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Russia / Ukraine thread

Icono said:
Wasn't a deliberate attack, even if Poland's "wanting to help" is them wanting to take back their "old" territory, sneakingly.

Wouldn't be the first time Poland misreads geopolitics. :laughing:


Here's the attack map from yesterday.

1668598404615.png


Przewodow is the site where Russia attacked and the stray "failed" UKR counter went a little south, err West, I guess.

Russia hitting that far west was flexing a little bit, huh?
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Since they were Ukraine Missiles, does that mean the UN is going to invade Poland?
 
Icono said:
Wasn't a deliberate attack, even if Poland's "wanting to help" is them wanting to take back their "old" territory, sneakingly.

Wouldn't be the first time Poland misreads geopolitics. :laughing:

Here's the attack map from yesterday.

1668598404615.png


Przewodow is the site where Russia attacked and the stray "failed" UKR counter went a little south, err West, I guess.

Russia hitting that far west was flexing a little bit, huh?
Click to expand...

Unless these missile attacks are followed up with a ground offensive; they're not going to accomplish much, long term.🤔
 
Serious question to the if this escalates nukes will happen crowd. You have to assume nukes are a last ditch effort by everyone evolved, anywhere that's nuked turns into scrubland. If you have any hope of taking an objective without nukes why use nukes? The only way I see Russia using nukes is if they retreat and use it as cover so to speak but even then that is to admit defeat.

I just don't see it, its just media fear mongering.
 
Pocahontas said:
Serious question to the if this escalates nukes will happen crowd. You have to assume nukes are a last ditch effort by everyone evolved, anywhere that's nuked turns into scrubland. If you have any hope of taking an objective without nukes why use nukes? The only way I see Russia using nukes is if they retreat and use it as cover so to speak but even then that is to admit defeat.

I just don't see it, its just media fear mongering.
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I think that if we go full nato vs russia/china shit has the possibility of going real bad. nobody wants to nuke the planet, but you can't rely on that 100%. Best to try and avoid that even being considered as a logical next step for anyone.

so while the probability is very slim, it's still a possibility ya know?
 
It is almost surreal to read about this war, and right next to that story, read that the Artemis project just headed to the moon in the first step of a multi year mission to establish a manned outpost on the moon, as well as a permanent space station orbiting the moon.
Just crazy!
 
Pocahontas said:
Serious question to the if this escalates nukes will happen crowd. You have to assume nukes are a last ditch effort by everyone evolved, anywhere that's nuked turns into scrubland. If you have any hope of taking an objective without nukes why use nukes? The only way I see Russia using nukes is if they retreat and use it as cover so to speak but even then that is to admit defeat.

I just don't see it, its just media fear mongering.
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IIRC it is in Russian policy to use nukes if they are at a point where they have significant fighting along the border and are losing badly to force everybody to step back while they can regroup and hopefully come back and beat them.

Aaron Z
 
87manche said:
I think that if we go full nato vs russia/china shit has the possibility of going real bad. nobody wants to nuke the planet, but you can't rely on that 100%. Best to try and avoid that even being considered as a logical next step for anyone.

so while the probability is very slim, it's still a possibility ya know?
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Thats how I see it as well. It just seems like every other time I see anyone talking about the Russian/Ukraine war its always about nukes.

aczlan said:
IIRC it is in Russian policy to use nukes if they are at a point where they have significant fighting along the border and are losing badly to force everybody to step back while they can regroup and hopefully come back and beat them.

Aaron Z
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That makes sense and I think any nuclear country if on the back foot would consider a defensive nuke to buy themselves time to regroup. Maybe because I don't pay attention to the news that much but I don't think Russia is anywhere near that defensive/desperate at this point in time.
 
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One of the things that was well known and accepted during the Cold War was that any direct military engagement between Russia and the U.S. eventually goes nuclear so you might as well go first and try to get the jump. This current attitude of "Well, maybe we can have a bit of war with Russia and it'll be fine. They'll just take their ass whooping and never reach for that button." is just fucking dumb IMO.
 
east_beast said:
One of the things that was well known and accepted during the Cold War was that any direct military engagement between Russia and the U.S. eventually goes nuclear so you might as well go first and try to get the jump. This current attitude of "Well, maybe we can have a bit of war with Russia and it'll be fine. They'll just take their ass whooping and never reach for that button." is just fucking dumb IMO.
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The difference back then was it was existential.

Everyone on both sides now knows the war's just a swat to tell them to stay out of the cookie jar.

Now, if Ukr beats them, and heads for Moscow...
 
subybaja said:
The difference back then was it was existential.

