Sandy Johnson
Harry Member
I think you and I probably live in very different places. If I were somewhere rural with low population density, I would feel the same as you.. except for the nuts part. What are you? A barbarian?!?
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you shoot them in the leg
- Thread starter Provience
- Start date
I think you and I probably live in very different places. If I were somewhere rural with low population density, I would feel the same as you.. except for the nuts part. What are you? A barbarian?!?
Why do you care who pays for it? You don't pay taxes so again, you're not affected
Sandy Johnson
Harry Member
True.. although maybe not calling it a "chimp out" would help keep the racist tone of the message down
True.. although maybe not calling it a "chimp out" would help keep the racist tone of the message down
You have never seen or met an albino chimp?
Sandy Johnson
Harry Member
You have never seen or met an albino chimp?
Only in a crappy movie adaptation of a Michael Crichton book, and I don't see how those could be related to a dangerous white trash trailer par...
...ok, never mind.
I mapped Spreckels Ca and it is essentially in a rural area. Where there is a will there is a way. Not buying that at all. Detective is not enthused or motivated apparently. All of the PRIVATE ranges here in the Sacramento area are free to LEO. One of the top three is County leased so they have to by Code. The other ranges, Sacramento Valley Shooting and Dilman all are commonly frequented by various LEO. I think the Sac City PD or County Sheriff have their own ranges but I am not certain on that. Point is, two points are:
I doubt the Sprekels LEO, be htey townies or County Sherriff have tried very hard to secure range time. Most Gun ranges are very pro 2nd Amendment and very pro LEO. - Show me.
Spreckels borders thousands of acres, hundreds of square miles of open rural land. My Hunting app shows thousands of acres of BLM within a mile of the River Bend there.
Where there is a will there is a way.
Spell check cannot resolve "sherriff" in any way shape or form
Sandy Johnson
Harry Member
I mapped Spreckels Ca and it is essentially in a rural area. Where there is a will there is a way. Not buying that at all. Detective is not enthused or motivated apparently. All of the PRIVATE ranges here in the Sacramento area are free to LEO. One of the top three is County leased so they have to by Code. The other ranges, Sacramento Valley Shooting and Dilman all are commonly frequented by various LEO. I think the Sac City PD or County Sheriff have their own ranges but I am not certain on that. Point is, two points are:
I doubt the Sprekels LEO, be htey townies or County Sherriff have tried very hard to secure range time. Most Gun ranges are very pro 2nd Amendment and very pro LEO. - Show me.
Spreckels borders thousands of acres, hundreds of square miles of open rural land. My Hunting app shows thousands of acres of BLM within a mile of the River Bend there.
Where there is a will there is a way.
Spell check cannot resolve "sherriff" in any way shape or form
For someone who is bragging about their google skills, you missed a lot there.
Spreckels, Ca is right Next to Salinas, Ca.(less than a 5 mile drive). The Salinas PD has staff shortages and OT issues. Seaside, Ca, Marina, Ca, and Monterey, Ca. are also near Spreckels. My friend happens to work for the Marina, Ca PD. They have worse staffing issues than Salinas beacuse they are a smaller department with less funding. They can't afford to stop paying their officers OT to free up money to hire new officers because they would end up without enough coverage during certain hours.
They use a monterey county range at Laugna Seca and they do have LEO range days.. If I remember right, they can show up at any time and use it.
Anyway, the issue is not that officers don't have the facilities or the drive to want to go shoot. It's that they're pulling so much OT to cover for staffing issues that they are exhausted and already don't have much time with their families, so extra range time on their own really isn't on the priority list.. Sleep and family time apparently get top priority for some reason.
Thefishguy77
Part time dumbass
Important government functions is very subjective. Important to me is probably completely different than important to you. 75% of our government is waste IMO. Yes some “important” jobs will be cut and private sector will be right there to pick up the slack. Private sector is almost always less expensive and faster than when the government tries to act as a business.
Accountability of tax expenditures is far more important than broad statements like taxes are important. Knowing where your money is going should be far more important than having the attitude of well taxes are important so I guess if they tell me I need to pay more then I guess the government is right.
When the federal government is the largest full time employer in a country by over double the 2nd largest like 5 times larger than the number 3 employer, then I think there is a fair amount of waste.
