Soft shackles and kinetic ropes

[CarterKraft]

I’ve been using the sped up playback speed for years on nearly all non-music YouTube videos. When I watch something on 1x speed, it feels like everyone is drunk and slurring.

I started doing it on "Steve Watkins" videos, I even got my son to come listen, I said look this is 2x speed and this is 1x, we both just stared at each other

Damn he talks slow as hell

 

[MigGunslinger]

Well there ya go. Please watch it all the way through for the entire picture from point of view at the time with what was known, to the 20/20 hind sight perspective and then followed by a break down of the evidence and what broke. Then the bit at the very end goes into medical considerations as well as communications.

This was a good presentation, can’t find any fault in it. It will for sure change how I use my kinetic rope. Glad you are alright.

Regardless of all the BS about the bronco bumper, this wasn't the cause of this failure so get this shit back on track!

This is irate. threads always devolve into wild speculation and poo flinging so it’s pretty well on track.

 

[Clb]

Thanks for posting this, now I got something to watch in the am while drinking coffee .
cuz rainy day

 

[popo_patty]

This was a good presentation, can’t find any fault in it. It will for sure change how I use my kinetic rope. Glad you are alright.


This is irate. threads always devolve into wild speculation and poo flinging so it’s pretty well on track.

Thanks, I 100% messed up. I’m willing to fall on my sword there. That much is agreed on anywhere ;) It’s getting traction and my goal is to hopefully help others not fall into my traps that I fell into. They can come up with whatever opinion they want on it. I honestly am totally fine with it. As long as it helps someone in some way.

On a side note, I love irate and it’s craziness:)

 

[Hooligan]

Hooligan
Do you have vid of the Lexus recovery @ the end on met last trip.
That shows a great deal of flex associated with aftermarket parts...

Eta
I have a feeling that this bumper was using some?factory brackets? It looked great did not fail, but flexed alot.

I don’t have a video of it. But I’ll remember to next time.

 

[white-rhino]

Great video and IMO, worth watching EVERY minute of it.

 

[Mieser]

Good (bad) stuff for everyone in the sport to see. I think it's important to see these incidents and I thank you for sharing it in detail with the community. My takeaways from the long format video.....

The soft shackle break was more typical than thought. In testing, pretty much every soft shackle will fail in the noose 'similar' to this but I did notice a few things that are worth mentioning. 1.There is a bit more 'tail' past the noose which is a bit of an anomaly. This could be a situation where one of the legs was cut and caused the noose to come undone and pull through itself. 2. There was a lot of compacting of the fibers under the top knot, and I can't tell if the soft shackle 'tails' where turned back and buried in the legs. There is a measurable increase in strength on units where the noose is going around 4 diameters of rope vs only 2 diameters of rope. 3. I don't like soft shackles with single buried legs. I notice they have a tendency not evenly load both legs if everything isn't been milked into place. This can lead to a situation where one leg is taking most of the load. You also can't easily inspect the 'inner' leg for wear and the 'outer' leg takes most of the abuse.

I like using soft shackles, and continue to build my vehicles to directly support them, but if you have a hard shackle tab style mount, just use a hard shackle. This means no keeping the hard shackles on the mount full time so they can't be opened by hand or keeping a tool handy to be able to undo them if they are kept tight. ( note: if you keep them on the bumper full time, eventually they will corrode shut if they don't get used regularly ). Just try to eliminate as many 'extra' connection points as you can even if it is slightly less convenient.

Rope size and Impulse loading. Honestly, while the speed of the towing vehicle was definitely above what manufacturers would recommend for a safe kinetic recovery ( 5mph ), it didn't look crazy fast. I tried to do some estimating of the speed from the drone video and how far/fast the vehicle was moving. I came up with something about 10-12mph? Anyone else try anything similar? I think it's worth the time to fire up a GPS or digital speedo on your vehicle and just pace off what 5mph feels like ( only a fast walk! ) vs say 10mph ( a decent run? ) just to remind yourself how easy it can be to have a vehicle going that fast during a recovery if you're getting sporty with it.

I do think the 1" rope was going to make everything feel much stiffer, but there is going to be a balance there for overall strength vs the 'feel' of the rope. I agree that at 7/8 rope would feel 'better', but it will narrow up the safety margin a bit also. I do think having the rope fail is better than having an anchor fail. It would be interesting to do some testing on rope size vs what the load was on the anchor with the same vehicle speed. I think the softer 'impulse' of the smaller ropes will have a noticeably less peak load on the anchor even with the same input energy.

