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Shock Theory

Crystal clear, thanks for that clarification :beer:



Ahh on the fourth one, I had to reread the context you provided again, I didn't interpret "The mass starts at the uncompressed spring" correctly this morning, but I completely understand now. The top of the chart is 10" of "droop" (for discussions sake), and the bottom of the chart at -10, is 10" of compression (assuming 0 is ride height). My mind just intuitively wanted to assume positive numbers were toward full compression and negative numbers toward full droop, but it's irrelevant really. Just happy I get it :smokin:

On the sixth one, thanks for giving the absolute chart now as well, that one took me a second to interpret as well but I get it now, showing how each force curve kinda "lags" behind the amount of input movement as they dissipate the forces differently
All of the charts were done as body movement, with 0 being steady state ride. Positive is body above steady state. Negative is below.
 
Now, inertia valves on rebound. Ricor had them in thier short lived off road foray. In theory they sound good but in practice they never seem right. It added another layer of complexity that teams didn't want to deal with. Especially with almost zero support from the company.

I have heard them mentioned by some of the Euro shock makers but have not seen any in person or even pictures of them.
 
Here's a pic of the damping ratio range all on the same plot. The 0.75 to 0.25 range is of most interest to vehicle suspension.

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Awesome input, thanks! I have definitely encountered failed shocks on coil sprung vehicles and how much energy stays in the system with the spring just happily oscillating along not dissipating much :lmao:. Those are good times hah. I do have more questions about the context of the expected rebound forces you describe though, is that in the context of a vehicle with a multi-hundred lb/in wheel rate (spring rate @ the wheel) and minimal unsprung mass? If we shift to the context of a trophy truck with a sub-100lb/in wheel rate and more unsprung mass, it seems like the required rebound forces would be notably decreased? At least based on the much lower spring rate and in turn, less stored energy at full compression.

Not to say that trophy trucks are what we're shooting for or anything, they're just one extreme end of the spectrum. While they excel in the desert, they definitely don't have street comfort and body stability of any sort on asphalt hah.



Very cool chart. Crazy how much rebound force that Dobinson is making. I also find it a little surprising that the bypass zones of the bypass shock are active in both directions. Are those created by auxiliary pistons like the Black Hawk from the above video? Just shooting from the hip, I think of bypasses in the context of "traditional" internal and external bypasses with essentially check valves on each bypass path making them active in only one direction (somewhat?). But as I see more devices like that Black Hawk, I'm understanding how those zones can be active in both directions

Yeah a coil suspension with no damping is way more bouncey than leafs. Leafs have enough friction damping in them to stop the see-sawing forever feel.

Rebound damping is proportional to sprung mass and spring-rates. Spring rates are dictated by sprung-mass and desired ride frequency.
If you take a good performing setup and double the spring-rate it'll be harsh, jiggly and underdamped. If you increase the compression and rebound damping you'll get rid of the underdamped problem but the harshness will feel even worse and the jiggly feeling will remain.

The OME BP51 shocks run an extruded outer housing with internal channels. There are holes drilled through from the bore to these chanels. Some have checked rebound control adjustable with a rotating ring, some have checked compression control adjustable the same way. I didn't have the time to do any reverse-engineering on it. We just rebuilt it with new seals and reset it to customers settings. It was in a 79 series landcruiser beam axle.

The Dobinson isn't adjustable (but is internally tuneable) and was in a hilux IFS. I haven't worked out the leverage ratios or spring-rates. It's probably similar to my Dmax (related to Colorado) but I haven't done any suspension work on that either. I just drive it.
 
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RE jacking/packing. This is why I'm am generally against flutter stacks on only one side. It essentially provides directional bleed and can lead to jacking/packing in small chatter. If your going to run a flutter to help out with low-speed instead of going full sloppy with the bleeds, do both sides.
Jacking in moderation isn't necessarily a bad thing since it basically adds up-travel in relation to vehicle speed and road surface roughness. In practice this means lower ride height at low speeds or on smooth surfaces but a little extra height to absorb a hit on rougher surfaces.
 