But thats another thread as well.
Sterlingfire
ignant
I think you missed the point...
Point out specifically which laws keep you safe then.
Rape still happens, murder still happens, theft still happens, people still drive shitty vehicles on the road, there is still homelessness, still unsafe borders, etc, etc...
Do you actual buy into the idea that if it weren't for laws, your average man of today would instantly turn into some sort of evil being? That the only way to insure good moral values and honesty is to have, and allow more legislation? I feel that is an absurd way to look at it.
Roc Doc
2A SNBI
They need to get rid of the Department of Redundancy Departments.
City - PD
County outside of City -Sheriff
Federal - FBI
International - CIA.
That's it, no ATF, no DHS, definitely no TSA, no BP, no DEA, no Marshals Service, no IRS Criminal Investigation, etc.
Roc Doc
2A SNBI
Your joking, right?
They have been putting up new border wall every day for the last 3.5 years. The news media and liberals went on to cry about other topics, so it must not be happening......I was just working with a drilling company that has had an entire crew strictly dedicated to border wall work for the last 3.5 years. Texas is pretty much finished, most of New Mexico is finished and the crew is now in Douglas, Arizona working. I'll see if I can get you some pictures, but trust me when I say its happening.
You might want to look at this map. https://www.cbp.gov/border-security/along-us-borders/border-wall-system Under DJT about 371 miles have been completed and much of that was replacement of existing barrier. It's near a 2000 mile project so it's gonna take a while and if Joe gets in, you know he'll have work stopped right away.
Sandy Johnson
Harry Member
Ok, I'll play.
Say you park your car in the home depot parking lot. Do you lock your doors? Cars still get broken into all the time, so what's the point of door locks? They're there to make it more difficult to break in and keep the casual thief honest.
Same goes for laws. People can still drive drunk, sure, but there are officers out there looking for that and stopping those who they catch. In your argument, there is no difference between a world where every drunk driver who was arrested last year was never stopped and the world we live in now. (if you're a numbers person, the estimate is 1.5 million people get arrested every year for driving under the influence) That's not including all of those amoral people who didn't drive drunk last year because they were worried about being arrested, losing their license or getting fined.
So why do I think population density affects people's views on laws? That 1.5 million americans number comes out to something like 1 in every 218 people, so if you're in a small town of say 500 people, you're looking at 2 or 3 arrests, which doesn't seem like a big deal. But now move those numbers to somewhere large like San Francisco with 883,000 people in a 47 square mile area, and you've got got a little over 4,000 DUI arrests a year. In that case, it is a big deal and probably saved some lives.
Sterlingfire
ignant
I don't lock my doors all the time...i do lock my work trailers up, and wouldn't you know it, just last week one got broken into. The locks didn't do shit. The police aren't doing shit but waiting for them to break into another one. When/ if they get caught they will do max 18 months and get out to do it all over again. So the law putting that person in prison, isn't doing anything to keep anyone safe, just delaying the inevitable.
On to your drunk driving estimates. I don't agree with you, at all. For every person that gets caught driving drunk, I'll bet there are at least 5 others in the same vicinity drinking and driving. I know a lot of Leo, every one of them drinks and drives. The law isn't stopping people from drinking and driving, if it is, its a very low percentage. The law is making those who get caught pay an extortion fee to be able to drink and drive...
On to another question. Is having a license plate light keeping you safe? What about if you happen to have a taillight out, is that somehow infringing upon other's safety? What about the law that says my wife has to ask permission before she can get a hair cut, is that somehow keeping citizens safe?
Why must we be inundated with laws that have nothing to do with safety? I'll tell you why, because cops are on the road for revenue, that's all, it's not safety at all, it's to force people to pay extortion fees for the privilege of breaking a law or two.
I don't believe we need to abolish all laws. We should be abolishing stupid laws that keep us down as a society, and outdated nonsense laws.
I think people need to realize that laws are definitely not keeping them safe. We should certainly put more emphasis on self defense in our society, instead of taking ones ability to defend themselves away from them.