Overall, this is a good reminder that we should probably be looking at using BOTH recovery points whenever possible when doing a kinetic recovery. I'd also lean towards using an independent leg bridle system vs an equalizing bridle. Most kinetic recoveries are going to be in a relatively straight line ahead of the vehicle, and I am more interested in making the bridle system redundant vs trying to spread the load out perfectly evenly over multiple recovery points. In this case, it would have been nice to have the 2nd leg of an independent bridle be able to help 'catch' things when one of the attachment points failed. Note: Using a bridle does not 'half' the load on the anchors generally speaking. Even with a longer bridle there is going to be an additive inward side load on the recovery point. The shorter the bridle, the worse it gets.

Enough for now, thank you again for sharing the experience with everyone.

 

[JR4X]

Thanks, I 100% messed up. I’m willing to fall on my sword there. That much is agreed on anywhere ;) It’s getting traction and my goal is to hopefully help others not fall into my traps that I fell into. They can come up with whatever opinion they want on it. I honestly am totally fine with it. As long as it helps someone in some way.

On a side note, I love irate and it’s craziness:)

Thanks for sharing that. Glad you’re still here to get stuck again another day. Don’t worry about swords, nothing to go to bat over.

 

[Clb]

holieeee shit...

Nicely done
fwiw and to add in the hopefully tech part.

I think it is important to discuss with the manufacturer the importance of sizing these things.
I am not gunna name drop here, but after talking with the tech dept I landed on the 7/8"
even though the 1" looked good in my situation. Talking with the vendor, the rope sizing is pull vehicle specific.
I think that the chicom product was at fault? under rated?. Now given the jeep put it all on the line with the full send launch, if the scamazon loop had been one of the red ones from the USA the outlook could have been very different for the jeep.

Second kneejerk reaction was
Did or have you gone to the casino yet
Thanx for this , it certainly will alter my thoughts on rigging these a bit.
Having worked loadingLarge ass oil pipe at the steel mill taught me a lot, these rubber bands are a new animal tho...
Glad you got home ok.
Parting shot as I have had my wife on the bad end of these calls before...
Guys' on the med kit write down your vitals and description name address ect so a primary / first responder can get it right the first time, the amount of anguish his wife must had gone thru because the well meaning ham operator got the name wrong

 

[Hooligan]

Overall, this is a good reminder that we should probably be looking at using BOTH recovery points whenever possible when doing a kinetic recovery. I'd also lean towards using an independent leg bridle system vs an equalizing bridle. Most kinetic recoveries are going to be in a relatively straight line ahead of the vehicle, and I am more interested in making the bridle system redundant vs trying to spread the load out perfectly evenly over multiple recovery points. In this case, it would have been nice to have the 2nd leg of an independent bridle be able to help 'catch' things when one of the attachment points failed. Note: Using a bridle does not 'half' the load on the anchors generally speaking. Even with a longer bridle there is going to be an additive inward side load on the recovery point. The shorter the bridle, the worse it gets.

Interesting idea on the independent bridle. Using two 6’ tree saver straps. Due to angle, the recovery points won’t see equal loads, but that is okay.

Are the equalizing bridles meant to support a mid-point load? I wouldn’t necessarily trust say a single 6’ tree saver strap as a bridle that is then point loaded in the middle. That isn’t the intended usage.

 

[white-rhino]

I’m not sure a bridle system is the best due to vectored forces being generated. Gotta think on that. 🧐🧐🧐

My biggest takeaway is the pull was way harder than any of the equipment was rated for. I’ve always encouraged a light tug and then add force as needed vs going like hell from the get go and NEVER do full throttle pulls with a long running start.

 

[Mieser]

Interesting idea on the independent bridle. Using two 6’ tree saver straps. Due to angle, the recovery points won’t see equal loads, but that is okay.

Are the equalizing bridles meant to support a mid-point load? I wouldn’t necessarily trust say a single 6’ tree saver strap as a bridle that is then point loaded in the middle. That isn’t the intended usage.

I don't think anyone would recommend a kinetic recovery be done at a high angle. Even with an independent leg bridle, I would say the vehicle is going to straighten itself out to the bridle pretty quick under a decent load. I'm more worried at this point about having a bit of redundancy to catch things ( 2nd leg of the bridle ), than trying to equalize and halve the loads. Note: as I mentioned before, bridles no matter what, no not halve the load.....they just reduce it. They will always introduce some kind of 'additional' side load into the anchor based on their length. The longer the bridle the less additional side load.

There isn't anything stopping someone from coming up with an independent leg bridle that could have its legs adjusted in length. That is how most commercial tow truck bridles are done with chains and hooks. I don't want that much metal in a kinetic recovery, so I think just using twin tree straps is pretty simple and works more than well enough.

