Soft shackles and kinetic ropes

[ApeEater]

One interesting thing with thimbles, they are not 'rated' for the full breaking strength of the rope. They do help with longer term low load abrasion, but they will collapse/deform at full load unless the pin going through them is the correct ( large ) diameter. When they collapse and deform they can produce sharp edges that can be dangerous synthetic lines.

What about the tube thimbles? I'd be curious to see how they hold up to hard pulls.

They sell a rubber disc thing that you stick on the rope before the thimble and acts like the retract stop on a hose/cord reel.

That’s exactly the kind of thing that Mieser is recommending against because the pin is too small. I have one of those and I don’t think it’s right.

Like this. It just clamps around the line and acts as a stopper, to keep the steel thimble from interacting with the aluminum fairlead.

 

[white-rhino]

You don't have a shackle oven?? Rookie move! Smittybuilt sells one for $3500, bolts right up to your JL

I have a JK, not a JL. DAMMIT! Foiled again.

 

[Slander]

I have a JK, not a JL. DAMMIT! Foiled again.

Well that explains it!

 

[ridered3]

That’s exactly the kind of thing that Mieser is recommending against because the pin is too small. I have one of those and I don’t think it’s right.

Makes sense there. I've only had them on a couple of older SxS, so no real weight behind those (comparatively speaking of course).

 

[CarterKraft]

Id love to see a slo-mo video of the chain stretch after backing up bumper to bumper and full throttle yank back in the day.

It might have been the attachment points of the vehicles absorbing the shock, that has changed a bunch on modern vehicles.

 

[welndmn]

Your saying you hit a chain/ strap that hard?

Yes, believe it or not, there was once a time where they did not even have recovery straps.
When chain came out of fashion we would sew loops on old rigging straps and use those.

I am just saying, people think that was a hard pull, I don't think have been around that long, to me, the video did not show a hard pull.

 

[Arickvan]

Thank you for the mention! I tried to make the best possible 2.0 and 2.5 Soft Shackle Receiver Adapter I could.

Soft Shackle Receiver Adapter, 2.0 size

This 5-axis machined 6061-T6 billet aluminum masterpiece provides the perfect connection for soft rigging into a 2.0" receiver hitch. The SSRA ( Soft Shackle Receiver Adapter) from Brennan's Garage provides the safest, most direct, connection to the pin in a common receiver hitch while using...

brennans-garage.com

Soft Shackle Reciever Adapter, 2.5 Size

This 5-axis machined 6061-T6 billet aluminum masterpiece provides the perfect connection for soft rigging into a 2.5" receiver hitch. The SSRA ( Soft Shackle Receiver Adapter) from Brennan's Garage provides the safest, most direct, connection to the pin in a common receiver hitch while using...

brennans-garage.com

i didnt realize you were on here

my buddy busted that out at KOH this year and it had me confused since its all hidden away once installed

we also used your aluminum snatch block, i think for the first time

I'm curious how do you feel about factor 55's snatch block and running the line thru the donut instead of around the donut?

 

[MigGunslinger]

I am just saying, people think that was a hard pull, I don't think have been around that long, to me, the video did not show a hard pull.

That is kind of the point and the criticism of the kinetic ropes here.

The stretch allows you to reach the failure point of components rated for ~40k lbs without the neck breaking jerk of a strap or chain. We know the pull was incredibly hard because of the simultaneous bumper and soft shackle failure and the testimony of the guy who was injured. I'll admit that the drone footage makes it look like a normal pull. If someone put that much force into a chain pulling you out, and nothing failed, you would get whiplash best case.

 

[arse_sidewards]

The stretch allows you to reach the failure point of components rated for ~40k lbs without the neck breaking jerk of a strap or chain.

No. It doesn't. Components are rated in force, not energy.