Sandy Johnson
Harry Member
If you don't think that laws keep you safe- as you implied in your previous post to me, then why are you in favor of not abolishing all laws and just getting rid of the "stupid laws"? I think we can all agree there are worthless laws out there. I think I can also relate how a license plate light helps promote public safety. If someone saw the people breaking into your trailer, they could grab the license number of the vehicle they're using to steal your stuff and report it to the cops. If they're doing this at night, with one or more working tail lights
, the brightness of those lights is going to make it hard for someone to be able to read their license number at night. So yeah, if I'm someone out doing illegal things, but I don't want to draw too much attention to myself, it would be worth it to me to try and make it as hard as possible to read my plate, while still keeping it on the vehicle so I don't get pulled over on my way back from stealing your shit. No license plate light, but a license plate = win/win for a bad guy at night time with no license plate light laws. It's funny that you're complaining about someone breaking into your trailer and stealing stuff, then getting caught, doing some time, getting out and doing it all over again. It sounds like your state doesn't have a 3 strikes law. Maybe they need one?
Don't get me wrong though- I'm not all about adding a new law for every little thing. But I do keep in mind that assholes are going to find loopholes, and that's where most of your absurd laws come from. People trying to plug loopholes.
I don't know about this haircut law you're talking about, but it sounds like a stupid law and should probably be removed.
Sterlingfire
ignant
If you don't think that laws keep you safe- as you implied in your previous post to me, then why are you in favor of not abolishing all laws and just getting rid of the "stupid laws"? I think we can all agree there are worthless laws out there. I think I can also relate how a license plate light helps promote public safety. If someone saw the people breaking into your trailer, they could grab the license number of the vehicle they're using to steal your stuff and report it to the cops. If they're doing this at night, with one or more working tail lights
It's funny that you're complaining about someone breaking into your trailer and stealing stuff, then getting caught, doing some time, getting out and doing it all over again. It sounds like your state doesn't have a 3 strikes law. Maybe they need one?
Don't get me wrong though- I'm not all about adding a new law for every little thing. But I do keep in mind that assholes are going to find loopholes, and that's where most of your absurd laws come from. People trying to plug loopholes.
I don't know about this haircut law you're talking about, but it sounds like a stupid law and should probably be removed.
That's an awful stretch for possibly capturing criminals...:rolleyes:It's also a possible/ probable infraction and fine because you were on your way home from work late, and the little light goes out. Cop pulls you over, hassles you for a bit, writes a ticket of some sort and you pay it. For what, a little light that's is of no consequence if it works or not, other than to possibly catch a criminal in a criminal act.
Anyway, no i didn't imply anything, i asked a question, and you assumed some things. That is all.
I didn't complain they broke into my trailer...i gave a factual first hand account of a law that was broken, despite the possible consequences. It's not laws that keep you safe, it's statistics. Simple math that puts you in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some might call it luck, or misfortune, but it's still all the same thing.
And yes, i do get that laws protect us from more crime, but i think, actually hope to get people to understand what actually keeps them safe. In the long run it will be yourself, especially if someone actually breaks into your home. You won't see police fast enough to save you if it resorts to violence...
Sandy Johnson
Harry Member
That's an awful stretch for possibly capturing criminals...:rolleyes:It's also a possible/ probable infraction and fine because you were on your way home from work late, and the little light goes out. Cop pulls you over, hassles you for a bit, writes a ticket of some sort and you pay it. For what, a little light that's is of no consequence if it works or not, other than to possibly catch a criminal in a criminal act.
Anyway, no i didn't imply anything, i asked a question, and you assumed some things. That is all.
I didn't complain they broke into my trailer...i gave a factual first hand account of a law that was broken, despite the possible consequences. It's not laws that keep you safe, it's statistics. Simple math that puts you in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some might call it luck, or misfortune, but it's still all the same thing.
And yes, i do get that laws protect us from more crime, but i think, actually hope to get people to understand what actually keeps them safe. In the long run it will be yourself, especially if someone actually breaks into your home. You won't see police fast enough to save you if it resorts to violence...
My point was a lot of perceived stupid laws are usually there to plug a loophole that criminals are exploiting. You didn't complain about your trailer getting broken into, you complained that if the thief did get caught, they would be back out in the streets in 18 months doing it again. I replied that a 3 strikes law would fix that real quick. We have one in California. Screw up 3 times and you're in jail for life.
And of course I can't depend on scary laws alone to stop criminals from doing me harm, but those laws combined with some common sense precautions works well.
