School me on 9" ratios

[JR4X]

Any idea how the peasant 9" gears compare to each other?

I feel like we had a thread on pbb about this. There seems to be a gap between standard 9" stuff and the the $1200 race gears.

I don’t want this to come off of as scolding but if I’m coming off as too much of an elitist douche bag let me know. If so, I’m maybe not the guy to be tagging for his opinion.

How “peasant” are you talking? I think it’s that peasant talk that makes it so the mid grade stuff doesn’t even make the internet ads. Try finding 35 spline pinion 9” gears on the internet and not end up in 1 of 5 places you already think is out of your price range. Motive and Richmond make them, but find the cheapest place to get them. Summit Jegs and Speedway don’t list them and they should theoretically be the most inexpensive option to build a third.

Not knowing exactly what you have in mind, I’m picturing you putting at a minimum of a Toyota doubler in front of these peasant built 9”s. Even if it just has stock toy gears that’s a 5.2 low range ratio. I think it would be beyond foolish to use a 1.313 28 spline pinion when a 1.875 35 spline pinion is an available option. So IMO the best value in peasant 3rd would be a Yukon pre assembled nodular big pinion which come in at $1500 bucks for a complete diff. I wouldn’t touch a Ford factory case unless you can find an N case for free. If you have to pay for it Yukon or Strange 3.25 cases are a far better value. I think I’ve posted pics of a factory 3rd in the carnage thread showing how the case will break. The pinion support will get pushed forward out of the case busting the whole thing in half. The pinion support will still be bolted to the case half and the flange face will stay bolted to your axle housing. I’ve never seen a $300 dollar Nodular 3rd from any MFG break like the factory ones. These were $300 bucks for 20 years, now they’re edging up to the $400 mark. Strange Engineering N1906 Strange 9 in. Iron Cases | Summit Racing

Or you can get a gearworks load bolt low pinion case for $450. Still stick big pinion 9” gears in them and have a great mid range diff in the $1500 range. That’s a killer value compared to the high pinion stuff which starts at $4K and quickly goes up from there.

3.250" Iron Load Bolt Case - Gearworks Inc.

This case uses 7/16" pinion support bolts and a taller pocket bearing with more load capacity than a standard 9" bearing that is held in by a retainer plate and 3 flat head screws. Fits 9", 9.5" & 10" gears. A large Load Bolt keeps ring gear deflection at bay. The forged chromoly caps are...

gearworksinc.com

 

[JR4X]

Here’s a few pictures from the old place of broken factory cases. The main caps are terrible as well.

 

[chaplinfj60]

wow

 

[94toytruck]

I bought a TG 9" to Toyota pattern flange awhile back cheap on a whim and was kinda surprised how small a stock pinion is.

 

[Wfoyota]

I don’t want this to come off of as scolding but if I’m coming off as too much of an elitist douche bag let me know. If so, I’m maybe not the guy to be tagging for his opinion.

How “peasant” are you talking? I think it’s that peasant talk that makes it so the mid grade stuff doesn’t even make the internet ads. Try finding 35 spline pinion 9” gears on the internet and not end up in 1 of 5 places you already think is out of your price range. Motive and Richmond make them, but find the cheapest place to get them. Summit Jegs and Speedway don’t list them and they should theoretically be the most inexpensive option to build a third.

Not knowing exactly what you have in mind, I’m picturing you putting at a minimum of a Toyota doubler in front of these peasant built 9”s. Even if it just has stock toy gears that’s a 5.2 low range ratio. I think it would be beyond foolish to use a 1.313 28 spline pinion when a 1.875 35 spline pinion is an available option. So IMO the best value in peasant 3rd would be a Yukon pre assembled nodular big pinion which come in at $1500 bucks for a complete diff. I wouldn’t touch a Ford factory case unless you can find an N case for free. If you have to pay for it Yukon or Strange 3.25 cases are a far better value. I think I’ve posted pics of a factory 3rd in the carnage thread showing how the case will break. The pinion support will get pushed forward out of the case busting the whole thing in half. The pinion support will still be bolted to the case half and the flange face will stay bolted to your axle housing. I’ve never seen a $300 dollar Nodular 3rd from any MFG break like the factory ones. These were $300 bucks for 20 years, now they’re edging up to the $400 mark. Strange Engineering N1906 Strange 9 in. Iron Cases | Summit Racing

Or you can get a gearworks load bolt low pinion case for $450. Still stick big pinion 9” gears in them and have a great mid range diff in the $1500 range. That’s a killer value compared to the high pinion stuff which starts at $4K and quickly goes up from there.

