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Tapping large quantity of holes in overhead steel.

bgaidan said:
Looks like there's a special chuck for taps. Still a jacobs style grip but it has a square drive hole that actually turns the tap.

1648854153133.png
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It’s just a typical drill chuck. You don’t need a square drive on a drill to tap holes. I’ve done a shit ton from 1/8” up to over an inch with drills and no problems at all. Pre drill with the proper sized drill bit and go to town. Thick metal may require forward reverse a time or more.

Thread tapping wax or paste is your friend and cleaner then using oil.
 
has anyone tried one of these tap holders in a 1/4" hex drive cordless impact?


i feel like they would loosen over time when reversing.

We tap thousands of 1/4-20 holes in 12ga SS with spiral point taps in a cordless drill. the guys set the clutch to slip instead of bread the tap, and have very few issues. We have been buying Rigid cordless tool sets and are trying to use the drill to drill holes and the impact to tap...might have to do a $40 experiment.
 
Landslide said:
It’s just a typical drill chuck. You don’t need a square drive on a drill to tap holes. I’ve done a shit ton from 1/8” up to over an inch with drills and no problems at all. Pre drill with the proper sized drill bit and go to town. Thick metal may require forward reverse a time or more.

Thread tapping wax or paste is your friend and cleaner then using oil.
Click to expand...
I'll look into the tapping wax, we usually go in dry because of the finishes in the room.

In my experience taps are so hard that the chuck jaws don't grip them well. In one sense that is good because if the chuck is slipping the tap is not breaking. The dedicated tapping drills I am looking at in this thread use clutch (champion) or motor control (matebo) to provide that slip.

As I stated in the OP my guys can and will tap with their drills, I am looking to invest in tools that make the process easier, faster, or more consistent.

And yes, to all of those that asked, we always use the correct good quality 5/16" drill when tapping 3/8"-16 and use good quality US made taps.

Looking into thread forming taps as a few suggested
 
jeepnmatt said:
has anyone tried one of these tap holders in a 1/4" hex drive cordless impact?


i feel like they would loosen over time when reversing.

We tap thousands of 1/4-20 holes in 12ga SS with spiral point taps in a cordless drill. the guys set the clutch to slip instead of bread the tap, and have very few issues. We have been buying Rigid cordless tool sets and are trying to use the drill to drill holes and the impact to tap...might have to do a $40 experiment.
Click to expand...
Might also look at drill taps, we use them frequently at work with 1/8" pre drilled holes for 10-32 screws in control panels.
Drill bit in a cordless drill and a tap in a cordless impact.
1649191488863.png


Aaron Z
 
Landslide said:
It’s just a typical drill chuck. You don’t need a square drive on a drill to tap holes. I’ve done a shit ton from 1/8” up to over an inch with drills and no problems at all. Pre drill with the proper sized drill bit and go to town. Thick metal may require forward reverse a time or more.

Thread tapping wax or paste is your friend and cleaner then using oil.
Click to expand...

What typical drill chuck has a square drive hole for a tap at the bottom?

Pretty much universally accepted that you don't grip hardened tools with hardened jaws. i.e.: hardened jacobs chuck jaws on a hardened tap. Sure, it'll work for the occasional home game use, but for production it'll fuck up the jaws. There's a reason why tap drivers and holder all drive from the square shank.

jeepnmatt said:
has anyone tried one of these tap holders in a 1/4" hex drive cordless impact?


i feel like they would loosen over time when reversing.

We tap thousands of 1/4-20 holes in 12ga SS with spiral point taps in a cordless drill. the guys set the clutch to slip instead of bread the tap, and have very few issues. We have been buying Rigid cordless tool sets and are trying to use the drill to drill holes and the impact to tap...might have to do a $40 experiment.
Click to expand...

I'd go with the lisle sockets over those.

More pieces to fit the same range of taps, but way better quality, IMO. I don't like that style of jaws that are on the irwins.
 
The nice thing about the Lisle sockets is that they don't grip the tap tightly. A little slop from the hex adapter and some from the socket lets the tap self align to some degree. Not as much as the swivel on the tapper but it does help.
 
MigGunslinger said:
I'll look into the tapping wax, we usually go in dry because of the finishes in the room.

In my experience taps are so hard that the chuck jaws don't grip them well. In one sense that is good because if the chuck is slipping the tap is not breaking. The dedicated tapping drills I am looking at in this thread use clutch (champion) or motor control (matebo) to provide that slip.