Example: If there's a law preventing breaking and entering, I only have to make it hard enough to get into my house that a criminal thinks twice about the amount of time they would be exposed trying to enter and weigh their chances of getting caught in the act. If I do catch someone trying to get in, I can tell them that I "called the cops, they're on their way", and that's enough send most thieves running.
If there's no law, then my house needs to be an impenetrable fortress that can keep criminals out indefinitely, or at least until I get home and catch them in the act. And even then, I need to be able to stop them on my own rather than contacting law enforcement to assist me in removing them from the premises.
Basically, I'm safer if criminals are worried about the threat of incarceration when considering if they're going to break in or not.
Not bragging at all. And I used a hunting app, not Google. You illustrate my point, exactly. All it takes for these doughnut eaters is resolve. I was a public servant, Union, for two decades and I dont buy it. You can't force people to work over time over any extended period. You cant make funding issues an excuse for poor decisions and personal choices. You qualify and train and requalify at seven fucking yards or you do not. I dont know if you shoot or not, or if you shoot handgun or not. But once a month is not the end of life if it is training to protect your life. Funding is a weak excuse for poor job performance. You either have it, or you do not.
This is your sentence, your words that I responded to:
I was showing there is range space all over the place. I will add that the shooting time could be as little as 2 hours a month. No range fees, after work shooting. No funding issues. Most of us take some personal time for personal development in our careers. I don't accept, I won't accept professional people that we pay and trust with our lives to not keep their skill at a usable level.
Sterlingfire
ignant
You can tell a criminal in the act anything you want, you have no clue what he'll do with that information. He might kill you instead of running away. Breaking yet another law. Being prepared to defend you and yours is the only way to be safe in that situation, or run away yourself, but that will not likely turn out well.
I do like that you might be actually be starting to understand what my post meant. It has nothing to do with abolishing all laws, it has everything to do with your safety, and the fact that laws don't keep you safe. The fact that you said "basically safe" is tells me you're getting it. Criminals will do criminal things, in spite of laws. Those laws basically make criminals pull off their law breaking after dark for the most part. I honestly feel it's because 90% of the time the punishment does not fit the crime:rolleyes:It's not scary enough to stop criminal actions....
Provience
Kill!
my neighbor out here in WA knows several area LEO's that actually sell their Department Supplied 1 or 2 boxes of "training ammo" every month rather than use the supplied ammo at the free ranges to actually practice for an hour on their own time
the excuses run deep
bobbywalter
Numbskull Member
More dead offenders
Stuck
In Hell
- Joined
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- 1,813
Well youre dumb. LEOs can in fact be forced to work OT. In most cities towns whatever you ar at the needs of the service and the union cant do fuck all about it. As for the shooting many PDs are required to only qual once a year. As long as theyre maintaining the dept set qual standards the agency cant do shit about it. I dont agree with it but that is the way it is.
Many depts dont have a budget for any training ammo outside of their designated training or quals so officers have to buy their own. Some do some dont. I know some PDs make as little as 13 bucks an hour. If thats all I made I probably wouldnt waste it on training ammo either. Its not how I roll but whatever. I regularly shoot 1000rds a month between rifle and handgun not a lot by previous years but Ive never had an issue of staying within 95% of a perfect score.
I dont think that makes me "dumb". I think it means you live in Texas (?) and I am in CA. I do not think it is correct to make a statement that applies to all LEO Dept everywhere.
I was addressing Harry, and I think you focused on a part of that discussion. I said that his Sprekels guys could train more if they wanted to. No more no less. Still dont know if he was talking about County Sheriffs or Salinas PD or what (?). In CA I seriously doubt you could keep the Highway Patrol on extended OT. $13/hour is minimum wage and while you might actually find some employee that is paid that somewhere, that is a misleading and mostly irrelevant point. We could try and find what a 5 year veteran officer makes in an average american city, county and as a state employee. If we do that, we will find they are probably paid at least twice that TO START with benefits and pension. If I was a LEO that was paid $13/hour I would not work there to start. The LEO I know are required to have at least a 2-year college degree. Criminal justice AA degrees in both cases. Both doing quite well financially.Stuck
In Hell
- Joined
- May 20, 2020
- Member Number
- 424
- Messages
- 1,813
I dont think that makes me "dumb". I think it means you live in Texas (?) and I am in CA. I do not think it is correct to make a statement that applies to all LEO Dept everywhere.
