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Why have receiver hitches grown so large?

IowaOffRoad said:
https://www.automotive-fleet.com/fc_resources/pdf/j2807.pdf

arse_sidewards above you will find the testing criteria. I think you will find it to be more than a cooling package test.
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I know what the tests are. I'm saying that for anything made in the last 20yr the practical limitation that caps how much you can get rated for is how much power you can put down and if the vehicle in question is some shitbox or midsize SUV the cooling system will probably come into play.
 
arse_sidewards said:
I know what the tests are. I'm saying that for anything made in the last 20yr the practical limitation that caps how much you can get rated for is how much power you can put down and if the vehicle in question is some shitbox or midsize SUV the cooling system will probably come into play.
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I thought we were discussing pickups?That’s what I was referring to. Why bring up shitboxes and SUVs?
I believe it’s still the only industry standard anybody has attempted to comply with, and some manufacturers are. Are you implying there is some better way to measure that the industry agrees on? Or are you getting implying that nobody’s numbers are accurate? In that case I guess we just have to butt-dyno everything.
 
IowaOffRoad said:
I thought we were discussing pickups?That’s what I was referring to. Why bring up shitboxes and SUVs?
I believe it’s still the only industry standard anybody has attempted to comply with, and some manufacturers are. Are you implying there is some better way to measure that the industry agrees on? Or are you getting implying that nobody’s numbers are accurate? In that case I guess we just have to butt-dyno everything.
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I believe he's going after the fact that the test is only acceleration and braking.

They don't consider that the truck may well be trying to push the bump stops off the frame if it can still go and stop.

So you can tow 20k with a f250 or f450. The 250 will do it faster, the 450 will be much more stable. The 450 will also try and shake your kidneys loose until it has 5k+ over the rear axle while the 250 doesn't ride rough empty, it'll be a squirrelly butt clenching ride on the bump stops.
 
Chevy_man said:
I believe he's going after the fact that the test is only acceleration and braking.

They don't consider that the truck may well be trying to push the bump stops off the frame if it can still go and stop.

So you can tow 20k with a f250 or f450. The 250 will do it faster, the 450 will be much more stable. The 450 will also try and shake your kidneys loose until it has 5k+ over the rear axle while the 250 doesn't ride rough empty, it'll be a squirrelly butt clenching ride on the bump stops.
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They actually do take this into account. I'm not going to go through all 28 pages, but they have requirements that the truck be able to maintain level load with a trailer loaded to the target weight with the proper tongue/hitch weight, as well as trailer-sway control, up/down grade performance, and understeer while seeing certain g-force loads. There are other factors tested as well, including the ability for the materials used to stand up to the loads, but I don't think that's the real issue for most manufacturers.
Please, read the standard, and all the standards that it refers to, before dismissing this as hokum. Its more than just a start/stop test with a load.

There is a reason why the engineers from all the affected manufacturers developed the standard, and why the marketing departments don't want to adopt it. It is a voluntary standard after all, but it was developed with the input of industry engineers.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Speaking of hitches.

Anyone got a good suggestion on a decent adjustable hitch that has a 2" and 2 5/16", but also has a pintle? Oh, and isn't $350. :laughing:

I've found them in about every combination but what I want.
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This company used to make one, unfortunately it looks like they have sold that part of the business to curt and they have reproduced everything but the 2” & 2 5/16” combo. Bummer as I’ve been looking for one too.

 
'84 Bronco II said:
Why exactly is it "stupid?"

You can buy a new F150 with a higher tow rating than my 2000 F250 7.3L 6 speed, and stock for stock, I am sure it would out pull my old F250. They also have bigger brakes than my old F250, and frankly aren't a hell of a lot lighter. There is no reason a properly equipped modern 1/2 ton can't pull 10,000Lbs (which will get you a hell of a lot bigger 5th wheel than a 20').

Modern 1/2 tons are equivalent to 15-20 year old 3/4 tons these days. They weigh the same or more than my old IDI F250, they make more horse power and torque, they have bigger brakes, and their drivetrains are equal to or stronger than the drivetrain in that truck, so what's your hesitation to pull with a half ton? I agree that if you are pulling 10,000+Lbs on a daily basis, a 3/4 ton or larger truck will last longer and perform better, but most people only tow a few times a year with their personal trucks.