All of the charts were done as body movement, with 0 being steady state ride. Positive is body above steady state. Negative is below.
I've definitely got ya now, and the reasoning behind the chart axes is definitely reasonable. Even though I try not to make too many assumptions, sometimes they still get the better of me :laughing:


Now, inertia valves on rebound. Ricor had them in thier short lived off road foray. In theory they sound good but in practice they never seem right. It added another layer of complexity that teams didn't want to deal with. Especially with almost zero support from the company.

I have heard them mentioned by some of the Euro shock makers but have not seen any in person or even pictures of them.
Hmmm it looks like I have some reading to do about the what and how of those. Looks like Fox patented it for mountain bike applications in 2004

US7128192B2 - Inertia valve shock absorber - Google Patents


Yeah a coil suspension with no damping is way more bouncey than leafs. Leafs have enough friction damping in them to stop the see-sawing forever feel.

Rebound damping is proportional to sprung mass and spring-rates. Spring rates are dictated by sprung-mass and desired ride frequency.
If you take a good performing setup and double the spring-rate it'll be harsh, jiggly and underdamped. If you increase the compression and rebound damping you'll get rid of the underdamped problem but the harshness will feel even worse and the jiggly feeling will remain.

The OME BP51 shocks run an extruded outer housing with internal channels. There are holes drilled through from the bore to these chanels. Some have checked rebound control adjustable with a rotating ring, some have checked compression control adjustable the same way. I didn't have the time to do any reverse-engineering on it. We just rebuilt it with new seals and reset it to customers settings. It was in a 79 series landcruiser beam axle.

The Dobinson isn't adjustable (but is internally tuneable) and was in a hilux IFS. I haven't worked out the leverage ratios or spring-rates. It's probably similar to my Dmax (related to Colorado) but I haven't done any suspension work on that either. I just drive it.

Very interesting on the OME BP51 construction, I was wondering if aluminum extrusions with various channels that could be tapped into had been applied to shock bodies, I may have to go hunting for some cutaways so we can get into the fun details on those.


Spring rates are dictated by sprung-mass and desired ride frequency.

This is one area that seems to have a pretty unique set of circumstances for long travel offroad, which add compromises that make frequency play a less important role than other automotive environments. There were great discussions about frequency back on the old board like a decade ago, but a lot of it seems to have been thrown out the window (to a degree) for a much simpler overall recipe.

Basically what I hear these days if I were to try to throw an overgeneralized blanket statement onto long travel spring choices - (and please, anyone, correct me if i'm wrong or add more detail!) is that you basically try to set up shocks with ~1-2" of preload at full droop (because keeping smooth spring pressure all the way to the end seems significant, versus any sort of tender spring if the primary coils unseat), and the rate simply has to be soft enough to achieve your desired ride height. So if a truck has 10" of droop from ride height and 1,200lbs of sprung mass on that corner, you need a maximum primary wheel rate of 100lb/in (10"+2" of spring compression @ ride height). Then you can't go too much lower in primary rate before running into spring block height limitations (I believe?). So the window of useable spring rates that don't unseat and don't reach block height is pretty limited.

Now, it has been common to run dual rate setups with a step up collar that ramps the spring rate up to the value of the lower coil alone which does throw a wrench in the works as to how much energy is being stored by the springs (to be damped in rebound), but I recently saw note from bdkw1 that it seems dual rate configurations are falling by the wayside (at least on big shocks) as things progress too. bdkw1, do you know if they are hitting block height on the upper spring on those single rate setups, or are they true single rate all the way to bump?
 
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Now, inertia valves on rebound. Ricor had them in thier short lived off road foray. In theory they sound good but in practice they never seem right. It added another layer of complexity that teams didn't want to deal with. Especially with almost zero support from the company.

I have heard them mentioned by some of the Euro shock makers but have not seen any in person or even pictures of them.
If the euro company you were talking about is Donaire (remember how to spell it). They are a licensee of RICOR. RICOR did have sharks on the winning Paris Dakar cars in the early 2000s. I worked there in the late 2000s.