Nope not in TX any longer. Ive worked with state and local PDs around the country and all are at the needs of the dept. They need you to work OT your working OT.
Some rural small town depts dont have the money to pay more and cover training costs. Most small depts dont require two year degrees. Since you did mention TX I know of several small town depts in STX where 5 year officers are making less than $15 an hour. At the same time there are 10-15 year no degree officers with very large depts clearing $200k a year. NYPD, HPD, BPD, LAPD, and LASD come to mind. I dont know of any that require just an AA. Its usually either a BA,BS or no degree required. There are also a lot of LEOs with advanced degrees, masters and even JDs. Of course most of them go federal.
I cant imagine doing police work for $15/hr even if it is in a small rural area where the $$ goes a lot further. That's bitch pay. I can check, havent spoken to the guy that made detective in quite some time regarding his academic quals. Globally, I am not in favor of defunding and police or LEO. Like any .gov agencies can often bring themselves to the lowest least efficient denominator. Wouldn't you agree that determination, motivation defines success more than funding ?? In this case proficiency with an issue handgun ? I appreciate that there is a lot more to good police work than simply being a qualified shooter. Lot's of training and that takes money no question.
Roc Doc
2A SNBI
Even then...I'm a pretty good but not great pistol shooter, mid-pack usually at any ameteur competition, but that's no guarantee I'd be able to hit shit in a two way gun battle or with all the other stress that goes along with being an LEO. Sims training is expensive and there's no way to train the thousands and thousands that need it to elite level operator status, that being said, and I know most PD's are training constantly in all aspects of the job, more training is better no doubt.
I suck with a pistol also. I was decent with a 9mm Norinco Tokarev of all things. One range guy even commented that 90% of the shooters couldn't do as good as my target. But that was $120 chicom junk and the interwebs said it was junk so I upgraded and lost the perfect fit and ergonomics of that weapon. I like to shoot but am watching ammo and supplies as a lot of stuff is really scarce here now. A casual comment is that in most shootings there is not return fire, there is no gun battle. The one shot in that incident in the Breanna case. But I can honestly say I don't know what it takes to decide when to shoot, when to shoot once, and when to mag dump. I just intake information and it is allover the place and it frequently takes months to get the real story, if ever. I do think LEO have to be made to change the way they apparently blast away at shit. It's been happening since the early 80;s when they got semi auto pistols along with other changes in response effort. When the criminals all got the same semi autos.
I have never heard a single recent incident where the words "Police Officer, Halt" than a warning shot in the air. That's what the Toldeo PD said to us in grade school in the auditorium, to the entire school. We grew up with that. The saying was " one shot, pop the balloon" then wait. Subsonic lead flat nose from a .38 special revolver. I know some, many ? few (?) situations that scenario is not realistic. But the shootings here in Sacramento in the last 5-7 years have all been one-way mass fusillade murders. I don't know how you train that out unless you fire 1/2 the staff, their supervisors and start over.
I also will agree that some LEO can be FORCED to work OT. That seems obvious in many scenarios like in St Louis, Portland or now in Philadelphia. I was just chuckling to myself at the Sac County Sheriffs and Sac PD fighting over who got OT to provide security a the Kings Basketball games, and the thought of our Highway Patrol . . .. .
I have never heard a single recent incident where the words "Police Officer, Halt" than a warning shot in the air. That's what the Toldeo PD said to us in grade school in the auditorium, to the entire school. We grew up with that. The saying was " one shot, pop the balloon" then wait. Subsonic lead flat nose from a .38 special revolver. I know some, many ? few (?) situations that scenario is not realistic. But the shootings here in Sacramento in the last 5-7 years have all been one-way mass fusillade murders. I don't know how you train that out unless you fire 1/2 the staff, their supervisors and start over.
I also will agree that some LEO can be FORCED to work OT. That seems obvious in many scenarios like in St Louis, Portland or now in Philadelphia. I was just chuckling to myself at the Sac County Sheriffs and Sac PD fighting over who got OT to provide security a the Kings Basketball games, and the thought of our Highway Patrol . . .. .