As far as equalizing bridles, it would depend on what you are using to make the bridle. The first thing to watch out for is the rope on rope ( or rope on strap) sliding friction is going to be pretty hard on everything if you are changing directions often. A strap is going to see some decrease in strength with a midline connection that 'bunches' up the fabric. I would say we could use a similar derating to the strap being used as a choker. That is listed on most labels and is usually about a 20% loss in overall strength vs an eye to eye single leg. A rope based bridle is probably going to be a bit better, but will still suffer from the rope sliding back and forth. I would use some very good abrasion material at least. You could use a ring/block to equalize the load with a lot less friction, but I don't really want to add metal in if I don't have to.

 

[Tacodriver]

There is a climber on youtube that has a test rig for testing various climbing gear and he has tested soft shackles . Some of his videos on breaking other rigging or knots are quite interesting.
Also as a logger who runs a yarder I have seen wire rope fucked up in all manner of ways when it contacts a sharp edge or too tight of a bend, really sucks to see 300 feet of line pigtailed in the middle of a 3000 foot haulback.
When we rig a bridle for a guyline or whatever we use what we call a halfmoon or bridle block that allows the bridle to equalize without kinking the line causing a weak spot.

 

[Clb]

Bend radius ftw
Watched some of this guy's stuff before, good shit
I'll be back

Eta
Cascade heavy rescue is in bed with one of these companies, he has some tech how to stuff.
A couple of the other companies have some good tech like minimum bend angle of pull loading ect.
I have not followed the mats thread so this might be Fudd
( sorry if it is)

 

[Clb]

This thread and the mobile medical kit has me thinking that it would be a good idea for a ( in some form )

Rigging,Recovery and Rescue

type of thread

Between the doctor and emt types here, it might make for a good tech resource?

 

[DFW Rusty]

That sux, saw it on facebook and freaked me out a bit.... I thought that the new soft shackles and bubba ropes were supposed to be safer. I'll just stick to my old fashioned d rings and 2" tow straps.

 

[ash]

What is the minimum radius recommended on a recovery point to reduce the possibility of a hard edge failure on a soft shackle?

 

[Snacktime]

Now I am rethinking my recent synthetic winch pulley set up. Maybe go back to a bearing support one.

 

[ridered3]

That sux, saw it on facebook and freaked me out a bit.... I thought that the new soft shackles and bubba ropes were supposed to be safer. I'll just stick to my old fashioned d rings and 2" tow straps.

Arguably safer (10 people will give 12 opinions on the topic) when used properly, which is the key aspect of it all.

What is the minimum radius recommended on a recovery point to reduce the possibility of a hard edge failure on a soft shackle?

I believe the general consensus is that a SOFT shackle and HARD edge should not be commingling together.

 

[Winchested]

Now I am rethinking my recent synthetic winch pulley set up. Maybe go back to a bearing support one.

Absolutely fine when sized correctly and not used in a 10 mph shock load situation.

 

[ash]

Arguably safer (10 people will give 12 opinions on the topic) when used properly, which is the key aspect of it all.


I believe the general consensus is that a SOFT shackle and HARD edge should not be commingling together.

What about something like this? At some point enough of a radius doesn’t constitute as a hard edge, right?

THE RHINO SOFT SHACKLE & D-RING MOUNT

CNC machined in house from 1" thick cold rolled steel Works with soft shackles, d-rings, or tow/recovery straps Fully radius'd profile for use with soft shackles Pass thru pocket accepts a 3/4" d-ring Large chamfer on the backside for excellent weld penetration Sold in pairs (2 pieces)

www.tmrcustoms.com

 

[ridered3]

What about something like this? At some point enough of a radius doesn’t constitute as a hard edge, right?

THE RHINO SOFT SHACKLE & D-RING MOUNT

CNC machined in house from 1" thick cold rolled steel Works with soft shackles, d-rings, or tow/recovery straps Fully radius'd profile for use with soft shackles Pass thru pocket accepts a 3/4" d-ring Large chamfer on the backside for excellent weld penetration Sold in pairs (2 pieces)

www.tmrcustoms.com

Determining that is way above my pay grade/recovery expertise Also I've never used a kinetic rope, sonot insight there.

Personally, I make it a point that soft shackles are only looped around tubing, but not used on sharp edges or open d-ring areas.

 

[gt1guy]

What about something like this? At some point enough of a radius doesn’t constitute as a hard edge, right?

THE RHINO SOFT SHACKLE & D-RING MOUNT

CNC machined in house from 1" thick cold rolled steel Works with soft shackles, d-rings, or tow/recovery straps Fully radius'd profile for use with soft shackles Pass thru pocket accepts a 3/4" d-ring Large chamfer on the backside for excellent weld penetration Sold in pairs (2 pieces)

www.tmrcustoms.com

I'd say that's still a fail for the soft shackle. They should have made the hook part round.