In my opinion, I would rather have an acceleration sensitive shock than a bypass. But I have tons of experience with them and they are not for the every day guy. They are very complicated. Most of those mistakes are so right or make it with their desert stuff. It’s not related to the inertia valve.

A lot of the electronic systems now have an inertial sensors because I feel like they understand the benefits.
 
This is one area that seems to have a pretty unique set of circumstances for long travel offroad, which add compromises that make frequency play a less important role than other automotive environments. There were great discussions about frequency back on the old board like a decade ago, but a lot of it seems to have been thrown out the window (to a degree) for a much simpler overall recipe.

Basically what I hear these days if I were to try to throw an overgeneralized blanket statement onto long travel spring choices - (and please, anyone, correct me if i'm wrong or add more detail!) is that you basically try to set up shocks with ~1-2" of preload at full droop (because keeping smooth spring pressure all the way to the end seems significant, versus any sort of tender spring if the primary coils unseat), and the rate simply has to be soft enough to achieve your desired ride height. So if a truck has 10" of droop from ride height and 1,200lbs of sprung mass on that corner, you need a maximum primary wheel rate of 100lb/in (10"+2" of spring compression @ ride height). Then you can't go too much lower in primary rate before running into spring block height limitations (I believe?). So the window of useable spring rates that don't unseat and don't reach block height is pretty limited.

Now, it has been common to run dual rate setups with a step up collar that ramps the spring rate up to the value of the lower coil alone which does throw a wrench in the works as to how much energy is being stored by the springs (to be damped in rebound), but I recently saw note from bdkw1 that it seems dual rate configurations are falling by the wayside (at least on big shocks) as things progress too. bdkw1, do you know if they are hitting block height on the upper spring on those single rate setups, or are they true single rate all the way to bump?

To get away with ignoring spring frequency you need other design considerations or rules-of-thumb that are forcing you to a specific window of rates that work anyway. Which is basically getting the right result by accident. Alternative view is geometry forcing your hand and you having to work around the results.

In the examples above it's your maximum droop that's setting the rate by sag. Motor bikes have a similar method and it works for the same sort of reasons. But if you designed a buggy with 15" of droop all of a sudden those old guidelines and limitations aren't working so well. One way to work around those sort of limitations is with variable rate linkages. But that's getting more complex.

The place we normally see frequency get out of control is badly done lift kits. People or companies using higher spring-rate instead of correct length to add lift. Ending up with a jiggly mess that doesn't ride or handle like it should. The springs usually over-power the shocks and it can do rocking horse impressions. Especially when they get a frequency mis-match front-rear.
 
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Hmmm it looks like I have some reading to do about the what and how of those. Looks like Fox patented it for mountain bike applications in 2004

US7128192B2 - Inertia valve shock absorber - Google Patents

The Fox inertia valves in MTB were used in their "terralogic" front forks and "brain" rear shocks for Specialized. Specialized then made their own Brain suspension and have also used Rockshox to manufacture Brain forks and shocks.

They are only used on compression circuits in MTB. Not rebound.

It's basically a lump of brass held up by a spring that just beats gravity. The lump of brass also blocks the compression ports. Hit a good enough bump and the rest of the bike is shocked upwards, the brass weight stays where it is and the oil port gets uncovered. Result is suspension for the time it takes the brass lump to get back into position and block the port.

IMO they ride like garbage and only exist to sell bikes to people who are scared of suspension.
 
The Fox inertia valves in MTB were used in their "terralogic" front forks and "brain" rear shocks for Specialized. Specialized then made their own Brain suspension and have also used Rockshox to manufacture Brain forks and shocks.

They are only used on compression circuits in MTB. Not rebound.

It's basically a lump of brass held up by a spring that just beats gravity. The lump of brass also blocks the compression ports. Hit a good enough bump and the rest of the bike is shocked upwards, the brass weight stays where it is and the oil port gets uncovered. Result is suspension for the time it takes the brass lump to get back into position and block the port.