EDIT: As for the topic of this thread, obviously tow hitches and receivers had to grow to keep in step with the ridiculous tow ratings of modern trucks; although personally, I think towing anything over 10,000Lbs with a receiver hitch instead of a gooseneck or fifth wheel setup is stupid. Still, people using all these adapters and reducers is equally dumb. Just buy the correct size hitch for your receiver and be done with it. If you are commonly towing a bunch of different trailers, just buy one of those fancy adjustable height hitches with multiple ball sizes. If you are constantly having to swap out hitches, you are doing it wrong.
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The current tow ratings are the same thing as the diesel hp wars of the early/mid 2000’s. Everybody would tune their truck to make an extra 10hp and suddenly it was the “most powerful pickup on the market” until next year when the other brand did the same thing.

If anything, the older trucks were way under rated for what they could really do, as nobody was in a pissing match over it. I had a 2001 F-250 CCLB with the 7.3/ZF-6, a traction bar I built for it, and converted the warm up valve in the turbo to an exhaust brake. I pulled over 20k lbs of concrete on a triple axle gooseneck that probably weighed 6k lbs empty, never had a moment that raised my blood pressure.

Sorry, but a new F-150 isn’t doing that comfortably, factory ratings aside. I’ve driven them. Heck, an F-650 that’s rated to tow 33k lbs with a 180 hp Cummins probably wouldn’t pass the current tests with their acceleration metrics.

The factory towing tables should tell you how worthless they are just by looking at them. Any regular cab short bed truck is going to have a higher GVWR and towing capacity than a CCLB due to its lower curb weight and then using the same max capacity. Which would you rather put 20k behind, a 5500 lb truck with a 120” wheelbase, or a 7000 lb truck with a 170” wheelbase?
 
IowaOffRoad said:
They actually do take this into account. I'm not going to go through all 28 pages, but they have requirements that the truck be able to maintain level load with a trailer loaded to the target weight with the proper tongue/hitch weight, as well as trailer-sway control, up/down grade performance, and understeer while seeing certain g-force loads. There are other factors tested as well, including the ability for the materials used to stand up to the loads, but I don't think that's the real issue for most manufacturers.
Please, read the standard, and all the standards that it refers to, before dismissing this as hokum. Its more than just a start/stop test with a load.

There is a reason why the engineers from all the affected manufacturers developed the standard, and why the marketing departments don't want to adopt it. It is a voluntary standard after all, but it was developed with the input of industry engineers.
Click to expand...
Well that doesn’t appear to be the case with all the rear coil sprung Dodges I see running around on the bump stops with 10 bags on concrete in the bed. :flipoff2:

I‘ve put more in the back of my Land Rover, airbags for the win.
 
Gatorgrizz27 said:
This company used to make one, unfortunately it looks like they have sold that part of the business to curt and they have reproduced everything but the 2” & 2 5/16” combo. Bummer as I’ve been looking for one too.
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Now that I have the curt in my possession. I think I can make something to capture the ball.

I generally hate pintle/ball combos as they alow a lot of movement, but I don't own or know anyone who owns a pintle trailer, so I can deal with it for the once in a blue moon hookup.
 
total newb said:
Becuase the 3" are rated for the new much higher capacity trucks.
tow ratings, hp, trans, axles have all been steadily increasing. At some point they out class the ability of the secondary parts.
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It's funny/intellectual you say they outclass the ability of the secondary parts.
My factory 2017 F450 Platinum and King Ranch, (I'm a used car dealer), both came with the 3" receiver hitches rated at 30k.
I sold both of those and bought a 2015 single cab F450 XLT, fully loaded and even painted Tuxedo Black. (That last part doesn't matter...)
However, while searching for bumper pull hitches on Etrailer, I found the same thing you did.

*I'm sorry this is long winded but I wanted to show I was thorough and had some legitimate sense of what I was doing.