F = M*A. The stretch and time of the strap massively reduces the A

The reason shit goes flying more than it used to is because all that kinetic energy is momentarily getting stored in the rope which is acting as a spring so when you do put a few ten thousand pounds of tension on it and break something you've now got all that stored energy in the spring that is gonna find a way out. The straps back in the day weren't storing all the kinetic energy of a (for example) 10mph down to 2mph acceleration even if they were subject to more force, say 5mph down to 1mph over a tenth of less of the time, that energy mostly went into breaking shit, usually breaking the friction between the stuck vehicle and whatever it was in but sometimes something else.

We know the pull was incredibly hard

The pulls leading up to it were even harder. It wouldn't surprise me if that first one in the forward direction was the one that did the bumper and the soft shackle didn't fuck off until the bolt head was hard against the plate and the soft shackle became the new weak link.

 

[MigGunslinger]

No. It doesn't. Components are rated in force, not energy.

I'm not sure what you are refuting here. Your argument is that the force is reduced on the components because of slower acceleration? OK. I'm saying people are willing to pull harder because it doesn't feel as violent with the kinetic rope. I don't have the engineering to argue that point so i'm going to base my opinion on feelings.

The pulls leading up to it were even harder. It wouldn't surprise me if that first one in the forward direction was the one that did the bumper and the soft shackle didn't fuck off until the bolt head was hard against the plate and the soft shackle became the new weak link.

Very well could be. We do have driver testimony saying that the second forward pull was harder, but you are right, the bronco bumper could have begun to fail on the first forward pull.

 

[Bebop]

7/16 is a good match for a 12k winch in my opinion. You will have to give up a bit of line capacity on smaller drums, but if you take the time to get good tension on the lower layers it won't be much.

I know I know, not applicable etc but in winch challenge, everyone is running 14mm or 18mm rope on much smaller winches.
If you had a tiny samurai, you'd be ok to pass tech with a 12mm rope but not smaller.

 

[arse_sidewards]

I'm saying people are willing to pull harder because it doesn't feel as violent with the kinetic rope.

I'm saying that how it feels is how it is.

You're feeling the force. If it feels softer it's because you're accelerating more gently and using less force even if KE is way higher.

 

[Mieser]

Not often I have an issue I don’t have a solution for on my own but thimbles are one. All the synthetic roped winches I have, have had the thimble jammed into the fairlead by people “helping” me get spooled up after a pull.

Thimbles bent and deformed. Sharp gouges left in the soft aluminum which then abrade the rope. I bought a Factor55 thing to get rid of a thimble but never used it because the pin is too small and the thimble doesn’t fit in the slot.

Aside from not letting anyone else ever touch your recovery gear. How do you handle the thimble issue?

I've decided to eliminate the need for the thimble. I came up with what I call the 'soft-hook' technique a year or two ago now.

Short version, it joins the tail of a soft shackle to the slightly enlarged soft eye on the end of the winch line with a cow hitch Loop2Loop style connection. The top knot of the soft shackle is run into the remaining space in the soft eye end.

This gave me the best balance of a hook, loop, or thimble end setup with zero metal and no 'special' parts. Wear is isolated to the soft shackle portion of the system and has easily replaceable guard material. The top knot of the soft shackle sucks up against the fairlead for storage. The system can be taken apart without any tools in seconds to allow rigging the soft shackle with the small end first if needed. Easy to rebuild in the field if you have a winch line issue or damage.

 

[Mieser]

What about the tube thimbles? I'd be curious to see how they hold up to hard pulls.

Generally, same quirks. The tube thimbles without the gusset in the middle collapse to the pin diameter at the failure point. The ones with the gusset just form a little triangle from the gusset to the pin.

All metal thimbles seem to get pretty torn up over time. I know I mashed more than one back in my normal 'hook' days before all the fancy 'thimble' bumper stuff came around.

 

[white-rhino]

I've decided to eliminate the need for the thimble. I came up with what I call the 'soft-hook' technique a year or two ago now.

Short version, it joins the tail of a soft shackle to the slightly enlarged soft eye on the end of the winch line with a cow hitch Loop2Loop style connection. The top knot of the soft shackle is run into the remaining space in the soft eye end.