As I stated in the OP my guys can and will tap with their drills, I am looking to invest in tools that make the process easier, faster, or more consistent.

And yes, to all of those that asked, we always use the correct good quality 5/16" drill when tapping 3/8"-16 and use good quality US made taps.

Looking into thread forming taps as a few suggested
Click to expand...
Spiral flute taps for your job will be your friend.

I’ll post up the wax we used at a manufacturing Buisness I worked at several years ago.

As long as your guys know what they’re doing (which sounds like it) regular HD cordless drills work find and no issues. Pretty much all we used and we did a lot of 3/8 threads.

Bigger stuff I used a big Milwaukee mag drill and feathered the forward/reverse plus it had verible speed.

We never used any special tapping tools and only time I did them by hand was when in difficult areas to reach.
 
78bronco460 said:
I’d just get the hilti gun and shoot stud pins into the steel.

X-EW6H Threaded studs - Threaded studs & standoffs - Hilti USA

Hilti Threaded studs & standoffs - X-EW6H Threaded studs - Carbon steel threaded stud for use with powder actuated nailers on steel (8 mm washer)
www.hilti.com www.hilti.com
Click to expand...

Even better, use a stud welder. These things are the shit for putting studs onto metal. We commonly shot 3/8 weld studs that will break before breaking lose. Can pop each one on in about 20 seconds.

Stud Welding Products & Systems | STANLEY® Engineered Fastening

STANLEY® Engineered Fastening offers Stud welding systems, the fast & reliable solutions for automotive, construction, and industrial stud welding product needs.
www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com
 
Duc said:
Even better, use a stud welder. These things are the shit for putting studs onto metal. We commonly shot 3/8 weld studs that will break before breaking lose. Can pop each one on in about 20 seconds.

Stud Welding Products & Systems | STANLEY® Engineered Fastening

STANLEY® Engineered Fastening offers Stud welding systems, the fast & reliable solutions for automotive, construction, and industrial stud welding product needs.
www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com
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That seems awesome. Too bad even the cheap import machines start around a $1k.
 
arse_sidewards said:
That seems awesome. Too bad even the cheap import machines start around a $1k.
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That's a deal, considering there will never be a broken tap, worn drill, etc...ever again.

After having been in business for myself for a year now, I've learned that up front investments that I would have previously ruled out that save time are worth 5 times what I would have normally not been willing to spend.
 
bgaidan said:
What typical drill chuck has a square drive hole for a tap at the bottom?

Pretty much universally accepted that you don't grip hardened tools with hardened jaws. i.e.: hardened jacobs chuck jaws on a hardened tap. Sure, it'll work for the occasional home game use, but for production it'll fuck up the jaws. There's a reason why tap drivers and holder all drive from the square shank.



I'd go with the lisle sockets over those.

More pieces to fit the same range of taps, but way better quality, IMO. I don't like that style of jaws that are on the irwins.
Click to expand...
I don’t know if any square tap chuck on a drill but I’ve used a 3/8” socket adapter for tap sockets in a drill and still do.

FYI, wether it’s good on a drill chuck or not (never experienced chuck failure from using taps in it) but I wasn’t talking home owner use. It’s from the four year experience I have working in a fabrication manufacturing Buisness building robotic products for most well known businesses out there like Tesla, AB, GM and Toyota etc etc. all we used there to tap holes was with cordless drills and no special tap drivers. I’ve tapped 1,000’s of holes in a large drill press with no tapper head along with other employees. A large majority of holes tapped with cordless drills or the big Milwaukee mag drill we’re made by the waterjet table I programmed and ran.

Point being, there are other ways to do it and they may not meet whatever standards you have in your mind.
 
Landslide said:
I don’t know if any square tap chuck on a drill but I’ve used a 3/8” socket adapter for tap sockets in a drill and still do.

FYI, wether it’s good on a drill chuck or not (never experienced chuck failure from using taps in it) but I wasn’t talking home owner use. It’s from the four year experience I have working in a fabrication manufacturing Buisness building robotic products for most well known businesses out there like Tesla, AB, GM and Toyota etc etc. all we used there to tap holes was with cordless drills and no special tap drivers. I’ve tapped 1,000’s of holes in a large drill press with no tapper head along with other employees. A large majority of holes tapped with cordless drills or the big Milwaukee mag drill we’re made by the waterjet table I programmed and ran.

