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Teach me PA Systems - Conference Room, Community Center?

Lee

Guild of Calamitous Intent
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I'm often "the IT guy" for the little unincorporated community I grew up in. I did the surveillance system in the library a few years ago, and didn't know much about surveillance systems before then. I guess I'm the guy that's willing to learn and do, not that I actually already know.

The PA system in the Community Center sucks. I opened my mouth, and now I have a new job. Originally I was pushing them towards a portable system, I've got a nice rechargeable Samson 8" single speaker PA with Bluetooth and support for 2 microphones at work.

Then I found out that after the new roof goes on, starting next week, they're putting in a drop ceiling. Seems a perfect opportunity for some in-ceiling speakers, and maybe a projector mount. Part of the revenue to keep the lights on is renting the space, and even in rural Podunk nowhere, the place is booked pretty much every weekend. With better amenities they could maybe charge more, or charge a tech fee for using the sound system and projector.

It's a ~2800 sqf building, just one big room with a kitchen on one end. ~10' ceilings. Plenty of room in the storage room for a rack mounted A/V setup. We will eventually have internet at the Community Center, as there's Fiber at the library 1/4 mile away, looking at a Ubiquity Lightbeam or similar bridge to get it to from the Library to the Community Center.

I'm getting off topic.

Focus for now is in-ceiling speakers, probably 4x pairs. I don't necessarily need independently addressable zones, but that seems to be more common among amplifiers for this kind of stuff.

I've pretty well made up my mind on either the Dayton or Monoprice 6.5" speakers, unless I come across a great deal on something better.

I need to get audio to them, specifically a microphone, and I don't want to worry about feedback from the microphone being used in the room the speakers are in.

Would be awesome to get this done for as close to $500 as I can, I know that's wishful thinking short of used equipment, but I'm not opposed to used equipment.

Rockville's options are appealing. I don't need each zone to have its own source, will probably have to lock the thing behind a fine expanded metal or plexiglass to keep folks from pushing buttons. The remote is nice, but I'd have to tether it to the wall and use an IR blaster/repeater. A wired remote with wall mount would be more ideal.

2522203__13801.1710147132.jpg


While that Rockville has a pair of mic inputs, I'd rather it have built in wireless receivers for at least 2 microphones.

I avoid Pyle just as a blanket rule from my misspent youth as a car audio bass head. However, they've got cheap options, no way that's 600W for $80 though.


61NQYVibw6L._AC_SL1500_.jpg



While this is Pyle, this is pretty appealing specs wise.

71oqXR9cTKL._AC_SL1500_.jpg




So something like one of those amps, and something like this for microphones.


61dq1gTr9ML._AC_SL1500_.jpg



I'd prefer rack mounted stuff, but it's not necessary. I can make most stuff rack mounted with a little scrap metal. We probably don't really need 2x wireless microphones, just one wireless and one wired on a stand or on the lectern. We're not producing albums or bringing in big name entertainers, we're conducting business meetings and politicians are shaking babies and kissing hands. Family reunions, wedding/baby showers, birthday parties renting the space might want to play a video or listen to some music, but I'm not planning on this being audiophile, eargasm, audio. The place has got '70s wood paneling on the walls, no acoustic treatment at all, it's going to be harsh and echoy.

I'm open to suggestions? Am I on the right track? Is that Rockville stuff "good enough?" Anyone have any PA equipment they want to donate or sell really cheap to an awesome little community?
 
All I got is that it's worth the money to go to good mics like Shur. The cheap ones are the ones that you generally either can't hear or are feeding back.


Pyle stuff is complete garbage, but it can fit the bill for the space if you actually only need 30w, and you can glue the volume knob to keep people from cranking it and blowing it's guts out.
 
First you have to define intended usage.

Is it just for meetings where you might have a podium mic and maybe a couple table-top mics?
Will it be used for movie night?
Will it be used for a band?
Will the room be sub-divided at some point?

$500 is wildly under what is needed for a decent commercial system.
 
First you have to define intended usage.

Is it just for meetings where you might have a podium mic and maybe a couple table-top mics?
Will it be used for movie night?
Will it be used for a band?
Will the room be sub-divided at some point?

$500 is wildly under what is needed for a decent commercial system.

Considering the current system is an unknown vintage, Radio Shack 20W PA amp and microphone with a pair of Pyle bookshelf speakers stretched to either end of the room and wired with dual conductor brown "speaker wire" with no way to tell polarity (literally a 50/50 shot of wiring the speakers up correctly) that gets set up and taken down before and after each meeting, so there's NO PA system outside of official business. I'd say pretty much anything close to $500 is going to be exponentially better.

$500 is what's been donated and/or promised for the new system, half of that is from me.

