo.
If you prefer pain and suffering, you can buy just the torsion bars from sweet. I do not recommend as you really need a test bench/hydro dyno to get it right. They need lathe work to fit, and an o-ring groove added etc..
If you think it might be something you’re gonna tune, Woodward sells an easier replaceable torsion bar servo. Aviable in different valve opening curves. Eric At radial said some trophy truck HAVE used them
There is also a product that should be just as good, but totally different design coming to market (this year?) that you will see.
You can always make them smaller, but never larger. Torsion bars are tempered springs, but can use a bench sander on them in a lathe, if you’re desperate.
If from Howe- they wouldn’t sell a torsion bar to me, only a whole spool valve assembly to put in the sweet housing. And it was only 200$ cheaper than a new complete servo.
If you prefer pain and suffering, you can buy just the torsion bars from sweet. I do not recommend as you really need a test bench/hydro dyno to get it right. They need lathe work to fit, and an o-ring groove added etc..
If you think it might be something you’re gonna tune, Woodward sells an easier replaceable torsion bar servo. Aviable in different valve opening curves. Eric At radial said some trophy truck HAVE used them
There is also a product that should be just as good, but totally different design coming to market (this year?) that you will see.
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
I don’t mean to derail this recent problem solving because it’s really interesting to note the cause and effect. But just to add a bit to the recent questions on depowering a delphi 600 WJ box I took some fresh pics. It genuinely looks like it could be crazy easy. As in possibly remove the servo barrel, weld the input to the main shaft, and cap the lines (maybe with a check valve to let it breathe)
Here’s the input, servo barrel, and main shaft as-assembled, and about where they land in the servo housing:
The servo housing has a roller bearing and seal that ride on that polished surface supporting that end of the input:
Here you can see the pin that holds the servo barrel in place. To remove it, you actually need to drive out the pin holding the input to the torsion bar, and slide the input shaft out so the servo barrel can rock out of position and off the pin
Here’s the input, servo barrel, and main shaft as-assembled, and about where they land in the servo housing:
The servo housing has a roller bearing and seal that ride on that polished surface supporting that end of the input:
Here you can see the pin that holds the servo barrel in place. To remove it, you actually need to drive out the pin holding the input to the torsion bar, and slide the input shaft out so the servo barrel can rock out of position and off the pin
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AgitatedPancake
Frobot
But from there, you can just reinstall the input shaft, and the splines that interface between input and main shaft locate that end of it nicely. The splines allow like 20-30 degrees of free rotation, that’s how much it lets the torsion bar twist before going hard metal on metal so you can wrench on the wheel without breaking the bar
So I think you can just weld it here, and be done (but maybe check that you keep it aligned true as you tack it. But the torsion bar will help keep it aligned even though you’re not actually using it)
So I think you can just weld it here, and be done (but maybe check that you keep it aligned true as you tack it. But the torsion bar will help keep it aligned even though you’re not actually using it)
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Torsion bar is .200" diameter, I'll measure the active length tomorrow
Very nice. LHD and RHD WJ boxes give rear swing inside and outside the frame rail options, then LHD and RHD JK boxes give front swing inside and outside the frame rail options. So between those 4, you can package them essentially however ya want
I think you were onto something AgitatedPancake the only other thing is don’t forget to cut slits in the piston to allow fluid to flow through easily
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Heck yeah. With no servo barrel, the two ports are already connected together so I'm not even sure you need to do that unless you feel they're causing restriction
I am still absorbing this style steering ignore my ignorance if I am way off. Tapped Delphi box with the long passage welded closed and sending all pump flow to the cylinder. If the servo ports can flow enough or be ported.
Instead of cutting reliefs in the piston. Leave the seal in place and drill free bleed holes like a shock piston. Trail an error on the bleed hole size could tune the unpowered piston to the flow to the cylinder to balance the speed.
Instead of cutting reliefs in the piston. Leave the seal in place and drill free bleed holes like a shock piston. Trail an error on the bleed hole size could tune the unpowered piston to the flow to the cylinder to balance the speed.
