Teach me PA Systems - Conference Room, Community Center?

[Roc Doc]

These work really well for smaller systems -

Modular Amplifiers V35/V60/V100/V150/V250

Bogen's Power Vector modular input amplifier series consists of five models, ranging from 35- to

www.bogen.com

Just add the modules you need based on inputs and its the mixer and amp all in one. You can do a remote master volume and a mute override for a Microphone to take over against the other inputs. They just work

Shure makes a version of that mixer he posted before, the SCM-810 Automixer, and it will mute the channels that are not being used, then the gate will open as a channel sees input. Great for use with people that have bad mic technique.

 

[kf4zht]

Shure makes a version of that mixer he posted before, the SCM-810 Automixer, and it will mute the channels that are not being used, then the gate will open as a channel sees input. Great for use with people that have bad mic technique.

Yeah, the self mute on the Bogen is decent but not perfect. It takes a good bit of work to teach C levels how to use a microphone switch.

The only think with the shure is its 2 boxes. Mixer and separate amp. The bogen is one box and the priority make really basic programming on an paging override easy. But it does limit you a good bit.

For better systems I like the Atlas Atmosphere. Lots of easy flexibility and easy inputs if you want Bluetooth or plug ins based on area. But given the op already has a laughable budget it wont work here

 

[SomeGuy]

Yeah, the self mute on the Bogen is decent but not perfect. It takes a good bit of work to teach C levels how to use a microphone switch.

The only think with the shure is its 2 boxes. Mixer and separate amp. The bogen is one box and the priority make really basic programming on an paging override easy. But it does limit you a good bit.

For better systems I like the Atlas Atmosphere. Lots of easy flexibility and easy inputs if you want Bluetooth or plug ins based on area. But given the op already has a laughable budget it wont work here

Screw it, just get the guy a damn Yamaha Rivage with Dugan automixer ffs.

 

[kf4zht]

Screw it, just get the guy a damn Yamaha Rivage with Dugan automixer ffs.

Lol

Always cracks me up the differences between live sound/production guys and low voltage/commercial AV and how they approach the same setup. Live sound wants more knobs, more options, more flexibility. On the Low Voltage side we are like "Can you offer it with a lock on the knobs so the idiots can't touch it"

Just had it in one of our big conference spaces. Step 1 on the setup directions - Check the microphone batteries. One mic had low batteries mid meeting so the clear solution was to start randomly twisting the knobs in the cabinet to fix it.

 

[Lee]

I can literally say, SomeGuy talked me into purchasing that Shure SCM800.

I found a Samson Servo 200 on Marketplace about 3 hours north of me. Ad stated it was on eBay too. Found the eBay ad priced a good bit higher than the Marketplace ad, and offered him $10 less than his Marketplace ad. They accepted and they $26 shipping is less than I could have driven there and back for.

So I have a mixer and an amp secured, and am a little under $150 spent so far.

VCA for remote control of the volume out of the SCM800 has been my latest rabbit hole. The manual for the SCM800 specifically recommends a RDL ST-VCA1 Stick-On Voltage Controlled Amplifier with a 0 to 10K potentiometer. The RDL ST-VCA1 seems to be discontinued but I have found a few still for sale new and used.

 

[SomeGuy]

Lol

Always cracks me up the differences between live sound/production guys and low voltage/commercial AV and how they approach the same setup. Live sound wants more knobs, more options, more flexibility. On the Low Voltage side we are like "Can you offer it with a lock on the knobs so the idiots can't touch it"

Just had it in one of our big conference spaces. Step 1 on the setup directions - Check the microphone batteries. One mic had low batteries mid meeting so the clear solution was to start randomly twisting the knobs in the cabinet to fix it.

But that's why things like Q-Sys and Crestron and such exist...for the install side, you lock all the actual stuff away in a locked rack in a closet and put friendly graphical touch screens in the room with controls that even dummies can't hurt anything and can slam hard limiters and aggressive EQ's to prevent feedback and blown speakers.

 

[kf4zht]

But that's why things like Q-Sys and Crestron and such exist...for the install side, you lock all the actual stuff away in a locked rack in a closet and put friendly graphical touch screens in the room with controls that even dummies can't hurt anything and can slam hard limiters and aggressive EQ's to prevent feedback and blown speakers.

Crestron exists to make money on service calls. We stopped selling it, so many unsatisfied customers. Unless they have a clear picture of how it should work and everyone at the client wants the same thing it turns into a mess

Didn't help when their products were un-obtainable for 2 years

 

[SomeGuy]

Crestron exists to make money on service calls. We stopped selling it, so many unsatisfied customers. Unless they have a clear picture of how it should work and everyone at the client wants the same thing it turns into a mess

Didn't help when their products were un-obtainable for 2 years

I hate every Crestron system I've used lol but Q-Sys is pretty frickin' awesome....I've thought about grabbing a core nano for my HT stuff in the basement when it's done, expensive, but could be fun.