3.250" Iron Load Bolt Case - Gearworks Inc.

This case uses 7/16" pinion support bolts and a taller pocket bearing with more load capacity than a standard 9" bearing that is held in by a retainer plate and 3 flat head screws. Fits 9", 9.5" & 10" gears. A large Load Bolt keeps ring gear deflection at bay. The forged chromoly caps are...

gearworksinc.com

This is killer info, thanks!

 

[Sean]

I don’t want this to come off of as scolding but if I’m coming off as too much of an elitist douche bag let me know. If so, I’m maybe not the guy to be tagging for his opinion.

How “peasant” are you talking? I think it’s that peasant talk that makes it so the mid grade stuff doesn’t even make the internet ads. Try finding 35 spline pinion 9” gears on the internet and not end up in 1 of 5 places you already think is out of your price range. Motive and Richmond make them, but find the cheapest place to get them. Summit Jegs and Speedway don’t list them and they should theoretically be the most inexpensive option to build a third.

Not knowing exactly what you have in mind, I’m picturing you putting at a minimum of a Toyota doubler in front of these peasant built 9”s. Even if it just has stock toy gears that’s a 5.2 low range ratio. I think it would be beyond foolish to use a 1.313 28 spline pinion when a 1.875 35 spline pinion is an available option. So IMO the best value in peasant 3rd would be a Yukon pre assembled nodular big pinion which come in at $1500 bucks for a complete diff. I wouldn’t touch a Ford factory case unless you can find an N case for free. If you have to pay for it Yukon or Strange 3.25 cases are a far better value. I think I’ve posted pics of a factory 3rd in the carnage thread showing how the case will break. The pinion support will get pushed forward out of the case busting the whole thing in half. The pinion support will still be bolted to the case half and the flange face will stay bolted to your axle housing. I’ve never seen a $300 dollar Nodular 3rd from any MFG break like the factory ones. These were $300 bucks for 20 years, now they’re edging up to the $400 mark. Strange Engineering N1906 Strange 9 in. Iron Cases | Summit Racing

Or you can get a gearworks load bolt low pinion case for $450. Still stick big pinion 9” gears in them and have a great mid range diff in the $1500 range. That’s a killer value compared to the high pinion stuff which starts at $4K and quickly goes up from there.

3.250" Iron Load Bolt Case - Gearworks Inc.

This case uses 7/16" pinion support bolts and a taller pocket bearing with more load capacity than a standard 9" bearing that is held in by a retainer plate and 3 flat head screws. Fits 9", 9.5" & 10" gears. A large Load Bolt keeps ring gear deflection at bay. The forged chromoly caps are...

gearworksinc.com

I just bought two 28 spline (with the 9" to Toyota flanges) 3rds. ECGS Assembled 9"

Wish I'd read this sooner. They're going in portal front axles though....so maybe it won't be that big of a deal. I mainly went this route to run Toyota drivelines since I've had really good luck with that in that past.

Anyone know what the diameter/spline is on Toyota 8" pinions? If the portal guys aren't breaking those and they're similarly sized, I'd wager these should be okay for my uses. I still have to buy the rear ARB equipped 3rds, so maybe I can get 35 spline pinions for those (though that may necessitate a custom flange if I want to stay with Toyota drivelines). EDIT Looks like the spline count for Toyota 8" is 27 or 29....but I haven't found the diameter*** *EDIT2 Diameter is 1.378"?

 

[Wfoyota]

I just bought two 28 spline (with the 9" to Toyota flanges) 3rds. ECGS Assembled 9"

Wish I'd read this sooner. They're going in portal front axles though....so maybe it won't be that big of a deal. I mainly went this route to run Toyota drivelines since I've had really good luck with that in that past.

