The mormon stuff thread

[Tiha]

Lets focus on false prophecy, as stated in the bible.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Now lets look at Joeseph.

"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left, for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunger and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished, thereby perpetrated a foul and corroding blot upon the fair name of this great republic, the very thought of which would have caused the high-minded and patriotic framers of the Constitution of the United States to hide their faces with shame." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 394, May 1843)

On April 30, 1832, Joseph prophesied that a temple would be built in Independence, Missouri before the current generation passed away:

"4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house." (D&C 84: 4-5)

D&C 137:

[Joseph Smith:] "....I saw the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, who are now upon the earth, who hold the keys of this last ministry, in foreign lands, standing together in a circle, much fatigued, with their clothes tattered and their feet swollen, with their eyes cast downward, and Jesus standing in their midst, and they did not behold him. The Saviour looked upon them and wept.
"I also beheld Elder M'Lellin in the south, standing upon a hill, surrounded by a vast multitude, preaching to them, and a lame man standing before him supported by his crutches; he threw them down at his word and leaped as a hart, by the mighty power of God.
"Also, I saw Elder Brigham Young standing in a strange land, in the far south and west, in a desert place, upon a rock in the midst of a bout a dozen men of color, who appeared hostile. He was preaching to them in their own tongue, and the angel of God standing above his head with a drawn sword in his hand, protecting him, but he did not see it.
"And I finally saw the Twelve in the celestial kingdom of God. I also beheld the redemption of Zion and many things which the tongue of man cannot describe in full."

D&C 104:1 (1834)
"…I give unto you counsel and a commandment, concerning all the properties which belong to the order which I commanded to be organized and established, to be a united order, and an everlasting order for the benefit of my church, and for the salvation of men until I come…"

There are more.

 

[Cir20]

You think we are in very disimilar boats?

My wife is an ex mormon... ALL of her family is in the LDS church. You aren't the only one speaking from experience on the matter, nor are the other guys here who continue to skirt issues and dodge the bulk of the important questions because they are afraid to answer the questions directly.

And yeah... it's Mormon central. I have had endless discussions on the LDS faith. They, are at least forthright in their beliefs... unlike the few here who won't own the truth as they see it. Either because of deliberate misrepresentation, or just sheer embarrassment.

What questions haven't been answered directly?

 

[SanDiegoCJ]

Dodge the question all ya like... the answer is YES, LDS men believe they will be Gods.

Just own it.

You're a perfect example of the type of "christian" that turned me against the religion.

 

[Az Scooter]

Lets focus on false prophecy, as stated in the bible.

Deuteronomy 18:20-22
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Now lets look at Joeseph.

"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left, for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunger and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished, thereby perpetrated a foul and corroding blot upon the fair name of this great republic, the very thought of which would have caused the high-minded and patriotic framers of the Constitution of the United States to hide their faces with shame." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 394, May 1843)

On April 30, 1832, Joseph prophesied that a temple would be built in Independence, Missouri before the current generation passed away:

D&C 137:


D&C 104:1 (1834)
"…I give unto you counsel and a commandment, concerning all the properties which belong to the order which I commanded to be organized and established, to be a united order, and an everlasting order for the benefit of my church, and for the salvation of men until I come…"

There are more.

If you read D and C 137, you will know those verses are not there. Because of that, it makes your other posts suspect.

As for the United Order, it is probably similar to Moses when he received the commandments, came down and saw the Children of Israel worshipping a golden calf, trashed those commandments, then went back up to get the ten commandments. The saints at that time tried to live the United Order, but just were not ready for it, it is not the first time God has given a commandment and retracted it because the people ended up not being ready. I have my theories on why he would float a trial balloon, and then retract the law, but I am always allowed my own opinions.

As for the prophecy concerning Missouri, in Independence, (actually Far West) a temple had the corner stones laid. It’s construction was not completed. However, then there is also the point that the saints were never able to get established there, between the night raids, the rapes, murders, plunders of their farms, etc. So if, because of the local environment they were not able to build their temple. You also need to remember that Joseph was learning to be a prophet on the fly. He did not have a Tutor to help him learn like Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Elisha, or Samuel.

D and C 104 is interesting, because if you read it, instead of selectively edit, which was done here, you will note that God actually rescinded the order because of disobedience. There was a small contingent that continued for a time, even in Utah, but for the most part it was totally rescinded.

 

[Deleted Member]

What questions haven't been answered directly?

Do you believe you will be a God?

 

[Deleted Member]

You're a perfect example of the type of "christian" that turned me against the religion.