*THIS ALSO TIES INTO THE "Why are hitches bigger...


The most interesting point was the 5/8" pin. The last pin I bought was rated at 15k. There's a post in the thread I referenced that talks about the friction load on the receiver insert without a pin at all. (I'm not getting into that).
I found it interesting the pin was only rated at 15k though...

The hitches I found were rated at a certain point, (I settled on a Curt 20K, tongue weight 2,700 lbs).

And finally I chose the 2.5" shank B&W Tow & Stow (2" and 2 5/16" adjustable ball setup), that is only rated for 14,500 lbs GTW (gross towing weight).

So you try to piece together an aftermarket setup, only to find out that all the accessories that total newb talked about, are not adequate according to specs.

**If you go by "redneck specs," load that shit down and let her eat! If it doesn't work, please report to the "Big Dumb Load Thread"

***I am not a professional and I might have had influence when this was written. Cheers!
 
RHTrucks said:
It's funny/intellectual you say they outclass the ability of the secondary parts.
My factory 2017 F450 Platinum and King Ranch, (I'm a used car dealer), both came with the 3" receiver hitches rated at 30k.
I sold both of those and bought a 2015 single cab F450 XLT, fully loaded and even painted Tuxedo Black. (That last part doesn't matter...)
However, while searching for bumper pull hitches on Etrailer, I found the same thing you did.

*I'm sorry this is long winded but I wanted to show I was thorough and had some legitimate sense of what I was doing.

*THIS ALSO TIES INTO THE "Why are hitches bigger...


The most interesting point was the 5/8" pin. The last pin I bought was rated at 15k. There's a post in the thread I referenced that talks about the friction load on the receiver insert without a pin at all. (I'm not getting into that).
I found it interesting the pin was only rated at 15k though...

The hitches I found were rated at a certain point, (I settled on a Curt 20K, tongue weight 2,700 lbs).

And finally I chose the 2.5" shank B&W Tow & Stow (2" and 2 5/16" adjustable ball setup), that is only rated for 14,500 lbs GTW (gross towing weight).

So you try to piece together an aftermarket setup, only to find out that all the accessories that total newb talked about, are not adequate according to specs.

**If you go by "redneck specs," load that shit down and let her eat! If it doesn't work, please report to the "Big Dumb Load Thread"

***I am not a professional and I might have had influence when this was written. Cheers!
Click to expand...

I've noticed the 450/550 and 4500/5500s usually only have a 2.5" receiver.

Often those truck already have a lot of wieght in the bed and a lot more over hang, so I can see why they aren't rated as much in certain configurations.

That 2.5" B&W only rated at 14.5k is a joke though, my cheap 2" curt is rated at 14k and the gen y is rated at 16k iirc. The curt 2.5" is rated for 20k and gen y 21k.

B&w is all flash and no balls or what? :flipoff2:
 
[486] said:
if you're REALLY worried about the pin, leave the drawbar in the receiver for two winters straight
you'll tear the receiver out of the frame before you'll yank it out then, even if the pin happens to still be removable
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Not in most of the country :flipoff2:

I keep watching for my turn over ball to be stuck since I rarely use it. Of all the ones I've used, I only had to go under and give the ball a little tap one time.

#surf&ski :flipoff2:
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Not in most of the country :flipoff2:

I keep watching for my turn over ball to be stuck since I rarely use it. Of all the ones I've used, I only had to go under and give the ball a little tap one time.

#surf&ski :flipoff2:
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didn't you just move into the salt belt?
you gonna have some fun learning all about the suck
 
[486] said:
didn't you just move into the salt belt?
you gonna have some fun learning all about the suck
Click to expand...
I'm gonna enjoy lauging my ass off while he pisses away money torching perfectly good parts in half because he can't get them apart with a 3/8 socket set. :laughing:
 
arse_sidewards said:
I'm gonna enjoy lauging my ass off while he pisses away money torching perfectly good parts in half because he can't get them apart with a 3/8 socket set. :laughing:
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One of the reasons why I've been trying to fetch my vehicles from the southwest is this. I brought my 99 Dodge up here from AZ 7 years ago. I try to keep it clean and don't drive it a ton in the winter when I can avoid it. I can still take most things apart with a little panther piss and an open end wrench. It's nice.
 