Everyone on both sides now knows the war's just a swat to tell them to stay out of the cookie jar.

Now, if Ukr beats them, and heads for Moscow...
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Or looks like they're going to take back Crimea and the other parts of Ukraine that Russia helped break away a few years back...

Aaron Z
 
subybaja said:
The difference back then was it was existential.

Everyone on both sides now knows the war's just a swat to tell them to stay out of the cookie jar.

Now, if Ukr beats them, and heads for Moscow...
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You're not wrong.

But UKR doing anything? lmfao. Not even fucking close. And it never has been.

This isn't about territory, as many people already know.

The ground war is the fourth objective on the menu.

The top 2 have been accomplished.

The 3rd is how far the rest of it will show itself after this Winter.
 
Icono said:
You're not wrong.

But UKR doing anything? lmfao. Not even fucking close. And it never has been.

This isn't about territory, as many people already know.

The ground war is the fourth objective on the menu.

The top 2 have been accomplished.

The 3rd is how far the rest of it will show itself after this Winter.
Click to expand...

And these objectives are?
 
I just don't understand what we're doing here. Support Ukraine. Sure. Yeah, we did that. We did the hell out of that. It can't be a blank check forever. We're spending a shit ton of money while flirting with this turning into something far bigger. The concern about Russia running through Europe like Hitler was always way overstated and proved in hindsight to be utterly ridiculous with Russia barely able to even make a dent in Ukraine. Once Ukraine assassinated a Russian citizen in Moscow with a car bomb we should've had some very tough conversations with them. Further aid is going to be significantly restricted and dependent on engaging in diplomatic efforts. Do I really give a fuck about Ukrainian territorial sovereignty? Honestly, no. As far as I'm concerned have an international committee oversee a legit vote in those territories and let the citizens choose. Russia or Ukraine. Run the votes. Sign the papers. Sorry, I'm just not willing to keep pouring tens of billions of dollars, shit tons of arms that are going to end up only God knows where, and flirting with WW3 over who controls the Crimean Peninsula and some provinces currently considered eastern Ukraine.
 
east_beast said:
I just don't understand what we're doing here. Support Ukraine. Sure. Yeah, we did that. We did the hell out of that. It can't be a blank check forever. We're spending a shit ton of money while flirting with this turning into something far bigger. The concern about Russia running through Europe like Hitler was always way overstated and proved in hindsight to be utterly ridiculous with Russia barely able to even make a dent in Ukraine. Once Ukraine assassinated a Russian citizen in Moscow with a car bomb we should've had some very tough conversations with them. Further aid is going to be significantly restricted and dependent on engaging in diplomatic efforts. Do I really give a fuck about Ukrainian territorial sovereignty? Honestly, no. As far as I'm concerned have an international committee oversee a legit vote in those territories and let the citizens choose. Russia or Ukraine. Run the votes. Sign the papers. Sorry, I'm just not willing to keep pouring tens of billions of dollars, shit tons of arms that are going to end up only God knows where, and flirting with WW3 over who controls the Crimean Peninsula and some provinces currently considered eastern Ukraine.
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Money laundering for the Obiden crime family and Democrat Party.
 
watching the german news.

"even if this was a ukrainian missile that fell in poland tuesday, let's not forget that this is still russia's fault for firing missiles so dangerously close to the polish border"

yeah, but apparently russia's shit hit it's target, so I guess they weren't the ones that presented a danger to poland after all right?
 
87manche said:
watching the german news.

"even if this was a ukrainian missile that fell in poland tuesday, let's not forget that this is still russia's fault for firing missiles so dangerously close to the polish border"

yeah, but apparently russia's shit hit it's target, so I guess they weren't the ones that presented a danger to poland after all right?
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It's the old line about a cop shooting a kid in the street because an armed bank robber was across the road, so the robber gets charged with the homicide.

Same thing, but international.
 

Sweden: Traces of Explosives Found in 'Gross Sabotage' of NordStream​


Investigators found traces of explosives at the Baltic Sea site where two natural gas pipelines were damaged in an act of "gross sabotage," the prosecutor leading Sweden's preliminary investigation said Friday.

Mats Ljungqvist of the Swedish Prosecution Authority said the investigators carefully documented the area where the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines ruptured in September, causing significant methane leaks. The parallel undersea pipelines run from Russia to Germany.

"Analysis carried out shows traces of explosives on several of the foreign objects that were found" at the site, Ljungqvist said in a statement.

The prosecution authority said the preliminary investigation was "very complex and comprehensive" and further scrutiny would show whether anyone could be charged "with suspicion of crime."