A tiny radius might make US feel better but it's not doing much for the soft shackle.

 

[Mieser]

What is the minimum radius recommended on a recovery point to reduce the possibility of a hard edge failure on a soft shackle?

To maintain 'maximum' rope strength with UHMWPE, the diameter of the 'pin' should be 3x the rope diameter minimum.
(3/8 rope around basically a 1 1/8 pin diameter ( or 9/16" radius ) )
A larger radius will help increase overall life, but it isn't a straight linear relationship.
The rope will start to test over its MBS and more up to its Average Breaking Strength rigged like this

Even a 1x relationship of bend radius to rope diameter will be performing close to 90% of MBS, but you will notice some accelerated fiber wear as the radius gets smaller. ( 3/8 rope around a 3/8" pin diameter ( or a 3/16" radius )

I like to see a minimum of a 1/4" radius on recovery points designed for any soft rigging

 

[JR4X]

Arguably safer (10 people will give 12 opinions on the topic) when used properly, which is the key aspect of it all.


I believe the general consensus is that a SOFT shackle and HARD edge should not be commingling together.

I’ve been been following. IMO 1 1/2 mistakes were made and it’s the 1/2 mistake that made the biggest difference.

Having the Jeep help is the half mistake because the driver didn’t know the guy. So things got rushed and not communicated. I bet dudes friends would have went slow and methodical because they know each other and none of them seemed in a big hurry. The reason I’m assigning the 1/2 is because it does kinda make sense to have the Jeep give them a pull because he was right there and the vehicle was obviously more snow capable than other rigs.

The one real mistake was using a soft shackle in a D ring hole. If that Jeep had a D ring already in that hole I bet we’d have never heard about this day.

 

[ridered3]

I’ve been been following. IMO 1 1/2 mistakes were made and it’s the 1/2 mistake that made the biggest difference.

Having the Jeep help is the half mistake because the driver didn’t know the guy. So things got rushed and not communicated. I bet dudes friends would have went slow and methodical because they know each other and none of them seemed in a big hurry. The reason I’m assigning the 1/2 is because it does kinda make sense to have the Jeep give them a pull because he was right there and the vehicle was obviously more snow capable than other rigs.

The one real mistake was using a soft shackle in a D ring hole. If that Jeep had a D ring already in that hole I bet we’d have never heard about this day.

Good summary 👍

 

[Beat95yj]

I’ve been been following. IMO 1 1/2 mistakes were made and it’s the 1/2 mistake that made the biggest difference.

Having the Jeep help is the half mistake because the driver didn’t know the guy. So things got rushed and not communicated. I bet dudes friends would have went slow and methodical because they know each other and none of them seemed in a big hurry. The reason I’m assigning the 1/2 is because it does kinda make sense to have the Jeep give them a pull because he was right there and the vehicle was obviously more snow capable than other rigs.

The one real mistake was using a soft shackle in a D ring hole. If that Jeep had a D ring already in that hole I bet we’d have never heard about this day.

I agree with almost everything you said.

My dickhead friends would have had a competition to see who could rip my bumper off first.

 

[Mieser]

The one real mistake was using a soft shackle in a D ring hole. If that Jeep had a D ring already in that hole I bet we’d have never heard about this day.

The bronco side was REALLY close to an ultimate failure. If the jeep side would have been much stronger, I fear that the broken clevis mount would have found its way out that slot in the bumper headed towards the back of the Jeep. Instead of just the rope, it would have been a rope plus 5lbs of steel attached to the end. That sounds worse to me.

 

[JR4X]

The bronco side was REALLY close to an ultimate failure. If the jeep side would have been much stronger, I fear that the broken clevis mount would have found its way out that slot in the bumper headed towards the back of the Jeep. Instead of just the rope, it would have been a rope plus 5lbs of steel attached to the end. That sounds worse to me.

You think his friends would’ve ripped it off on the first or second hit full send like that?

 

[Mieser]

You think his friends would’ve ripped it off on the first or second hit full send like that?

If it wasn't the 1st or 2nd 'hit'....what about the 10th?

To me.....the structural failure on the bronco side is very concerning. Not just the aftermarket stuff, but just generally how the Bronco rails connect to the face plate mounting structure. JK, JL/JT stuff suffers from the same shortcomings. I think OE manufacturers are just getting backed into a corner with how much structure they can('t) have on the front of the frame for crash test reasons. I've seen some very concerning behavior from new bronco winch bumpers on the trail, even just during pretty mild winching. I see a lot of aftermarket companies offering more and more additional bracing and structure for the front frame section.