This gave me the best balance of a hook, loop, or thimble end setup with zero metal and no 'special' parts. Wear is isolated to the soft shackle portion of the system and has easily replaceable guard material. The top knot of the soft shackle sucks up against the fairlead for storage. The system can be taken apart without any tools in seconds to allow rigging the soft shackle with the small end first if needed. Easy to rebuild in the field if you have a winch line issue or damage.

Pics?

 

[ApeEater]

I'm curious how do you feel about factor 55's snatch block and running the line thru the donut instead of around the donut?

Why would you want to do that?

Generally, same quirks. The tube thimbles without the gusset in the middle collapse to the pin diameter at the failure point. The ones with the gusset just form a little triangle from the gusset to the pin.

All metal thimbles seem to get pretty torn up over time. I know I mashed more than one back in my normal 'hook' days before all the fancy 'thimble' bumper stuff came around.

Are these bending within the limits of a typical recovery winch? Or this is more a concern in dynamic pulls like the case in point?

Pics?

Yes, pics please.

 

[Arickvan]

Why would you want to do that?

the winch line can't fall out of the "groove" when slack if you go thru the donut, factor 55 is also big on showing it doubled up with one line going thru the donut and then going out to another snatch and then back around the donut

Mieser has an anti tip block that fixes that issue, just curious if he thinks going thru the donut is weaker or builds too much heat

 

[aczlan]

Generally, same quirks. The tube thimbles without the gusset in the middle collapse to the pin diameter at the failure point. The ones with the gusset just form a little triangle from the gusset to the pin.

All metal thimbles seem to get pretty torn up over time. I know I mashed more than one back in my normal 'hook' days before all the fancy 'thimble' bumper stuff came around.

So the upper ones here are slightly better, but not a lot?

Is there a better option for small lines? I have a small (1/4"?) synthetic line that I spliced both ends of to make a 10' "pull out the lawnmower/golf cart" tow line and it bugs me that the thimble crinkled like a tin can on a very gentle pull:

Aaron Z

 

[Mieser]

I know I know, not applicable etc but in winch challenge, everyone is running 14mm or 18mm rope on much smaller winches.
If you had a tiny samurai, you'd be ok to pass tech with a 12mm rope but not smaller.

Increasing the diameter of the winch line will always increase long term durability. Those events can be hell on lines.

A lot of those vehicles are also running twin motor upright winches in the starter classes and PTO 'god' winches that pull who knows how hard.

 

[Mieser]

So the upper ones here are slightly better, but not a lot?

Is there a better option for small lines? I have a small (1/4"?) synthetic line that I spliced both ends of to make a 10' "pull out the lawnmower/golf cart" tow line and it bugs me that the thimble crinkled like a tin can on a very gentle pull:

Aaron Z

The only one I have noticed that was 'better' was this style....



The gusset seems to help keep them 'open' longer before they start to elongate if used with a smaller pin.

 

[Bebop]

So the upper ones here are slightly better, but not a lot?

Is there a better option for small lines?

 

[Mieser]

Pics?

Pretty simple. I use a 12.5 circumference 'eye' for the end of the winch line with my 7/16" rope based soft shackles.
That makes for a good fit with the top knot in the remaining space after the Loop2Loop connection.



Best system I have come up with so far for me, and I have tried pretty much all the normal stuff over the years.

 

[Jeffh555]

That's clever. Smallest size is for 1/2" rope with a 1" hole.

https://www.amazon.com/Crosby-1037121-solid-thimbles-colored/dp/B005HRT1WO

 

[Mieser]

the winch line can't fall out of the "groove" when slack if you go thru the donut, factor 55 is also big on showing it doubled up with one line going thru the donut and then going out to another snatch and then back around the donut

Mieser has an anti tip block that fixes that issue, just curious if he thinks going thru the donut is weaker or builds too much heat

There was some recent testing done by Robert Pepper on Youtube that compared blocks to rings ( both the traditional and modern versions ).