IMO they ride like garbage and only exist to sell bikes to people who are scared of suspension.
On the Ricors the marketing theory was that the rebound would differ between chassis movements and suspension movements. The amount of times the chassis is moving up faster than the wheel drops out is pretty small to zero. At least in my mind.
 
On the Ricors the marketing theory was that the rebound would differ between chassis movements and suspension movements. The amount of times the chassis is moving up faster than the wheel drops out is pretty small to zero. At least in my mind.
With a Ricor the chassis moves slow, and the axle is allowed to follow the ground quicker. You are thinking of it backwards.
 
With a Ricor the chassis moves slow, and the axle is allowed to follow the ground quicker. You are thinking of it backwards.
My understanding of it. Wheel drops out the brass weight moves up opening the free bleed port. When the chassis moves the weight stays in place and reb stays stiff. But it's been a few years/beers since I finger fucked one.
 
Tire goes down road. Falls into pothole. Piston moves down, bronze valve stays put opening ports. Decreases tires rebound damping to keep tire on road.

If driving down road, go over hill. Piston does not go down, body goes up. Valve stays closed. Ports stay closed. Lots of rebound damping for chassis control. Truck feels much sportier.

Occasionally, the valve gets confused, like when you have wheel, input and chassis input at the same time. Whenever there is real and put the valve is open. So if you have real input and chassis input, you lose the extra damping on the chassis.
 
Of course wheel and chassis move at very different speeds anyway so you can tune the rebound damping of each just with smarter tuning to shape the rebound curve.

But that's harder to sell than widgets. So we're always going to get more widgets.
 
To get away with ignoring spring frequency you need other design considerations or rules-of-thumb that are forcing you to a specific window of rates that work anyway. Which is basically getting the right result by accident. Alternative view is geometry forcing your hand and you having to work around the results.

In the examples above it's your maximum droop that's setting the rate by sag. Motor bikes have a similar method and it works for the same sort of reasons. But if you designed a buggy with 15" of droop all of a sudden those old guidelines and limitations aren't working so well. One way to work around those sort of limitations is with variable rate linkages. But that's getting more complex.

The place we normally see frequency get out of control is badly done lift kits. People or companies using higher spring-rate instead of correct length to add lift. Ending up with a jiggly mess that doesn't ride or handle like it should. The springs usually over-power the shocks and it can do rocking horse impressions. Especially when they get a frequency mis-match front-rear.

That absolutely makes sense, and I 100% agree these are limitations imposed by chassis design/geometry. It's pretty easy for people to get bad uptravel/downtravel ratios that would call out for some crazy numbers (like having 4" uptravel and 12" of droop on a 16" shock on a light crawler with low sprung weight. Though just gut feeling - it seems like people have started to appreciate uptravel more in trail rigs the last 10 years (besides moon buggies or other purpose built slow speed crawlers). Interesting notes on companies solving ride height changes with spring rate too hah.



I haven't had much to say on inertia valves because I'm just not familiar, so I've been sponging up as much as I can. I appreciate you guys giving the basic rundown on the what/why/how, it's good stuff. And there isn't nearly enough talk about rebound control in general, so it's a double win :beer:

I also have some cool links from a friend relating to inertia valving, pretty interesting conversations (still reading)

Euro car/truck shocks ??'s

They talk about the DETRA system by Donerre, which is described by the company in the below link. I also find it interesting that their graphic shows 3 wheels on the ground on this side of the vehicle. I hadn't even started considering the 6-8 wheeled vehicles, and could absolutely see the added value of an inertia based system when there are more than 4 wheels doing work, because you can have one tire acting very independently of the chassis (and the other 5 or 7 wheels on the ground)

DETRA System | Donerre

Detra data | Donerre

Then starting on post #22 of that Race Dezert thread, Lukethedork bumped it last year with a cool basic overview of some of the devices and their function.

Only part way through the thread now, so I may come back with more of what was said there if it looks interesting
 
Time to bump this thread!