First and foremost will be a lectern mic and maybe a handheld mic.

No band, if there's ever a band they can bring their own gear.

Movie night won't happen until there's a projector, but I could see there being potential. We had my parent's anniversary party there a few years ago, I brought in my own projector for a photo slide show. There's always a shower, anniversary, and even an occasional wedding reception there any given weekend, so a projector would be a great addition. I could see a birthday party, 4-H club, or similar having a movie night in the future.

The room can be subdivided, basically in 1/2, it used to also be the volunteer fire station, they'd wheel the fire engines out and open the partition for community events. They built a stand-alone fire station 20+ years ago and the garage doors on the Community Center have been enclosed in/walled off. The partition walls probably haven't moved since then. I really wish the walls didn't exist, as they are big 2x6 framed, '70s paneling, doors, one on each side that swing out from the wall to divide the building. With the partitions open, there's basically 2 walls between the storage room where I want the A/V rack to live and the wall I'd like to have pass throughs for video, audio, and Ethernet.

I'm not trying to do Las Vegas sound staging here, just need to have reliable, loud enough sound, to get ~200 folk's attention during the annual fish fry and/or Thanksgiving potluck.
 
I’ve got a 4ch amp hooked to 4 cheap 5.1 home theater speakers in a 30x30 room at work and it works great for monthly comms meeting with about 150 people.

I’d say what you have picked out would be fine for a budget setup.
 
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After looking at entirely too much of this stuff, I'm leaning towards this:


61KpbGmU6BL._AC_SL1500_.jpg


A 4 pack of these:


715sXDvC3qL._AC_SL1500_.jpg



And a bunch of Monoprice 14ga speaker wire.


Should be able to snag a 6U server cabinet or similar from the state M&R warehouse for cheap.


If/when we add a projector, I'll look into a cheap 5.1 receiver, a switch to change sources and use these 4 speakers as fronts and surrounds, add an in-wall center behind a screen, and a powered subwoofer. Would rather the receiver handle video input switching anyway.

That should get them living in the year 2000.

e97h76i7nux71.jpg
 
Measure the longest speaker wire run you have and cut them all that length. Just roll up the extra in the attic. It will cut down on echos due to wire length.
 
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$500 won't buy anything, even one of my shittiest PA speakers (QSC CP8) or one of my shitty wireless mics (Shure BLX) costs basically that much.

There's two ways to go about this though, one is commercial install style with Q-Sys or Crestron or a similar system which can get dummy proofed with a bunch of presets on a wall control, and the other is with an actual PA system with mains, mixer, racks and stacks, etc.

Avoid Rockville, avoid amazon crap actually. Start at places like sweetwater or full compass or american musical or zzsounds or similar.

I can't help much more at your budget than telling you not to waste the money on cheap crap, it'll be blown/broken in the first month.
 
What's the room dimensions (main open area without kitchen)?

Even good ceiling speakers sound like ass. It's a location thing. To get a clear unmuffled voice you're gonna need a bunch of them turned down vs. 4 of them turned up. Roc Doc can explain the science stuff behind it... I don't know any of the technical stuff I just know I'm right.

:laughing:
 
After looking at entirely too much of this stuff, I'm leaning towards this:


61KpbGmU6BL._AC_SL1500_.jpg


A 4 pack of these:


715sXDvC3qL._AC_SL1500_.jpg



And a bunch of Monoprice 14ga speaker wire.


Should be able to snag a 6U server cabinet or similar from the state M&R warehouse for cheap.


If/when we add a projector, I'll look into a cheap 5.1 receiver, a switch to change sources and use these 4 speakers as fronts and surrounds, add an in-wall center behind a screen, and a powered subwoofer. Would rather the receiver handle video input switching anyway.

That should get them living in the year 2000.

e97h76i7nux71.jpg


I'd stay away from the integrated wireless in the amp. You're stuck with whatever frequency or protocol they use, and likely won't be around when the inevitably fail and you need more.

Get the most basic dumb amp you can and spend as much as you can on separate wireless mics. Even if you have to run more wired to start with and try to get $$ or donations to buy better quality ones down the road. There's a whole lot of headache that comes with using cheaper wireless gear.
 
$500 won't buy anything, even one of my shittiest PA speakers (QSC CP8) or one of my shitty wireless mics (Shure BLX) costs basically that much.

There's two ways to go about this though, one is commercial install style with Q-Sys or Crestron or a similar system which can get dummy proofed with a bunch of presets on a wall control, and the other is with an actual PA system with mains, mixer, racks and stacks, etc.

Avoid Rockville, avoid amazon crap actually. Start at places like sweetwater or full compass or american musical or zzsounds or similar.