Generally, A block has about 7-8% loss from friction compared to 9% for a large rotating 'traditional' ring ( like running my ring in the normal 'around' the outside so that the ring is mostly spinning ). The smaller diameter F55 ring was about 11-12% loss ( because of the smaller working diameter ). The Yankum offset rings where about 13-14% loss in either direction. Going through the middle of the ring in that system seemed to be actually about 1% more efficient than going around the outside ( of a non spinning ring ).



When I designed my ring package, I was looking for the most flexible system possible. I developed the Anti-Tip Block in late 2018 I believe and have sold those in a few different thicknesses to support not only my products but others. I think it is the only solution on the market that actually works most of the time with most of the products on the market. It has strong secondary benefits like keeping the legs of the soft shackle the right distance apart when hooking to something narrower than the ring. This prevents extra friction on the outside edges of the ring ( which are also far too commonly rather sharp across the industry ).

In late 2022 I decided to start producing my own recovery ring from scratch as I was having a hard time during the pandemic getting the All-Gear rings in the quantities I needed to support my little store. When I designed my 'new' ring, I decided to address a lot of the shortcomings I saw with many products in the industry while adding support for new features and techniques I had been experimenting with for the last few years.....double rigging, center rigging, knot passing, better geometry, softer edges, larger center hole, etc.

You can read more about some of that here.

Recovery Ring Package

Note: Major update! New best in the industry package price. Because of ongoing supplier issues, I am now providing a larger custom made CNC 6061-T6 Aluminum Recovery Ring of my own design in this package along with including the newest updated soft shackle made from the highest quality materials...

brennans-garage.com

I think my Recovery Ring kit is one of the best thought out in the industry at one of the best prices. I also sell just the ring, blocks, soft shackles, etc. All my soft shackles are not manufactured by Yankum Ropes from 7/16" Samson Amsteel-Blue and now feature my exclusive Wildland Fire Hose guard material for most of the configurations ( by far the best static guard material I have found...it will outlast tubular nylon by a factor of 10 )

If anyone has any other questions, please let me know.

 

[RPS1030]

the winch line can't fall out of the "groove" when slack if you go thru the donut, factor 55 is also big on showing it doubled up with one line going thru the donut and then going out to another snatch and then back around the donut

Mieser has an anti tip block that fixes that issue, just curious if he thinks going thru the donut is weaker or builds too much heat

Yankum, not Factor55

 

[ApeEater]

There was some recent testing done by Robert Pepper on Youtube that compared blocks to rings ( both the traditional and modern versions ).

Generally, A block has about 7-8% loss from friction compared to 9% for a large rotating 'traditional' ring ( like running my ring in the normal 'around' the outside so that the ring is mostly spinning ). The smaller diameter F55 ring was about 11-12% loss ( because of the smaller working diameter ). The Yankum offset rings where about 13-14% loss in either direction. Going through the middle of the ring in that system seemed to be actually about 1% more efficient than going around the outside ( of a non spinning ring ).



When I designed my ring package, I was looking for the most flexible system possible. I developed the Anti-Tip Block in late 2018 I believe and have sold those in a few different thicknesses to support not only my products but others. I think it is the only solution on the market that actually works most of the time with most of the products on the market. It has strong secondary benefits like keeping the legs of the soft shackle the right distance apart when hooking to something narrower than the ring. This prevents extra friction on the outside edges of the ring ( which are also far too commonly rather sharp across the industry ).

In late 2022 I decided to start producing my own recovery ring from scratch as I was having a hard time during the pandemic getting the All-Gear rings in the quantities I needed to support my little store. When I designed my 'new' ring, I decided to address a lot of the shortcomings I saw with many products in the industry while adding support for new features and techniques I had been experimenting with for the last few years.....double rigging, center rigging, knot passing, better geometry, softer edges, larger center hole, etc.

You can read more about some of that here.