And you are the perfect example of not taking responsibility for someones own actions... You choosing not to believe in God is all on you. Not God, not other people. You.

 

[Pony_Driver]

I You also need to remember that Joseph was learning to be a prophet on the fly. He did not have a Tutor to help him learn like Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Elisha, or Samuel.

I'll skip the quoting of scriptures and ask you a question regarding Joseph Smith. Given his history of poor choices, horrible morals (He violated his solemn oath) and the fact that he was a thief, why do you defend him? Have you considered that he made the entire thing up?

 

[Filthy McChevy]

And you are the perfect example of not taking responsibility for someones own actions... You choosing not to believe in God is all on you. Not God, not other people. You.

And then?

 

[Cir20]

Do you believe you will be a God?

Yes. Well not me specifically because I can't say I believe in Mormonism, but if I still did, then yes.

Mormons do believe that there is a potential to become a God, not for everyone, only the best of the best. Here's some logic for it (not doctrine, just campfire logic)... We are God's spirit children, and one universal truth of all living things is that they grow to be the same thing as the parents that begat them. S'more logic for it... Eternity is a long time. It isn't so far fetched to believe we'll be spending that time in a god training program. And one more point of campfire logic, the universe is infinite, plenty of room for other worlds and creations.

As far as doctrine goes, I'm not well versed enough to start siting anything supporting or against it. One thing I'd like to add as someone who was raised Mormon, it doesn't get talked about much. It does come up from time to time, but it certainly is not a main focus of the religion. We don't show up at church and start talking about being gods and creating worlds. In my entire childhood of extremely regular church attendance, I would say it was only discussed in a class setting two or three times.

If you know of some bible doctrine that exposes this as blasphemy I'm all ears.

What other questions do you have that you feel have not been answered directly?

 

[SanDiegoCJ]

And you are the perfect example of not taking responsibility for someones own actions... You choosing not to believe in God is all on you. Not God, not other people. You.

That was some of the most twisted illogic I've ever seen anyone post.

 

[Deleted Member]

That was some of the most twisted illogic I've ever seen anyone post.

No... it's just common sense. You seem to have an affinity for playing the blame game. It's what you know, and at your ripe old age, probably won't change anytime soon.

The twisted part is you casting blame, becauase you just can't grasp the concept of yourself being at fault for your own shit.

 

[Deleted Member]

Yes. Well not me specifically because I can't say I believe in Mormonism, but if I still did, then yes.

Mormons do believe that there is a potential to become a God, not for everyone, only the best of the best. Here's some logic for it (not doctrine, just campfire logic)... We are God's spirit children, and one universal truth of all living things is that they grow to be the same thing as the parents that begat them. S'more logic for it... Eternity is a long time. It isn't so far fetched to believe we'll be spending that time in a god training program. And one more point of campfire logic, the universe is infinite, plenty of room for other worlds and creations.

As far as doctrine goes, I'm not well versed enough to start siting anything supporting or against it. One thing I'd like to add as someone who was raised Mormon, it doesn't get talked about much. It does come up from time to time, but it certainly is not a main focus of the religion. We don't show up at church and start talking about being gods and creating worlds. In my entire childhood of extremely regular church attendance, I would say it was only discussed in a class setting two or three times.

If you know of some bible doctrine that exposes this as blasphemy I'm all ears.

What other questions do you have that you feel have not been answered directly?

No other questions... that mormon belief pretty much sums up what I absolutely disagree with. We are the created, and will never be Gods.

This is the EXACT lie told to Eve. "We will have knowledge of good and evil and be like God". We aren't ever going to be a God, we're the created beings. Made. Created.

Luke 20: 35-36: "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more; for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."

 

[Cir20]

No other questions... that mormon belief pretty much sums up what I absolutely disagree with. We are the created, and will never be Gods.

This is the EXACT lie told to Eve. "We will have knowledge of good and evil and be like God". We aren't ever going to be a God, we're the created beings. Made. Created.

Luke 20: 35-36: "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more; for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."

Fair enough. I view discrepancies like that in religious belief as trivial but I see that it is monumental in your view. But that leads me to ask you something else if you don't mind.... I've taken the stance that many religions have truth and that God is pleased with all religions that get people closer to Him, despite discrepancies. You don't seem to agree with this; correct me if I'm wrong. If that's the case, are you of the opinion that the Mormon church was created (and still operating) by influence of the devil?