Anyone have any insight on these Nost pump adjusters or their cone valves? A buddy of mine picked up a high end professionally built RS-1 short course car that has Fox shocks equipped with both the pump adjusters and cone valves and he said it's a night and day difference vs his very well tuned Fox's running standard pistons and conventional adjusters. Both sets of shocks were built and tuned by the same guy for reference. If these are as good as he says they are I'd like to have the shocks on my short course car rebuilt and tuned using the Nost parts if I can get my hands on them. Waste of money or are these things really as magical as he makes them out to be?

Video about the adjusters:



Video about the cone valves:

 
Alright now that is some awesome stuff, definitely appreciate the share! The first system seems to control the fluid passing between shock body and reservoir very similar to most of the live valve configs, just with his own special sauce way of doing it. The use of tapered cone seats are pretty rad.

The second one is a complete trip. The pump system that varies the preload on the spring via various drilled ports is cool as hell. I really wish there was a rendering of its operation just so I could see how things synchronize, but I know I'm dreaming on that haha. Curious to see if anyone here has heard much about them
 
Curious to see if anyone here has heard much about them

According to those videos that tech has been around since 2020 or earlier and with some internet research I found that this stuff is widely used in the MX world.

Some links I found but nothing great.....



 
Alright now that is some awesome stuff, definitely appreciate the share! The first system seems to control the fluid passing between shock body and reservoir very similar to most of the live valve configs, just with his own special sauce way of doing it.
Just like all resi adjusters really.
 
Resi adjusters work off shaft displacement. The amount of force you can generate off those is like 15% of what the piston can deliver depending on shaft to piston diameter ratio. Short stroke MX shocks they make a difference. Longer shocks, not as much without creating other problems. The amount of restriction needed to create enough pressure to make a noticeable damping gain is real close to or above the flow potential of the circuit. This is why I'm generally against clickers in the rear unless there is dyno time involved to make sure they don't hydraulic.

That piston looks like a headache. The weight of all those cones will slow down its responsiveness. Springs look expensive to swap and not as easy to fine tune as shims. He also has conflicting statements about fluid flow. If everything is set up perfectly they probably work fine. But without factory level support they are going to go over about as well as Ricors.
 
If everything is set up perfectly they probably work fine. But without factory level support they are going to go over about as well as Ricors.
Sounds like the convos I've had with Ohlins engineers :grinpimp:
 
Time to bump this thread!

Anyone have any insight on these Nost pump adjusters or their cone valves? A buddy of mine picked up a high end professionally built RS-1 short course car that has Fox shocks equipped with both the pump adjusters and cone valves and he said it's a night and day difference vs his very well tuned Fox's running standard pistons and conventional adjusters. Both sets of shocks were built and tuned by the same guy for reference. If these are as good as he says they are I'd like to have the shocks on my short course car rebuilt and tuned using the Nost parts if I can get my hands on them. Waste of money or are these things really as magical as he makes them out to be?

Video about the adjusters:



Video about the cone valves:



First video with the adjuster is showing an adjustable poppet to put a threshold force onto the LSC circuit. Then it's got a separate bleed adjuster.
So you can effectively choose how much force it starts bypassing oil at.

Regarding cone-valves. These have only just hit MTB in what I think is the wrong way done for marketing rather than performance. They've been in Moto for a while, I haven't had anything to do with them personally but I know people who have.
One guy tells me the cone-valve started in Moto forks because mid-valve compression shims in forks were getting bent out of shape on big hits which was causing loss of sealing and loss of rebound damping. Cone valves are immune to that, but so are well designed shim-stacks.......

Function wise they're halfway between a spool and a poppet. Poppets tend to suck (the preload effect gives harshness, then they blow open). I'd much rather have shims because they can do everything the cone-valves are claiming but feature endless tuneability. Getting new springs and cones for cone-valves will likely prove somewhere between hard and impossible.
 
Polvoorde walks through the racing/rebuilding side of the Fox factory and Mike Kim has some cool discussion points. Polvoorde oversimplifies things for my taste, but the rest of the tech and views are solid. Too bad they hide the guts of the RAD live valve, but there are still some interesting views overall. And they were testing a new taller piston that fully blocks off bypass ports instead of having that weird little bleed zone as the piston goes past the port openings

 
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