- Thread starter
- #162
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
In the particular instance we're talking about, it's skipping the box entirely with the hydraulics, just going straight from an external servo to the ram alone. It sounds like your first sentence is thinking about still using the internal servo in these boxes, but only using the servo to power an external ram. I think that's super interesting too, I think I recall JR or someone mentioning that someone had experimented with that before? But I can't recall the details
They are. That port would probably be the first restriction for the Delphi boxes like they are in the Saginaws. I'm actually really curious how much restriction backpressure that can create even with quick lock to lock times. It's definitely not zero, but with the thin viscosity of our steering fluids, is it actually noticeable?
- Thread starter
- #164
I did, and it’s detailed a little in this thread in the first few pages. I’m ready to try that again for a trail only rig. Not a race rig.
It’s a huge noticeable restriction on a Saginaw box. Bust out your drill bits. A Saginaw is exactly 7/32 for that port.
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Good to know. So in that case, yeah drilling that out, or punching through the piston somehow would ensure you're not fighting those excessive restrictions while the box is just keeping itself lubricated.
Regarding the in-box servo for an external ram, it would be really cool to see it on a Delphi boxes with one of those PSC billet servo housings. They give you assist ports directly to the servo so they're not bottlenecked by anything in the box. Then you would just need to block off the feeds into the rest of the steering box
DesertCJ
Name of Pheel...
I was/am planning on using the internal servo on a standard JK box to power a DE cylinder for a street/trail rig. I may end up just doing regular hydro assist though…I’m not sure. I’ll probably try the 3/4 hydro route and if it doesn’t work then standard hydro assist is plan B.
- Thread starter
- #168
☝️ that thing should negate my whole setup. Even its $1500 bucks it’ll be cheaper than the way I do it.
Malburg114
Well-known member
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I talked to a 4500 driver at koh and he was using something similar. Said it was a box from brenthel and used a double ended ram and just hooked it up like hydro assisted. I’d be interested to hear what others think of it.
ParadisePWoffrd
Recovering Project Junkie
Do you think the internal flow paths were increased to prevent busting the box on hard hits? Also, Im assuming the larger servo body would allow enough flow to match the larger cylinders?
AgitatedPancake
Frobot
Confirmed the bar is .200 within a thou or so, and has a ~2.6” active length to the start of the tapers.
Also worth noting, in the WJ world there were some factory statements that around 2002-2004 they put lighter torsion bars in boxes, while the 99-01 were a little stiffer.
This one I’m measuring came from an 02 or 03, but I’m not sure if the box was original, and the remans/aftermarket don’t seem to differentiate so I’m not confident. I wish I knew if this was the lighter variant or the heavier. Would be interesting to measure the bar in the box of my 2000 that I know is original.
DesertCJ
Name of Pheel...
That looks like a Ford box not a RHD JK.....I believe you are working with an Xterra or WJ box but here is another option. RHD JK box mounted outside on the drivers side. Delphi box.
Malburg114
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I guess I never set the pre load through the top cap. I added some and finally got to drive it and the darting feeling is gone and it drives super well. Had it up to 55 on the asphalt and no issues.
I do wish I had a lower lock to lock box but that’ll come at a later time.
Fwjeep
Well-known member
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Fantastic. Was cheap and easy to fix. So it was play in the box then.
It is defiantly a JK box. Ford box only has 3 mounting bolts.
Rnuovrcj5
Red Skull
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I’m pretty sure it is a ford box. It looks just like the one I used on my jeep.
I added an older pic I had instead of an updated one. I currently have a JK box one the build. I will grab a pic of both side by side. They are very similar.I measured the xterra torsion bar and it was also .200 with a length of 2.6, how does that compare to torsion bar length in a sweet servo? Fwjeep idk if that’s proprietary info or not, but I figure if the bar is longer in a sweet servo is may help others decide rate when comparing it to a Delphi 600 box they used in the past.