 

[Deleted Member]

Fair enough. I view discrepancies like that in religious belief as trivial but I see that it is monumental in your view. But that leads me to ask you something else if you don't mind.... I've taken the stance that many religions have truth and that God is pleased with all religions that get people closer to Him, despite discrepancies. You don't seem to agree with this; correct me if I'm wrong. If that's the case, are you of the opinion that the Mormon church was created (and still operating) by influence of the devil?

I am of the opinion that it was created by Joeseph Smith. I don't know what, if any, entity beyond Smiths twisted desires led him to do it. I honestly couldn't say. ANY man can be posessed or opressed. I don't believe the mormon faith was God inspired, if that's what you are getting at.

 

[Cir20]

I am of the opinion that it was created by Joeseph Smith. I don't know what, if any, entity beyond Smiths twisted desires led him to do it. I honestly couldn't say. ANY man can be posessed or opressed. I don't believe the mormon faith was God inspired, if that's what you are getting at.

I also think Joe Smith was a fraud. But do you think this would cause the Lord to withhold the blessing of his spirit from the members of the Mormon church? Isn't it possible that God still answers their prayers? Sends his love? Enlightens and guides? Isn't being Mormon better than being godless?

 

[Tiha]

If you read D and C 137, you will know those verses are not there. Because of that, it makes your other posts suspect.

This is because it was removed in 1976

In 1976, the 137th section of Doctrine and Covenants was submitted to the general conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a vote to be "sustained" as scripture. It is a narrative of a vision supposedly seen by Joseph in Kirtland, Ohio in 1836.

What the members who voted on this new addition to scripture were not told by "the Brethren," is that whole paragraphs (216 words) of the actual revelation as recorded in The History of the Church had been conveniently left out of the version to be included in the Doctrine and Covenants. The reason for these omissions was that four false prophecies were contained in the part of the revelation which was censored out. These were prophecies so obviously incorrect that even the average LDS reader would pick them up. Therefore they went down the "black hole" of Mormon history.

By biblical standards the Dude is a false prophet.
You don't want to believe that, and that is your choice. But all the information is out there for those that want to find it.

As for the United Order, it is probably similar to Moses when he received the commandments,

Probably? Is your scripture not clear enough to understand?

As for the prophecy concerning Missouri, in Independence, (actually Far West) a temple had the corner stones laid. It’s construction was not completed. However, then there is also the point that the saints were never able to get established there, between the night raids, the rapes, murders, plunders of their farms, etc. So if, because of the local environment they were not able to build their temple. You also need to remember that Joseph was learning to be a prophet on the fly. He did not have a Tutor to help him learn like Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Elisha, or Samuel.

So the God you believe in is not strong enough to protect his saints from rapes murders and plunders?
The God of the bible decimated enemies with seemingly impossible numbers. But not protect your saints?
God allowed his temple construction to fail?

Weak God

Learning to be a prophet? The words of a prophets came from God, there is no learning or tutoring. God has said repeatedly through the bible, I will give you the words to say. There is no trial and error. He did not allow mistakes.

D and C 104 is interesting, because if you read it, instead of selectively edit, which was done here, you will note that God actually rescinded the order because of disobedience.

The God of Abraham does not change his mind.

I would be happy to add bible vs to support all of that, but I don't get the feeling anyone cares.

Anyway I appreciate the conversation but the more I learn the less I can accept the Mormon God. He is not for me.

 

[SanDiegoCJ]

No... it's just common sense. You seem to have an affinity for playing the blame game. It's what you know, and at your ripe old age, probably won't change anytime soon.

The twisted part is you casting blame, becauase you just can't grasp the concept of yourself being at fault for your own shit.

Blame ? Nope, just stating facts. You're the one that twists stuff to fit your own preconceived notions so you can justify your bias.
That's why I stated that you're the type of "christian" that drove me away. I started looking at the nonsense you and your ilk spewed and
that got me to look deeper at the whole basis of the religion and I came to the realization it was all a bullshit story used to control people.

 

[Filthy McChevy]

So the God you believe in is not strong enough to protect his saints from rapes murders and plunders?
The God of the bible decimated enemies with seemingly impossible numbers. But not protect your saints?
God allowed his temple construction to fail?

Weak God

Same God that doesn't give a shit about kids dying of Cancer and/or National Institute of Health Directors promoting shitty protocols that kill people unnecessarily during a overblown "pandemic", right? Because suffering is part of the plan, didn't you write that elsewhere? Inconsistent much?

but I don't get the feeling anyone cares.

Yeah, the non strict believers don't care about your beliefs much or think they are better or more right than anyone elses. Especially the more strident the criticisms get. It's readily apparent who is more relaxed and comfortable in their own skin in these threads.