 

[Roc Doc]

Crestron exists to make money on service calls. We stopped selling it, so many unsatisfied customers. Unless they have a clear picture of how it should work and everyone at the client wants the same thing it turns into a mess

Didn't help when their products were un-obtainable for 2 years

What was the other one that came out about the same time, DMX? (I know DMX is a lighting protocal, but IIRC there was a line of IR controllers, we used them in the high roller suites).

Had good luck with Creston, it didn't hurt that the rep was local.

 

[gladman]

What was the other one that came out about the same time, DMX? (I know DMX is a lighting protocal, but IIRC there was a line of IR controllers, we used them in the high roller suites).

Had good luck with Creston, it didn't hurt that the rep was local.

we have one for our main board meetings and it has been great.

 

[87manche]

Crestron exists to make money on service calls. We stopped selling it, so many unsatisfied customers. Unless they have a clear picture of how it should work and everyone at the client wants the same thing it turns into a mess

Didn't help when their products were un-obtainable for 2 years

do you still have the distributorship and can you get commercial lighting things?
I have a grow in vegas with a bunch of crestron lighting panels and they're a PITA to get anyone to quote me a price or just fucking sell me replacements.
the local distributor is a fucking joke, but of course nobody will go outside their market because daddy crestron tells them not to.

now a man such as yourself that doesn't really give two fucks.......

 

[kf4zht]

do you still have the distributorship and can you get commercial lighting things?
I have a grow in vegas with a bunch of crestron lighting panels and they're a PITA to get anyone to quote me a price or just fucking sell me replacements.
the local distributor is a fucking joke, but of course nobody will go outside their market because daddy crestron tells them not to.

now a man such as yourself that doesn't really give two fucks.......

Not anymore. That company shut down a while back and the new one we've avoided it. I'll ask around, I know a few guys still in the game

 

[Lee]

So if it wasn't already obvious, I don't understand this "pro" audio stuff. Here's a stupid question.

The SCM800 mixer I bought has a 3 pin Euro/Phoenix block Line Output. I've been working under the assumption that's a balanced stereo out, is that right or is it mono out? My Googlefu hasn't been successful in finding a concrete answer.

I'd like to use the Samson Servo 200 in stereo with 4 speakers, at first, if that's good enough, there's no need in getting more speakers, another amp, or messing with wiring the series and parallel groups to satisfy the amps' bridged needs. I realize that 4 bookshelf speakers probably isn't enough in most of your opinions, but the old system was loud enough to hear when everyone stopped talking, and you found the sweet spot to hold the mic to not have feedback. Though the feedback was pretty good at getting the crowd's attention.

So the Servo 200 want's a balanced input into both 1/4" plugs for stereo. The image says Servo 300, but it's the same manual for the 200, 300, and 600.

Can I just wire a pair of balanced 1/4" male plugs to the screw terminals on a Phoenix block, and call it a day?

If it turns out I bought a mono out only mixer, anyone want to buy a Shure SCM800?

 

[Lee]

Basically 2 of these and make my own Y cable from the mixer to the left and right of the amp?

 

[Lee]

Or do I need something like this?

STD 600 - RDL®

600 Ω Operation Combine Audio Signals to a Single Output Filter RF from an Audio Line Combine Stereo Signals Feed a Mono Signal to Stereo Inputs Combine Multiple Mics to a Single Amp Compactness of RDL STICK-ONs®

rdlnet.com

Starting to wish I'd got something like that Rolls with the L and R 1/4" outs. Is it too soon to have buyers remorse when I haven't even gotten the thing yet?

 

[SomeGuy]

The Shure is mono...microphones are ALL mono, so that isn't a problem. If you have a stereo source, just do a simple mono-sum first. It's not like you'll ever get proper stereo imaging in a room like that unless every location is covered by the pair of speakers (need to hear both to be stereo) and even then there will still be a small sweet spot.

Almost all pro stuff is what's known as "balanced" and uses 3 wires, not just 2 like unbalanced home stuff. + and - are an inverse of each other, the same signal, and is used to cancel out noise over long distance runs (when the inverse is put back together, noise will have impacted them inversely and cancel just the noise out effectively), and the third wire is a reference to ground. You can technically wire just + and ground to get an unbalanced signal in and be fine for short run wires.

On the output side, just daiy chain the stuff together.


Oh, and since you'll probably blame me for this, don't, the thing will still work for mixing together signals...and it has some nice features like high pass and limiters built in (I read the manual the other day) which you won't find in every cheap line mixer. Mono is fine, even HUGE concerts (we're talking tay tay levels) sometimes run mono mixes.