Investigators in Sweden, Denmark and Germany are looking into what happened. Danish officials confirmed in October that there was extensive damage to the pipelines caused by "powerful explosions."

The leaks, which stopped after several days, occurred in international waters but within the exclusive economic zones of Denmark and Sweden. Investigators have not given indications of whom they think might be responsible but reported earlier the blasts were likely to have involved several hundred pounds of explosives.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Friday it was "very important to find those who are behind the explosion."

Sweden's findings of "a sabotage act or a terrorist act – you can call it whatever you like" confirm "the information that the Russian side has had," Peskov said. Moscow needs to wait for a full damage assessment to decide whether to repair the pipelines, he said.
Nord Stream 1 carried Russian gas to Germany until Moscow cut off supplies at the end of August. Nord Stream 2 never entered service as Germany suspended its certification process shortly before Russia invaded Ukraine in February.
The governments of Denmark, Germany and Sweden have refrained from speculating over who might be behind the sabotage, saying only that there is no sufficient proof yet to identify the perpetrator.
"We have no information on possible initiators of this act of sabotage," German Chancellor Olaf Scholz’s spokesman, Steffen Hebestreit, said at a regular government news conference in Berlin on Friday.
But some Nordic and other European media outlets have pointed a finger of blame on Moscow, hosting military experts suggesting Russia has all the resources to carry out such a precise attack requiring careful advance planning.
Fatih Birol, head of the International Energy Agency, said late September it was "very obvious" who was responsible of the pipeline sabotage, suggesting Russia’s involvement.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has accused the West of blowing up the pipelines and singled out the United States as profiting from attacks on Europe's energy infrastructure.
Earlier this week, Germany marked the completion of port facilities for the first of five planned liquefied natural gas terminals it is scrambling to get running as it replaces the Russian pipeline gas that once accounted for more than half its supplies.





© Copyright 2022 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
 
bigun said:

Sweden: Traces of Explosives Found in 'Gross Sabotage' of NordStream​


Investigators found traces of explosives at the Baltic Sea site where two natural gas pipelines were damaged in an act of "gross sabotage," the prosecutor leading Sweden's preliminary investigation said Friday.

Mats Ljungqvist of the Swedish Prosecution Authority said the investigators carefully documented the area where the Nord Stream 1 and 2 pipelines ruptured in September, causing significant methane leaks. The parallel undersea pipelines run from Russia to Germany.

"Analysis carried out shows traces of explosives on several of the foreign objects that were found" at the site, Ljungqvist said in a statement.

The prosecution authority said the preliminary investigation was "very complex and comprehensive" and further scrutiny would show whether anyone could be charged "with suspicion of crime."

Investigators in Sweden, Denmark and Germany are looking into what happened. Danish officials confirmed in October that there was extensive damage to the pipelines caused by "powerful explosions."

The leaks, which stopped after several days, occurred in international waters but within the exclusive economic zones of Denmark and Sweden. Investigators have not given indications of whom they think might be responsible but reported earlier the blasts were likely to have involved several hundred pounds of explosives.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Friday it was "very important to find those who are behind the explosion."

Sweden's findings of "a sabotage act or a terrorist act – you can call it whatever you like" confirm "the information that the Russian side has had," Peskov said. Moscow needs to wait for a full damage assessment to decide whether to repair the pipelines, he said.
Nord Stream 1 carried Russian gas to Germany until Moscow cut off supplies at the end of August. Nord Stream 2 never entered service as Germany suspended its certification process shortly before Russia invaded Ukraine in February.
The governments of Denmark, Germany and Sweden have refrained from speculating over who might be behind the sabotage, saying only that there is no sufficient proof yet to identify the perpetrator.
"We have no information on possible initiators of this act of sabotage," German Chancellor Olaf Scholz’s spokesman, Steffen Hebestreit, said at a regular government news conference in Berlin on Friday.
But some Nordic and other European media outlets have pointed a finger of blame on Moscow, hosting military experts suggesting Russia has all the resources to carry out such a precise attack requiring careful advance planning.
Fatih Birol, head of the International Energy Agency, said late September it was "very obvious" who was responsible of the pipeline sabotage, suggesting Russia’s involvement.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has accused the West of blowing up the pipelines and singled out the United States as profiting from attacks on Europe's energy infrastructure.
Earlier this week, Germany marked the completion of port facilities for the first of five planned liquefied natural gas terminals it is scrambling to get running as it replaces the Russian pipeline gas that once accounted for more than half its supplies.





© Copyright 2022 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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Has someone's internet been down? :laughing:
 
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