 

[Tiha]

Same God that doesn't give a shit about kids dying of Cancer and/or National Institute of Health Directors promoting shitty protocols that kill people unnecessarily during a overblown "pandemic", right? Because suffering is part of the plan, didn't you write that elsewhere? Inconsistent much?

Big difference between the "prophesied will of God" in constructing a temple vs sick and suffering.
Suffering is not part of any plan it is the result of sin/actions.

Yeah, the non strict believers don't care about your beliefs much or think they are better or more right than anyone elses. Especially the more strident the criticisms get. It's readily apparent who is more relaxed and comfortable in their own skin in these threads.

Yeah people don't like facts.

Just more proof I do not belong in this warm and fuzzy new world.

 

[Truckedup]

During my ongoing ordeal with one of the most lethal diseases, an angel has appeared to help through this.. I do not believe in the conventional images of God, never have belonged to any organized religion although I do understant people who do...
Don't believe in angels? You tell her that to her face and she wil send to right to the Grim Peaper...

 

[MuntCuffin]

All this confusion under the banner of Christianity, all started around the protestant schism. It was the actions of individuals within the church that helped contribute to that schism.

Personally, I don't see the squabbles between different sects of Christianity being solved until the one who took the Church as his bridegroom comes back and sets things right.

Looking at what the world is, I'd rather stand shoulder to shoulder with a Mormon than a tranny. As long as they can respect my faith and my beliefs, I can do the same. I'm a Catholic and I don't see anything ever changing that. But I realize how the actions of individuals within that catholic faith have led rise to the Lutheran church, the protestant churches, and even to Mormonism. Some actions of those within the catholic faith have even led to people falling away from Christ altogether. Repercussions of actions and all that.

Theres a time and a place for apologetics and defending your faith. Stirring up old disagreements and hard feelings on the eve of battle seems silly.

So what? Mormons are crazy. Lotta people believe that people of faith in general are crazy. So what?

We got Satan in our schools trying to pump kids heads full of sexualizing and chaos inducing wokeist tripe all wrapped up in a bow of "acceptance, equity, and being a loving person."

The same fuckin' chaos inducing tripe that says you can print enough money to get out of economic turmoil....

Better figure out what yer fightin'. Something tells me it ain't the Mormons.

 

[Az Scooter]

Big difference between the "prophesied will of God" in constructing a temple vs sick and suffering.
Suffering is not part of any plan it is the result of sin/actions.

Oh, you mean like rapes and murders? God has never been one to take away someones free will. That is part of the plan.

Yeah people don't like facts.

Just more proof I do not belong in this warm and fuzzy new world.

I love facts. I don’t like facts misstated, or lies. There are a lot of people that make a lot of money disproving the Mormon church. Have you ever stopped to wonder why?

 

[grumpy356]

So… accurate or not?

 

[grumpy356]

Post Mormone on TikTok

Mormons trying to make their religion sound normal (pt4) #exmormon #exmo #exlds #exchristian #exjw #comedy #fyp #fy

www.tiktok.com

 

[Az Scooter]

Oh my gosh! So many, things. Basically, people are entitled to their own beliefs. The first two are notpart of the doctrine of the church. The dinosaur is just plain nuts. I have heard the second, but there is no official doctrine. The third, yes, that is doctrine. It isn’t a suburb, but it is 80 miles from Kansas City.

Don’t worry, there are people that believe in a flat earth, that vaccines don’t work, and that oil is spontaneously produced by the earth.

 

[Az Scooter]

Tiha you have found an interesting site to use for information about the church. That is your right, but you really should check the truthfulness of the information, whether it is blatantly misquoting the bible, leading someone to believe that something is canon scripture, when it isn’t, or ignoring obvious things that contradict what they are trying to preach.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt. You are probably just trying to destroy another church. Just keep in mind, every church has beliefs outsiders would find crazy, but is the norm for them, even atheists can have crazy beliefs. It is all good, until there are personal attacks, or an attempt to humiliate,

 

[ProjectTwin]

Had some LDS kids come onto the property a month or two ago. They were here to see someone that lived here in the past and, once they learned that person no longer lived here, they turned their focus onto me.

We talked for a couple of hours.

Told them that religion is like real estate. Location, location, location is a primary factor as to why they believe what they do (if they were born in the middle easy they'd be Muslim) and how people that do drugs (LSD and shrooms) experience things that they say is an alternate part of our universe.

We talked about the time I died. When friends that are still here died or were in a coma, and how that plays with their religious beliefs. We talked about ghosts and such that I've experienced, and so on.