Point being, there are other ways to do it and they may not meet whatever standards you have in your mind.
Click to expand...

Just because you've done it that way, doesn't make it right.


Again, there's a reason there have been tools designed specifically for taps for probably over a century. There's a reason they sell tap holders and collets for milling machines, cnc machines and even your drill press. There's a reason it's not advised to chuck hardened tools in a drill chuck with hardened jaws. And there's a reason your advices sucks for OPs situation.
 
Lbhsbz said:
That's a deal, considering there will never be a broken tap, worn drill, etc...ever again.

After having been in business for myself for a year now, I've learned that up front investments that I would have previously ruled out that save time are worth 5 times what I would have normally not been willing to spend.
Click to expand...
Sure, I see the value in a production environment where you are turning a bunch of monkeys who DGAF loose on a bunch steel and expecting stuff attached to that steel at the end of the day.

I don't see it being worth it for someone like me who's manually welding studs or tapping holes order to have a place to bolt petty things. Would I use it? Yeah. Would it improve the fit and finish or overall niceness of some of the things I make? Also yeah. Would I use it enough to justify the expense? Not sure.

It's definitely on my radar of something to buy if I can find a used on cheap though.
 
The stud welding and powder actuated stud guns are cool. I don't think the studs themselves are long enough in these systems but they are on my radar now for sure.
 
jeepnmatt said:
has anyone tried one of these tap holders in a 1/4" hex drive cordless impact?


i feel like they would loosen over time when reversing.

We tap thousands of 1/4-20 holes in 12ga SS with spiral point taps in a cordless drill. the guys set the clutch to slip instead of bread the tap, and have very few issues. We have been buying Rigid cordless tool sets and are trying to use the drill to drill holes and the impact to tap...might have to do a $40 experiment.
Click to expand...


They're OK, kind of bulky.

I got a set these and love them:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002SRFOE/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_7?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

Screen Shot 2022-04-06 at 9.10.10 AM.png



Used them with a cordless impact in one of our latest vids to tap out the bedliner overspray in holes:

Starting at 0:47 in:



Oh noes... the horror of it all....Somebody in the comment section got all freaked out we were showing people to use a tap with power tools. :lmao::lmao::lmao:
 
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Duc said:
Even better, use a stud welder. These things are the shit for putting studs onto metal. We commonly shot 3/8 weld studs that will break before breaking lose. Can pop each one on in about 20 seconds.

Stud Welding Products & Systems | STANLEY® Engineered Fastening

STANLEY® Engineered Fastening offers Stud welding systems, the fast & reliable solutions for automotive, construction, and industrial stud welding product needs.
www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com
Click to expand...
That’s a great idea for new construction. I have the impression this work is being done in finished areas (medical?) and welding studs would require hot work permits, firewatch, sprinkler systems disabled, etc.
Exam lights can be a bitch.
 
78bronco460 said:
That’s a great idea for new construction. I have the impression this work is being done in finished areas (medical?) and welding studs would require hot work permits, firewatch, sprinkler systems disabled, etc.
Exam lights can be a bitch.
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The work could be either new construction or remodel but either way yes all of those things would be needed for stud welding. many of my contractors require a HWP for using an angle grinder on site:lmao:

Not to mention hauling a bulky expensive machine to a job site and possibly special power requirements that do not come out of a spider box. The process is cool though.

The product is not limited to medical, in fact, almost every commercial building ever made or that will ever be made needs them. Only some get fancy and want to hang them from the ceiling. Ironically though medical and high end offices are most likely to get fancy.
 
bgaidan said:
Just because you've done it that way, doesn't make it right.


Again, there's a reason there have been tools designed specifically for taps for probably over a century. There's a reason they sell tap holders and collets for milling machines, cnc machines and even your drill press. There's a reason it's not advised to chuck hardened tools in a drill chuck with hardened jaws. And there's a reason your advices sucks for OPs situation.
Click to expand...
You may not agree with how they do it at the robotics fabrication business I worked at and no reason to get your panties in a wad over it. The company I worked at was a very large business that Toyota bought about a year before I left. It was not a backyard hack fab shop

The methods we used flat out works. Sure there’s times for special tools and I’m not against that. We used the hell out of our flexarm tapping air tool with tap chucks for it. But when you have to tap large items or sheet materials a standard ole cordless drill and a tap chucked up in it just works with no issues. We used Milwaukee cordless drills and they held up fine for what it’s worth.
 