Recovery Ring Package

Note: Major update! New best in the industry package price. Because of ongoing supplier issues, I am now providing a larger custom made CNC 6061-T6 Aluminum Recovery Ring of my own design in this package along with including the newest updated soft shackle made from the highest quality materials...

brennans-garage.com

I think my Recovery Ring kit is one of the best thought out in the industry at one of the best prices. I also sell just the ring, blocks, soft shackles, etc. All my soft shackles are not manufactured by Yankum Ropes from 7/16" Samson Amsteel-Blue and now feature my exclusive Wildland Fire Hose guard material for most of the configurations ( by far the best static guard material I have found...it will outlast tubular nylon by a factor of 10 )

If anyone has any other questions, please let me know.

I like the block for the rings. That's a neat idea.

I never understood the Yankum ring with the offset hole.

 

[Wheelerfreak]

7/16 is a good match for a 12k winch in my opinion. You will have to give up a bit of line capacity on smaller drums, but if you take the time to get good tension on the lower layers it won't be much.

As far as the minimum radius goes, the closer to 3x rope diameter ( or larger ) you can get, the stronger the eye will be and the longer it will last before breaking down some of the fibers. That does become impractical at some point though since we are talking about a pin about 1.3" in diameter. As far as general strength, even a 1:1 diameter ratio will still test at about 90 percent of the rope MBS strength ( but you will see some accelerated wear and a shorter overall life on the inside of the loop ).

The 7/16 rope I got was 75', so the same length as the factory rope that it replaced. I was just wondering about the bend radius on the 5/8 pin on the F55 flat link I'm using and was debating putting a thimble on it.

I ordered one of your 2.5" hitch adaptors for soft shackles last night. I wish I had known about your shop before because I would have ordered from you instead. I will bookmark the site now though.

I have used the new style pulleys while winching several times, mainly while doing angled pulls, and it is a PITA that the rope keeps coming off the pulley when rigging it initially or when it gets slack. I bought one of the F55 rope retention pulleys that has the plastic "fingers" on it to hold the winch line in place. Seems like a neat idea but I haven't had to use that yet.

 

[Beat95yj]

Try this w/ soft shackle!

 

[Mieser]

The 7/16 rope I got was 75', so the same length as the factory rope that it replaced. I was just wondering about the bend radius on the 5/8 pin on the F55 flat link I'm using and was debating putting a thimble on it.

I ordered one of your 2.5" hitch adaptors for soft shackles last night. I wish I had known about your shop before because I would have ordered from you instead. I will bookmark the site now though.

I have used the new style pulleys while winching several times, mainly while doing angled pulls, and it is a PITA that the rope keeps coming off the pulley when rigging it initially or when it gets slack. I bought one of the F55 rope retention pulleys that has the plastic "fingers" on it to hold the winch line in place. Seems like a neat idea but I haven't had to use that yet.

The 5/8 pin size isn't ideal for 7/16 line, but there isn't much you can really do to improve on that without running very large hardware. A normal thimble won't make the system any stronger really, but it will add some long term abrasion protection in the interface area.

Thank you for your order!

The F55 ring with the fingers is one way to attack the 'tip out' issue with recovery rings, but I've found it not the best solution overall. It seems to work about 80% of the time in my experience. I went another way with my products and developed my Anti-Tip Block to combat that issue. In testing, that seems to work pretty much every time as long as the strap on the block is tight. Here is the video from the concept test I did in Nov of 2018. Man how time flies....

 

[Bebop]

Other options :

The Splicer

The world’s first splice on synthetic rope shackle mounting thimble with rope protection and integrated rubber pad. The unique machined rope passage provides a tough outer barrier to protect against rope impact and abrasion as well as UV exposure protection. Compatible with synthetic ropes up to...

www.factor55.com

Flat Splicer

The Flat Splicer is the world’s first splice on folding winch rope shackle mount thimble. Finished in a durable Mil-Spec hard anodized surface, the Flat Splicer can be folded flat against winch fairleads minimizing vehicle frontal protrusion.

www.factor55.com