Anyone know what the diameter/spline is on Toyota 8" pinions? If the portal guys aren't breaking those and they're similarly sized, I'd wager these should be okay for my uses. I still have to buy the rear ARB equipped 3rds, so maybe I can get 35 spline pinions for those (though that may necessitate a custom flange if I want to stay with Toyota drivelines). EDIT Looks like the spline count for Toyota 8" is 27 or 29....but I haven't found the diameter*** *EDIT2 Diameter is 1.378"?

No help on the size but I only ever broke one toyota pinion in half out of the probably 15 gear sets I broke. Id have zero worry about 28 spline 9 with portals.

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

I think JR4X hit it pretty much spot on. I wish that post came a month or so sooner would have saved me some r&d time.

I ended up going with the gear works LP case and Quick performance 40 spline spools. I will be running Yukon 9" 35 spline R&P but haven't decided on ratio yet.

Yukon seems to own the market on affordable 35 spline 9" gears in deeper ratios. I wasn't able to find another R&P company that offered deeper ratios for a similar price. The ones I did find weren't cheap at all. I would have liked to run 10" gears but Yukon jumps their price to $1500 which seems ridiculous.

Anyone know of a LP 10" 35 spline pinion gear set that doesn't hit or exceed the thousand dollar range? If not I'll be giving the 9" Yukons a shot.

Edit: I'd also like to hear more on what people think about strength between ratios. I haven't geared this buggy out so I could pick the transfer case gear ratio based more around the stronger axle gear ratio if need be.

 

[JR4X]

I’d start with 35 spline big pinion 9 gears and in any ratio to 6.20:1 and not be concerned about the gear strength in that GW load bolt case. My next crawler build will have 6.20’s when I put down the race car.

 

[Treefrog]

What's the thoughts on stuff in the 7.xx range?

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I don’t want this to come off of as scolding but if I’m coming off as too much of an elitist douche bag let me know. If so, I’m maybe not the guy to be tagging for his opinion.

It's all good, only the rock bouncer guys come off that way

How “peasant” are you talking?

Anything sub $500? Last I looked, there was a lot of stuff in the $100-200 range, then some stuff in $200-500. Then obviously the $1200-1500 range for the 10" stuff.

In the grand scheme of things, another $1000 to basically never have to worry about a r&p again in a trail rig isnt that bad.

I think it’s that peasant talk that makes it so the mid grade stuff doesn’t even make the internet ads. Try finding 35 spline pinion 9” gears on the internet and not end up in 1 of 5 places you already think is out of your price range. Motive and Richmond make them, but find the cheapest place to get them. Summit Jegs and Speedway don’t list them and they should theoretically be the most inexpensive option to build a third.

This basically answers my question. I honestly wasnt sure if a $150 6.20 r&p off summit would be fine for a 609 under a toyota.

Not knowing exactly what you have in mind, I’m picturing you putting at a minimum of a Toyota doubler in front of these peasant built 9”s. Even if it just has stock toy gears that’s a 5.2 low range ratio. I think it would be beyond foolish to use a 1.313 28 spline pinion when a 1.875 35 spline pinion is an available option. So IMO the best value in peasant 3rd would be a Yukon pre assembled nodular big pinion which come in at $1500 bucks for a complete diff. I wouldn’t touch a Ford factory case unless you can find an N case for free. If you have to pay for it Yukon or Strange 3.25 cases are a far better value. I think I’ve posted pics of a factory 3rd in the carnage thread showing how the case will break. The pinion support will get pushed forward out of the case busting the whole thing in half. The pinion support will still be bolted to the case half and the flange face will stay bolted to your axle housing. I’ve never seen a $300 dollar Nodular 3rd from any MFG break like the factory ones. These were $300 bucks for 20 years, now they’re edging up to the $400 mark. Strange Engineering N1906 Strange 9 in. Iron Cases | Summit Racing

Or you can get a gearworks load bolt low pinion case for $450. Still stick big pinion 9” gears in them and have a great mid range diff in the $1500 range. That’s a killer value compared to the high pinion stuff which starts at $4K and quickly goes up from there.

3.250" Iron Load Bolt Case - Gearworks Inc.