 

[Pony_Driver]

Had some LDS kids come onto the property a month or two ago. They were here to see someone that lived here in the past and, once they learned that person no longer lived here, they turned their focus onto me.

We talked for a couple of hours.

Told them that religion is like real estate. Location, location, location is a primary factor as to why they believe what they do (if they were born in the middle easy they'd be Muslim) and how people that do drugs (LSD and shrooms) experience things that they say is an alternate part of our universe.

We talked about the time I died. When friends that are still here died or were in a coma, and how that plays with their religious beliefs. We talked about ghosts and such that I've experienced, and so on.

I'd drink a beverage with you and talk about all of that stuff.

 

[Tiha]

Tiha you have found an interesting site to use for information about the church. That is your right, but you really should check the truthfulness of the information, whether it is blatantly misquoting the bible, leading someone to believe that something is canon scripture, when it isn’t, or ignoring obvious things that contradict what they are trying to preach.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt. You are probably just trying to destroy another church. Just keep in mind, every church has beliefs outsiders would find crazy, but is the norm for them, even atheists can have crazy beliefs. It is all good, until there are personal attacks, or an attempt to humiliate,

I am not trying to destroy anything, just looking for truth.

There are still so many unanswered questions even in this thread. I am begging people to post up and show answers, I quote stuff so we all can read it and discuss the same thing, interpret it together.

It is a fact that Joseph Smith has failed prophecies. It is also a fact that the bible says failed prophecies is the exact definition of a false prophet. Does that discount the whole LDS belief system? I have no idea because nobody will answer any questions.

Just like looking all the different bible translations I didn't just pull information on LDS from one website, or two, or probably even a dozen because yes there are so many people out there trying to destroy any and every institution of faith.

I have always said I believe that people will be saved from every denomination and religion because, just like the bible tells us, we cannot know and only God can see a man's heart.

The bible also warns us many times of false prophets leading people astray and that If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

I know I sound like a hate monger, and sorry, but I am just trying to learn and it seems all to often people can't just say "I don't know" But rather they say "you are wrong" and just walk away without pointing out where the statement was wrong and supporting it in any way.

In my belief and understanding of the bible, I am not just trying to save my soul but all of yours as well by seeking, sharing, answers and truth.

Though it may be pleasant living on the earth with people of LDS and maybe they are making the world a better place, along with many other belief systems and religions, that doesn't mean they are saved and will receive eternal life.

The bible says there are no participation trophies after death. Only winners and losers.

But if we cannot agree on the bible then we really have no basis or foundation for rational discussion.

 

[Az Scooter]

I am not trying to destroy anything, just looking for truth.

There are still so many unanswered questions even in this thread. I am begging people to post up and show answers, I quote stuff so we all can read it and discuss the same thing, interpret it together.

It is a fact that Joseph Smith has failed prophecies. It is also a fact that the bible says failed prophecies is the exact definition of a false prophet. Does that discount the whole LDS belief system? I have no idea because nobody will answer any questions.

Just like looking all the different bible translations I didn't just pull information on LDS from one website, or two, or probably even a dozen because yes there are so many people out there trying to destroy any and every institution of faith.

I have always said I believe that people will be saved from every denomination and religion because, just like the bible tells us, we cannot know and only God can see a man's heart.

The bible also warns us many times of false prophets leading people astray and that If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

I know I sound like a hate monger, and sorry, but I am just trying to learn and it seems all to often people can't just say "I don't know" But rather they say "you are wrong" and just walk away without pointing out where the statement was wrong and supporting it in any way.

In my belief and understanding of the bible, I am not just trying to save my soul but all of yours as well by seeking, sharing, answers and truth.

Though it may be pleasant living on the earth with people of LDS and maybe they are making the world a better place, along with many other belief systems and religions, that doesn't mean they are saved and will receive eternal life.

The bible says there are no participation trophies after death. Only winners and losers.

But if we cannot agree on the bible then we really have no basis or foundation for rational discussion.

It is not the Bible I disagree with. I disagree with your using it as a weapon, and using misinterpretations, consistently. Literally, you have interpreted something that was a polar opposite to what the Bible said, multiple times. I also think there are plenty of bad interpretations by translators, either by design to make a more valid point, or by accident, just by translating in error. Translating is never easy. I have done it, and one person translation, reading the same document might be totally different from another persons. It is very subjective. That you will not acknowledge that, is super interesting to me, but if you are not legitimately fluent in another language, it would be hard to understand. By the way, you not wanting to accept an answer, does not mean it is not the correct answer.
Don’t forget, God also said « By their works, ye shall know them »