 

[Lee]

The Shure is mono...microphones are ALL mono, so that isn't a problem. If you have a stereo source, just do a simple mono-sum first. It's not like you'll ever get proper stereo imaging in a room like that unless every location is covered by the pair of speakers (need to hear both to be stereo) and even then there will still be a small sweet spot.

Almost all pro stuff is what's known as "balanced" and uses 3 wires, not just 2 like unbalanced home stuff. + and - are an inverse of each other, the same signal, and is used to cancel out noise over long distance runs (when the inverse is put back together, noise will have impacted them inversely and cancel just the noise out effectively), and the third wire is a reference to ground. You can technically wire just + and ground to get an unbalanced signal in and be fine for short run wires.

On the output side, just daiy chain the stuff together.


Oh, and since you'll probably blame me for this, don't, the thing will still work for mixing together signals...and it has some nice features like high pass and limiters built in (I read the manual the other day) which you won't find in every cheap line mixer. Mono is fine, even HUGE concerts (we're talking tay tay levels) sometimes run mono mixes.

I'm kind of all over the place with my stream of consciousnesses fueled ignorance, so really there's no one to blame here but you.

So if I plug a Bluetooth receiver into the Aux-in it's going to come out mono too? Do I need to do the sum thing for it, or is that handled internally in the mixer if I just plug a stereo source into the Aux-in?

From the manual, "AUX INPUT ¼-inch Phone Jack: Mixes external auxiliary- or line-level sources, i.e., tape recorders, into output. Signal appears at output of all linked mixers."


I understand the difficulty and perhapse even futility of attempting stereo sound in the space, but have pictured the L & R channels on the S & N walls of the building respectively since first imagining this scheme, and coming to the realization that I no longer seem to have that option has me rethinking some things.

If stereo is out the window, I can just run a single 1/4" into channel 1 on the amp, set it to bridged, and run full power to 2x 8 Ohm speakers in series on each side of the room.

Coming from car audio and home theater stuff, this whole saga has been much more of an education than I would have ever imagined. Thanks again for putting up with all of my newb questions!


Also I've found a cheap Shure SCM262...

 

[jeeptj19992001]

All you need

 

[45acp]

Yea, for what you want/need there is no reason at all to have stereo anything.

 

[Roc Doc]

e, even HUGE concerts (we're talking tay tay levels) sometimes run mono mixes.

Again, Dave Natale is currently mixing The Stones in mono.

 

[SomeGuy]

I'm kind of all over the place with my stream of consciousnesses fueled ignorance, so really there's no one to blame here but you.

So if I plug a Bluetooth receiver into the Aux-in it's going to come out mono too? Do I need to do the sum thing for it, or is that handled internally in the mixer if I just plug a stereo source into the Aux-in?

From the manual, "AUX INPUT ¼-inch Phone Jack: Mixes external auxiliary- or line-level sources, i.e., tape recorders, into output. Signal appears at output of all linked mixers."


I understand the difficulty and perhapse even futility of attempting stereo sound in the space, but have pictured the L & R channels on the S & N walls of the building respectively since first imagining this scheme, and coming to the realization that I no longer seem to have that option has me rethinking some things.

If stereo is out the window, I can just run a single 1/4" into channel 1 on the amp, set it to bridged, and run full power to 2x 8 Ohm speakers in series on each side of the room.

Coming from car audio and home theater stuff, this whole saga has been much more of an education than I would have ever imagined. Thanks again for putting up with all of my newb questions!


Also I've found a cheap Shure SCM262...

If you plug a 1/4" TRS connector into anything on that, it will assume it's balanced, not stereo, and will sound a little funky. A cable like the Digiflex NKP-6 or similar can do mono summing for you in the cable.

Like I said, that SCM800, worst case resell it for $100 and use the profits to get something else....or hold on to it and gives you a great way to get a bunch more mic inputs if you get a real mixer someday.

 

[fordguy]

$500????

TRASHY PA

what

the

fuck

???

 

[Lee]

Again, Dave Natale is currently mixing The Stones in mono.

I hear this in my head in the frustrated/annoyed, educator tone of James May's voice every time I read it.

 

[Lee]

What are the chances this is counterfeit? Says open box but it's 1/3 the price of new.

NEW Shure BLX288/PG58 Handheld Wireless Microphone System | eBay

BLX Wireless Systems combine professional-quality sound with simple setup and an intuitive interface for legendary audio performance right out of the box. 8 pcs 3' Feet Professional XLR Microphone Cable (Male To Female) us new.

www.ebay.com

 

[Lee]

Is any of this worth getting?

Based on the asset tag, I believe this came out of one of the lecture halls at one of the colleges.

It's being sent to M&R (state is selling it) later this month. My lab at work is basically in the warehouse that is the hub for all of our branches within the system to send stuff to M&R. It's usually just filing cabinets, desks, and broken office chairs. We occasionally get something cool like this. I walk by junk like this all the time, this just caught my eye because I've been thinking I need to go to M&R to look for a 12U rack. I've probably walked by this a dozen times and never noticed it before now.