This case uses 7/16" pinion support bolts and a taller pocket bearing with more load capacity than a standard 9" bearing that is held in by a retainer plate and 3 flat head screws. Fits 9", 9.5" & 10" gears. A large Load Bolt keeps ring gear deflection at bay. The forged chromoly caps are...

gearworksinc.com

I am still surprised at the price of a low pinion gw case. That's exactly what I'd do. Leaves lots of room to upgrade later.

 

[Sean]

I am still surprised at the price of a low pinion gw case. That's exactly what I'd do. Leaves lots of room to upgrade later.

I was shocked at the low price of a completely built 3rd from ECGS with a 5 year unlimited tire size warranty with US Gear gears and what's usually a Moser or Strange chunk, solid spacer, etc. Just wish I'd done a bit more research and paid a little more to upgrade to 35 spline pinion. Live and learn, I guess.

 

[JR4X]

Anything sub $500? Last I looked, there was a lot of stuff in the $100-200 range, then some stuff in $200-500. Then obviously the $1200-1500 range for the 10" stuff.

In the grand scheme of things, another $1000 to basically never have to worry about a r&p again in a trail rig isnt that bad.



This basically answers my question. I honestly wasnt sure if a $150 6.20 r&p off summit would be fine for a 609 under a toyota.

Those $200 dollar R&P’s might work just fine. For what I’m going to do, I don’t trust the small pinion diameter for the full throttle assaults it’s going to see and with 4:1 or 5:1 transfer case.

Remember there’s two different grades of R&P. The cheap “race” ones for circle track are called “soft” gears. They won’t last 100K miles in a street car but they won’t fracture from shock load in the race car. For $200 bucks a set I’d be willing to experiment a lot. I could break and toss 6 cheap ring and pinion sets for the cost of one 10” set. Circle track guys throw them away every year or sooner if they get knife edged. Soft gears are noisy in something quiet. Racers would never hear that so it doesn’t matter, wouldn’t matter if they could hear it.

I was shocked at the low price of a completely built 3rd from ECGS with a 5 year unlimited tire size warranty with US Gear gears and what's usually a Moser or Strange chunk, solid spacer, etc. Just wish I'd done a bit more research and paid a little more to upgrade to 35 spline pinion. Live and learn, I guess.

For your portal axles I wouldn’t worry about it. Had to be better than the Toyota stuff.

I am still surprised at the price of a low pinion gw case. That's exactly what I'd do. Leaves lots of room to upgrade later.

Gearworks is an amazing value. They have bad ass stuff. We just built a new HP 10” front diff to try in dads car with the gearworks equivalent of a Detroit instead of an ARB. Yukon gears cost more than GW ones and the new GW ones come rem polished.

 

[94toytruck]

A few years ago I had said about how well priced GW LP 3rds are. They were cheaper than Yukons comparable offerings at the time. I'm not sure how they compare now price wise however we don't touch their(Yukon) stuff anymore. Judging by what I'm reading Yukon is pushing their prices higher than Hunter Biden still.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Man this is great stuff all around, both the questions and answers.

I have a question that's a half related side tangent, but this feels like the best place for -

The stock 9" carrier bearing diameters were 2.89" (28 spline) and 3.063" (31 spline). The aftermarket came up with 3.25" bearings and it became a widely accepted standard to allow 35 spline lockers to come about. These days I've seen note that even bigger carrier bearings are being run, gearworks having two 3.812" cases and one 4" trophy truck case:

3.812" Iron Load Bolt Case - Gearworks Inc.
4" Trophy Truck Case (UPDATED!) - Gearworks Inc. (From the 4" case description, it seems like they run 2.375" and 2.562" carrier bearing seat diameters)

Are either of these (and the associated lockers) any sort of standard across multiple manufacturers, or is everyone going down their own path?
What do True Hi 9 and the Mega Hi 9 run? Tubeworks?

 

[YotaAtieToo]

A few years ago I had said about how well priced GW LP 3rds are. They were cheaper than Yukons comparable offerings at the time. I'm not sure how they compare now price wise however we don't touch their(Yukon) stuff anymore. Judging by what I'm reading Yukon is pushing their prices higher than Hunter Biden still.