IowaOffRoad said:
One of the reasons why I've been trying to fetch my vehicles from the southwest is this. I brought my 99 Dodge up here from AZ 7 years ago. I try to keep it clean and don't drive it a ton in the winter when I can avoid it. I can still take most things apart with a little panther piss and an open end wrench. It's nice.
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I got my Aerostar from a guy who got it from Texas. The most important thing it has taught me is that southerners who complain about working on cars are massive pussies.
 
[486] said:
didn't you just move into the salt belt?
you gonna have some fun learning all about the suck
Click to expand...
North ID? Hardly the Salt belt. I see tons of clean 60s, 70s and 80s rigs driving around all the time. Maybe not as dry as where I'm from, but nothing like where you guys are.
 
Not to derale this thread too much, but these pics were from a 2017 Jeep JK that gets winter driven. :shaking:

TpcPy6Bj3I5tHIA6akO8PPD0uw=w537-h953-no?authuser=0.jpg


KNWXtv6yixynIdDqyMHcqqKTHw=w537-h953-no?authuser=0.jpg
 
Wisconsinite said:
Not to derale this thread too much, but these pics were from a 2017 Jeep JK that gets winter driven. :shaking:
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How? I can't even.... was it found in bottom of Great Salt Lake, UT?

I see and work on a bunch of salty cars up north. The only ones I saw that bad was from the junkyard or a car that was sitting for YEARS, nothing come close to that JK especially for what only no more than 4 years old.
 
TrailTamer said:
How? I can't even.... was it found in bottom of Great Salt Lake, UT?

I see and work on a bunch of salty cars up north. The only ones I saw that bad was from the junkyard or a car that was sitting for YEARS, nothing come close to that JK especially for what only no more than 4 years old.
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The richer the area the more salt and chemicals go on the roads. They probably put a lot of highway miles on that Jeep and live somewhere that salts the shit out of everything.
 
oh, i know. I used to live where they dump 2" to 3" tall pile of salt while stopped at intersects in chicago suburbs.

and still doesn't explain how 2017 JK's parking brake shoes' linings disappeared
 
It was my ex girlfriends jeep. She ONLY drove it in the winter, because how else is she going to drive in the winter with out 4x4. I tried explaining that 95% of the population doesn't have a 4x4 for winter driving. Whatever though, not my money.

She lives in a suburb of Chicago. And it is insane the ammount of chemicals they put on the road down there.

The jeep needed brakes and only during the repair did I find out it needed rear axle seals. 7 of the 8 bearing retainer studs/nuts were so rusty that they spun in the plate, and I had to weld them in place to get the bearing retainers off. 8 of 8 caliper slides were seized to the point I had to use a torch to get them to free up.

The driver side was so wasted, I had to bolt the rotor to the axle flange, and BEAT the living hell out of it to remove the axle, because, you guessed it, the damn bearing race was rusted in the bore.

Sometimes I hate living her.:homer:
 
We have a 2006 Dodge 2500 long bed for a shop truck. Last spring we had to replace the bed of the truck, because a pallet fell through the bed, and was resting on a crossmemer. This is a 15 year old truck. Fuuuuuuu.
 
TrailTamer said:
How? I can't even.... was it found in bottom of Great Salt Lake, UT?

I see and work on a bunch of salty cars up north. The only ones I saw that bad was from the junkyard or a car that was sitting for YEARS, nothing come close to that JK especially for what only no more than 4 years old.
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totally normal for cars that get driven in the winter then parked outside for the humid swamp-ass summer without a good drive in the rain to clean out the salt
btw, underbody wash at the car wash is no match for a drive in the rain
 
[486] said:
totally normal for cars that get driven in the winter then parked outside for the humid swamp-ass summer without a good drive in the rain to clean out the salt
btw, underbody wash at the car wash is no match for a drive in the rain
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Especially if you can find some good puddles to drive through.

Aaron Z
 
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