If it goes to M&R I can possibly buy it. If I can get to it quick enough and they don't price it too high. It may be high-end enough that they want to send it to auction though.

It also might be junk and not work. I don't know why it is being sent to M&R?

I talked to one of the warehouse managers on his way out the door after work, he saw me taking pictures of it. Told him what I wanted it for, he said it may be possible to just transfer it to our Community Center. I will look into that Monday.

 

[Lee]

They've got this big thing heading to M&R too. It's kind of buried and has a mostly solid back panel on it so I'm not sure what all is behind those mesh panels. I see a Blu-ray player a couple mixers, that Lowell thing is some kind of power distribution and/or conditioner I think, that AMX NetLix NI-3100 is some fancy source switch, but I'm not sure if the touch screen controller is with it or not, and the Tesira Forte avb thing is a "Digital Signal Processor."

 

[Lee]

Here's the humble start to my DJ career so far. I just need a turntable, disco ball, smoke machine, and lasers!

Shure SCM800, Samson Servo 200, Mid Atlantic surge protector, and a pair of Micca Mb42 speakers.

The speakers are an experiment. They get pretty high praise on the Reddit and YouTubes for cheap, compact, Chinese speakers. I got them cheap enough off eBay that if they're an unmitigated failure I'm not out much. If they work okay, I'll probably wind up with at least 2 more. Bose 21s are on my list to try if these suck, as they're also abundant and cheap on the 2nd hand market.

Speaking of eBay, I have looked at countless ads for microphones, mostly sticking with Shure, Samson, and Sennheiser. I got an email offer for a good enough discount on a Samson Concert 288 receiver and pair of microphones that I bit. I've got wireless mics covered now.

I got a 1Mii Pro Bluetooth receiver of eBay too, and have a sundry of cables, and cable ends in my shopping cart on Amazon to hook this contraption together.

 

[Lee]

Hooked a Shure SM48 into the Aux port on the mixer, used a terminal block to make a quick and dirty Y to split the output to a pair of 1/4" TRS jacks, and wired the speakers in "stereo." With just the 2 speakers I don't have the appropriate Ohms to bridge the amps output.

It was a quick and dirty test with some old leftover Phoenix Gold speaker wire from an early '00s component kit.

There's a persistent hiss though, I was hoping it's just my hack wiring job, but, I've had the amp hooked up to the Shure mixer and direct to a Pixel phone, balanced input from the Shure and unbalanced from the phone, right side is good, but the left side doesn't work correctly, constant hiss, and very muffled sound. Swapped speakers from left to right, and wiring from left to right just to make sure. Pretty sure the left amp is junk. eBay seller said they only tested that it powered on in the ad, they had a few of these, maybe they'll exchange it. 🤞

Test was promising. It gets pretty darn loud with just the 1 good speaker and an alleged 100W to it. With both amps working, I think it'll do the job.

I've got some shielded wire coming on the slow boat from China, I'll make a good cable from the mixer to the amp. In the mean time I think I'll get 2 more of the Micca speakers.

 

[SomeGuy]

What are the chances this is counterfeit? Says open box but it's 1/3 the price of new.

NEW Shure BLX288/PG58 Handheld Wireless Microphone System | eBay

BLX Wireless Systems combine professional-quality sound with simple setup and an intuitive interface for legendary audio performance right out of the box. 8 pcs 3' Feet Professional XLR Microphone Cable (Male To Female) us new.

www.ebay.com

I've seen some of these go pretty cheap in the used market. The BLX stuff is fine, I have a couple channels of it, no issues really if you're only running a couple at a time and not in a busy area. The PG series mics are a whole lot of meh, usually high handling noise compared to the SM or Beta series mics, but otherwise sound fine for speech.


As for the rest of that rack gear you posted, no idea what most of it is....for $50 I'd grab it even just for rack/hardware but for say $500 I'd pass.

 

[Lee]

I've seen some of these go pretty cheap in the used market. The BLX stuff is fine, I have a couple channels of it, no issues really if you're only running a couple at a time and not in a busy area. The PG series mics are a whole lot of meh, usually high handling noise compared to the SM or Beta series mics, but otherwise sound fine for speech.


As for the rest of that rack gear you posted, no idea what most of it is....for $50 I'd grab it even just for rack/hardware but for say $500 I'd pass.

You'll probably turn your nose up at it, but I snagged one of these for ~$160 with tax and shipping.

Concert 288 Handheld Wireless System | Samson

Take the worry out of wireless with the Concert 288 handheld wireless system. Offering easy setup, flawless operation and premium sound, it's the ideal high-performance UHF wireless solution.

samsontech.com