Looks like a non load bolt 35 spline capable yukon 3rd is $354

9" Ford Yukon Nodular Iron Center Section Case / Third Member - 3.25" - Package | eBay

Yukon Nodular Iron Pro N-Case - 3.25" (YP DOF9-2-325). Yukon Koozie. 9" Ford Center Section Kit. (10) Housing / Center Section Studs, Nuts, & Washers. ( 5) Pinion Support to Center Section Bolts.

www.ebay.com

But it does come with a pinion support

Thier load bolt housing is $600-700 with no pinion support.

The gw housing is a no Brainer to me

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Those $200 dollar R&P’s might work just fine. For what I’m going to do, I don’t trust the small pinion diameter for the full throttle assaults it’s going to see and with 4:1 or 5:1 transfer case.

I get it, I think we've all wheeled long enough to know that having a couple hundred dollar cheaper part fail on a big trip is not only a bummer but financially doesn't make sense when you have $1000s into time off, fuel, hotels, etc. Not even talking Racing

Remember there’s two different grades of R&P. The cheap “race” ones for circle track are called “soft” gears. They won’t last 100K miles in a street car but they won’t fracture from shock load in the race car. For $200 bucks a set I’d be willing to experiment a lot. I could break and toss 6 cheap ring and pinion sets for the cost of one 10” set. Circle track guys throw them away every year or sooner if they get knife edged. Soft gears are noisy in something quiet. Racers would never hear that so it doesn’t matter, wouldn’t matter if they could hear it.

The cheap circle track gears are interesting for a typical trail rig. Softer to help with shock load. Worst case, you break ot down the road, full bling 10" stuff is an option.

For your portal axles I wouldn’t worry about it. Had to be better than the Toyota stuff.



Gearworks is an amazing value. They have bad ass stuff. We just built a new HP 10” front diff to try in dads car with the gearworks equivalent of a Detroit instead of an ARB. Yukon gears cost more than GW ones and the new GW ones come rem polished.

Nice when a company just charges the appropriate price instead of inflating it because they spend all their money on marketing.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Remember there’s two different grades of R&P. The cheap “race” ones for circle track are called “soft” gears. They won’t last 100K miles in a street car but they won’t fracture from shock load in the race car. For $200 bucks a set I’d be willing to experiment a lot. I could break and toss 6 cheap ring and pinion sets for the cost of one 10” set. Circle track guys throw them away every year or sooner if they get knife edged. Soft gears are noisy in something quiet. Racers would never hear that so it doesn’t matter, wouldn’t matter if they could hear it.

I've always wished you could get soft gears for Dana HP axles since the ring and pinion is typically a weak point in the small ones. Most people are running them as fronts so they only ever see load part time so they'd last plenty long enough.

I get it, I think we've all wheeled long enough to know that having a couple hundred dollar cheaper part fail on a big trip is not only a bummer but financially doesn't make sense when you have $1000s into time off, fuel, hotels, etc. Not even talking Racing

This is the wheeling equivilent of the asshole with the $1k trap gun telling people not to bother with a mossberg maverick.

Not everyone is vacation wheeling.

 

[JR4X]

I've always wished you could get soft gears for Dana HP axles since the ring and pinion is typically a weak point in the small ones. Most people are running them as fronts so they only ever see load part time so they'd last plenty long enough.

I’d never thought about it but I guess they only make soft gears for car axles that would’ve been used in circle track or drag racing. Pretty sure they make soft 10 bolt GM gears.

This is the wheeling equivilent of the asshole with the $1k trap gun telling people not to bother with a mossberg maverick.

I acknowledge this. We’re probably a little too out of touch with the trail wheeler. We currently have 10 Mega or gearworks diffs in rotation. There’s 4 of them in our scrap pile that are obliterated. 3 of those had comp ARB in them.

I’ve got some nice Currie rockjocks I’d make someone a killer deal on. Paid $15K for them new, would take $5k.

 

[YJ4Rox]

Who is running a 6.20 and what transmission and transfer case ratios ar why running? I’m going to agree with Fleshy and say ‘crawl ratio they want’ is the reason for 6.20s.

im running 6.20 Low pinion. TH350 and a 5:1 atlas. 43 sticky SX.
Why.... because 4 banger.

 

[JR4X]

im running 6.20 Low pinion. TH350 and a 5:1 atlas. 43 sticky SX.
Why.... because 4 banger.

What 4 banger? And what low pinion cases?