I can't help much more at your budget than telling you not to waste the money on cheap crap, it'll be blown/broken in the first month.

$500 buy's a heck of a lot more than what we've currently go. I figured Rockville is about on par with Pyle, Dual, Boss, and the like I don't have grand expectations. I've not been avoiding Amazon because Prime & Points. What I have been doing is looking at stuff on B&H and then searching Amazon to compare prices. B&H is actually cheaper on occasion.

Technical Pro? This has more features and channels than we'd ever need.

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I probably like this the best of any I've looked at. There's some on eBay around 1/2 this price and a couple lower powered versions too.


71x3467Z8HL._AC_SL1500_.jpg
 
What's the room dimensions (main open area without kitchen)?

Even good ceiling speakers sound like ass. It's a location thing. To get a clear unmuffled voice you're gonna need a bunch of them turned down vs. 4 of them turned up. Roc Doc can explain the science stuff behind it... I don't know any of the technical stuff I just know I'm right.

:laughing:

~76x36' footprint with the Google Maps' measuring tape, kitchen probably takes up 12' of that 76' on one end. Area for speakers is something like 64x32' with a 10' ceiling. It's a lot easier to find affordable 4 and 8 ohm in-ceiling speakers, more 8 than 4. If I add more, go to say 8 speakers instead of 4, I'll need to run 4 Ohm speakers in series pairs to keep most of these amps I've been looking at happy.

I'd stay away from the integrated wireless in the amp. You're stuck with whatever frequency or protocol they use, and likely won't be around when the inevitably fail and you need more.

Get the most basic dumb amp you can and spend as much as you can on separate wireless mics. Even if you have to run more wired to start with and try to get $$ or donations to buy better quality ones down the road. There's a whole lot of headache that comes with using cheaper wireless gear.

How about a compromise and instead of the the most expensive mics I can get, I go with something like this. Samson has treated me well, I've got one of their powered portable PA speakers with a handheld and a lapel microphone at work I use for outdoor presentations at field days and for research tour groups. Our A/V folks in our communications department have been recommending their stuff to the counties for similar use.


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For $500 I would probably see what is sitting in on the pawn shop from Peavey or behringer or samson or whoever for an amplified mixer and whatever cheap speakers they have. Buy a couple of SM58 knockoffs and run wired for a while. Buy a cheap expander/compressor if they have one sitting there.
 
Y'all just won't let me by Chineseium all-in-ones will you? :shaking::laughing:

How about a pair of these? There's a few in the $100-130 range on eBay.

41P4BxNasaL.jpg


Bridge 4x speakers to each amp, parallel 2x pairs of 8 Ohm series, should be 8 Ohms total at the amp, and get "full power" from the each amp and give me 8 speakers instead of 4.

That Samnson wireless microphone I linked above into a pair of those?

So would I use a Y splitter from the wireless microphone into each amp, or do I need some kind of "mixer?" All I want for the microphones is clear enough, loud enough, and no feedback. I don't care about mixing audio, instruments, reverb, echo, or any of that other nonsense.

That'd be $350-ish on amps and mics.
 
8 8ohm speakers on 2 channels can be 8ohms per channel.

8+8 parallel = 4ohms.... wire that in series to another parallel pair and you've got 4 speakers on a channel running 8ohms.
 
And 4 ceiling speakers in a 30x60ish area with 10ft ceiling is going to have hot spots and dead zones. Everyone standing in a 10ft circle under 1 speaker is going to hear it fine and everyone outside the circle isn't going to hear it very good.

Think of it like a 30x60 wall, with a crowd all standing no more than 5ft from the wall.
 
8 8ohm speakers on 2 channels can be 8ohms per channel.

8+8 parallel = 4ohms.... wire that in series to another parallel pair and you've got 4 speakers on a channel running 8ohms.

That's what I said, or tried to, maybe not as eloquently as you with your fancy math symbols. :flipoff2:


The 200 is about the same price 2nd hand as the 120, how about a pair of these 200s instead?


s-l1600.jpg


Now how do I get audio to them? Is an XLR to 2x male 1/4" Y cable going to do it? XLR out of the balance out of the microphone receiver to one of the balance inputs on each amp? I can just use one input channel on each amp right? Or do I need some kind of XLR to 4x 1/4" male contraption, or another piece of hardware?


61nlw-5D9lL._SL1500_.jpg
 
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How about a compromise and instead of the the most expensive mics I can get, I go with something like this. Samson has treated me well, I've got one of their powered portable PA speakers with a handheld and a lapel microphone at work I use for outdoor presentations at field days and for research tour groups. Our A/V folks in our communications department have been recommending their stuff to the counties for similar use.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...s200hh_d_stage_200_dual_channel_handheld.html
1462446273_1249591.jpg

I bet that would be way better than the integrated stuff you posted earlier. And easier to upgrade or replace later if they fail.