78bronco460 said:
That’s a great idea for new construction. I have the impression this work is being done in finished areas (medical?) and welding studs would require hot work permits, firewatch, sprinkler systems disabled, etc.
Exam lights can be a bitch.
Click to expand...
Done it in a medical building. The stud welder does not set off fire system. Very little smoke
 
Is there any reason you can't just use a beam clamp? The mechanical guys go through them by the truck load, 3/8" is super common
 
Fullsizeyota said:
Is there any reason you can't just use a beam clamp? The mechanical guys go through them by the truck load, 3/8" is super common
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Max 3/4" hole through finished sheetrock to install was a constraint listed at the beginning of the thread.
Doesn't want to install before sheetrock as the mudders will fill the threads with mud.

Aaron Z
 
aczlan said:
Max 3/4" hole through finished sheetrock to install was a constraint listed at the beginning of the thread.
Doesn't want to install before sheetrock as the mudders will fill the threads with mud.

Aaron Z
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I know a thread like this is always going to bring out alternate ideas and opinions, that is a good thing. If they don't work or are not applicable to my situation they may be to someone else searching the topic.

I also feel like I have not explained fully all of the issues we ran into installing the fasteners before sheetrock. Yes, the mudders covered the threads, sometimes they removed bolts entirely or bent them / fucked the threads. Yes, we could back charge the other sub and make up for the time lost fixing all of the issues plus hope the wiry apprentice does not fall through the ceiling. I hate working like that, I want to get in get out and get paid, not dick around for weeks with some PE fresh out of Chico State's CM program that likes to act tough over email. There are also other practical reasons for drilling after finish is up, there is some leeway in locating the components and adjustability in the system but If the bolts are already in and a wall gets an extra layer of rock for fire rating or something we are locked in to what we did in rough.

Bottom line is we have 20 year employees doing this stuff every day and those guys agree that best practice is to drill and tap after sheetrock goes up so it's my job to make sure they have what they need to do it right and just maybe make it faster / better / more consistent with a whiz bang new tool.
 
aczlan said:
Max 3/4" hole through finished sheetrock to install was a constraint listed at the beginning of the thread.
Doesn't want to install before sheetrock as the mudders will fill the threads with mud.

Aaron Z
Click to expand...
I saw the stud welder and powder tool comments weren't immediately discounted so I figured the 3/4" hole comment was a little loose.

Im a independent distributor that deals a lot with steel erectors and fastening pan deck down to beam and joists.

I have not dealt with thus issue first hand (yet) but I have heard more than a few stories about joists and beam having hard spots in them due to the steel recycling process. I've heard first hand accounts of engineers going on site and confirming steel hardness of a member and having it wildly exceed the specification on one end and barely meeting spec on the other.

I can go into it further if it matters

Just something to keep in mind. You could be hitting hard spots in the beam which is causing taps to fail, although I think the tap drill is much better than just a cordless drill
 
Ok tech time, the Metabo drill came in and it came with 2 chucks that have 2 steps of squares inside with the model numbers on the chucks I was able to find info on them:

Futuro Plus quick-change threaded drill chuck H 1 R+L, M4-M6, "Quick" (627235000)
Clamping width: 1.5-8 mm; chuck with square holder 3.5 mm for M4 and 5.0 mm for M6
4-6.jpg



Futuro Plus quick-change threaded drill chuck H 1 R+L, M8-M12 "Quick" (627237000)
Clamping width: 1.5-13 mm, chuck with square holder 6.0 mm for M8 and 8.1 mm for M10 and M12
8-12.jpg


Long story short the largest square size seems to fit a 3/8-16 tap ok

Trying to find out standard square size for taps is a rabbit hole all it's own it seems.

The battery and charger don't show up until tomorrow so no opinion on how it works for now.
 
Just checked about a half dozen random different brand of 3/8" taps I have laying around. They're all dead on 7.20mm or .285". An M10 measured right at 7.98mm.


Not an ideal fit, but I suspect it'll work fine.
 
bgaidan said:
Just checked about a half dozen random different brand of 3/8" taps I have laying around. They're all dead on 7.20mm or .285". An M10 measured right at 7.98mm.


Not an ideal fit, but I suspect it'll work fine.
Click to expand...
Yep it's a bit sloppy but I can stick the tap in there and it will lock up. I had a feeling the squares would be metric.

I really appreciate the time you took to do that.
 
I’ve sold those tap guns into a local manufacturing facility. They flat out work and work well.
 
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