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I've always wished you could get soft gears for Dana HP axles since the ring and pinion is typically a weak point in the small ones. Most people are running them as fronts so they only ever see load part time so they'd last plenty long enough.


This is the wheeling equivilent of the asshole with the $1k trap gun telling people not to bother with a mossberg maverick.

Not everyone is vacation wheeling.

I get that, but if you spend $200 on a part that fails and ends even a day trip, it's still wasted money. Then you probably still end up buying the $500 part.

Your example is bad since a mossberg isnt goimg to fail

I’d never thought about it but I guess they only make soft gears for car axles that would’ve been used in circle track or drag racing. Pretty sure they make soft 10 bolt GM gears.


I acknowledge this. We’re probably a little too out of touch with the trail wheeler. We currently have 10 Mega or gearworks diffs in rotation. There’s 4 of them in our scrap pile that are obliterated. 3 of those had comp ARB in them.

I’ve got some nice Currie rockjocks I’d make someone a killer deal on. Paid $15K for them new, would take $5k.

What's the specs on the axles?

 

[YJ4Rox]

What 4 banger? And what low pinion cases?

Chevy LE5 Ecotec with a K04 turbo.
Currie 9+ race case 3.25

I had the currie case on the shelf forever so thats what i used. If i would have been starting from scratch I would have went with the GW LP.

 

[JR4X]

I get that, but if you spend $200 on a part that fails and ends even a day trip, it's still wasted money. Then you probably still end up buying the $500 part.

Your example is bad since a mossberg isnt goimg to fail



What's the specs on the axles?

Text sent so as not to muddy up a 9” thread with D60 stuff

 

[posford]

This is the wheeling equivilent of the asshole with the $1k trap gun telling people not to bother with a mossberg maverick.

Not everyone is vacation wheeling.

Shitting a R&P on a glorified fire road isn't a big deal, but you'd be hard pressed to get that failure in those conditions.

Shit a R&P on a real rock trail (even by New England standards) and have to get drug all the way out OR have to pay to get someone with a real rowdy rig to tow you out, you'll be out more than the difference in gear sets

 

[94toytruck]

Shitting a R&P on a glorified fire road isn't a big deal, but you'd be hard pressed to get that failure in those conditions.

Shit a R&P on a real rock trail (even by New England standards) and have to get drug all the way out OR have to pay to get someone with a real rowdy rig to tow you out, you'll be out more than the difference in gear sets

I've piggy backed rigs out of some shit, people don't know how bad this can be till they've done it.

 

[arse_sidewards]

Shitting a R&P on a glorified fire road isn't a big deal, but you'd be hard pressed to get that failure in those conditions

I agree.

Shit a R&P on a real rock trail (even by New England standards) and you spend a day winching and then drive home in FWD.

Fixed. It's the same situation as losing an axle shaft with a limited slip diff or a drive shaft you don't have a spare for.

You're gonna break something. And if that something is something you don't have a spare for the result is more or less the same.

 

[posford]

I agree.


Fixed. It's the same situation as losing an axle shaft with a limited slip diff or a drive shaft you don't have a spare for.

You're gonna break something. And if that something is something you don't have a spare for the result is more or less the same.

So you cheap out on gears but your winch/alternator/battery is up for hours long winchfest? Doubt.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Dude has never actually crawled rocks, just think he knows better all of us

 

[arse_sidewards]

So you cheap out on gears but your winch/alternator/battery is up for hours long winchfest? Doubt.

You're talking to someone who manages to use the (formerly) $10 HF grinders for 90% of his use without smoking them.

Just don't be a dumbass and get overzealous with the duty cycle and it'll be fine.


Money isn't infinite except in the mind of desert dwelling tweakers (moving to Idaho doesn't change your roots) who think they know how to build everyone else's rig. There's dozens of points of failure that can be a real bitch. A spare for most of it is a non-starter because that's dozens of spares. You gotta look at what you are and aren't likely to break. Unless you're talking comp use where bling shafts are kind of a given and shock loading is plentiful or a small axle that's had all the turd polishing done that weakest link is unlikely to be the ring and pinion.

Dude has never actually crawled rocks, just think he knows better all of us

I know better than you. But that's a low bar.