Y'all just won't let me by Chineseium all-in-ones will you? :shaking::laughing:

How about a pair of these? There's a few in the $100-130 range on eBay.

41P4BxNasaL.jpg


Bridge 4x speakers to each amp, parallel 2x pairs of 8 Ohm series, should be 8 Ohms total at the amp, and get "full power" from the each amp and give me 8 speakers instead of 4.

That Samnson wireless microphone I linked above into a pair of those?

So would I use a Y splitter from the wireless microphone into each amp, or do I need some kind of "mixer?" All I want for the microphones is clear enough, loud enough, and no feedback. I don't care about mixing audio, instruments, reverb, echo, or any of that other nonsense.

That'd be $350-ish on amps and mics.

You'd want a mixer....and a way to lock the amp out so people can't come in and crank it up to 11 and blow out all the speakers. Set your mixer to max and then run the amps up to the highest/safest level you'd ever need them. That way when they crank the mixer up all the way, they can't exceed the max level you've set for the amp/speakers.
 
You need a mixer, you can't Y cable mics into the amps directly. Mics output at a lower level than line level, so they need the gain of a preamp in a mixer to get them up to the correct level.
 
Will something like this work?


81IH4-qEq0L._AC_SL1500_.jpg



I plan on having everything in a locked cabinet, I could have this mounted outside of the cabinet or with the knobs protruding so that they're the only thing anyone without a key can mess with.

You're going to want XLR on almost everything....one or two RCAs wouldn't hurt for something like a laptop or phone connection, but you'll be far better off converting TO xlr for those vs. what you have there would require converting your mics and what not from XLR to RCA.
 
Measure the longest speaker wire run you have and cut them all that length. Just roll up the extra in the attic. It will cut down on echos due to wire length.
That is unnecessary. Electricity travels at near the speed of light, in a 2800 sqft room you'll never hear the delay.
 
weve been buying the jbl all in one systems that also use a battery (8 hours without plugging in) you can link them together too (so you can have a big system.) I'd get 4 of them. you can run a mixer with them or just one microphone. I wouldn't put speakers in ceilings and do all that wiring, use portable, extensible systems.... if you are gonna invest, invest in good projection, like an 8k system and have that setup with an apple tv so you can beam to it and connect to your speaker system.
 
weve been buying the jbl all in one systems that also use a battery (8 hours without plugging in) you can link them together too (so you can have a big system.) I'd get 4 of them. you can run a mixer with them or just one microphone. I wouldn't put speakers in ceilings and do all that wiring, use portable, extensible systems.... if you are gonna invest, invest in good projection, like an 8k system and have that setup with an apple tv so you can beam to it and connect to your speaker system.
No thanks.

I'd rather have the hardwired speakers and just upgrade and replace components as time necessitates instead of being locked into JBL's or anyone else's ecosystem.

Those would have a much greater chance of mysteriously walking away too.
 
Will something like this work?


81IH4-qEq0L._AC_SL1500_.jpg



I plan on having everything in a locked cabinet, I could have this mounted outside of the cabinet or with the knobs protruding so that they're the only thing anyone without a key can mess with.

That's a line mixer and just one mic input...would it work? sorta...but is it ideal? no.

Start looking used and I'm sure you could find better bang for your buck. Brand names like Allen & Heath, Yamaha, Soundcraft, Mackie, even Behringer...same with speakers, used JBL, Yamaha, QSC, RCF, and so forth. Find powered speakers and then you don't have to worry as much about things like matching amps or limiting or whatnot. Skip the in ceiling speakers, they won't produce any bass at all and will just rattle and I've never heard a really nice sounding in ceiling system. A couple of 8" or 10" 2 ways wall mounted at one end (where the screen would be) will sound better and cover just fine.

Something cheap, I'd do a couple Yamaha DBR10's and a Behringer Flow 8 mixer...throw in a channel or two of Shure BLX or Sennheiser XSW and you're doing ok. Add in a few cables and wall mounts and whatnot and you'll be sitting around $2000 for something completely respectable:

1720297836556.png
 
First of all you should be running 70v speakers not voicecoil impedance (4 or 8ohm), this will allow you to put more speakers per channel, which you'll need, like 45ACP said, you're not going to get even coverage with 8 6.5" speakers. There are calculators for figuring out coverage patterns, and remember that people are absorbtive, so if it sounds good empty, that will change when the blood bags are in the room.

If I was doing it, I'd use wired microphones until funds freed up for RF.
 
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