Treefrog
Book Wheeler
LiftLaws.com - Is Full Hydro Steering Street Legal?
LiftLaws.com answers the question of whether or not full hydro (fully hydraulic) steering is street legal.
www.liftlaws.com
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Overcrawling Buggy Design - Trail Rig
- Thread starter BioHazard2222
- Start date
BioHazard2222
Well-known member
Looks like technically it IS legal here... just "Not Recommended" if driving on the streets as it is not as safe... so more thinking to do I suppose
HYDRODYNAMIC
Rock Stacker
Off topic but do the electric cars how hydraulic assist or electric assist and if they are electric are they full electric without a mechanical linkage just like full hydraulic. Might change the future laws regarding mechanical linkage for road use.
TheNorthernHoser
New member
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2020
- Member Number
- 1852
- Messages
- 4
I believe they are electric assist, with mechanical linkage. I can't talk for the tesla's be all the other ones I've seen are like that.
RE: steering...
I really like the idea of the "4500 class steering" for a street driven wheeler. It's still a full mechanical connection for road feel and accurate center position, but with the power of a DE cylinder.
We have an expert on the system on this forum, if I was building a rig from scratch I would absolutely include this style steering if it was going to see any street mileage.
irate4x4.com
I really like the idea of the "4500 class steering" for a street driven wheeler. It's still a full mechanical connection for road feel and accurate center position, but with the power of a DE cylinder.
We have an expert on the system on this forum, if I was building a rig from scratch I would absolutely include this style steering if it was going to see any street mileage.
DE ram with steering box AKA 4500 class steering migration
Going to try to resurrect some tech as it’s relevance has come up again. Lots has changed since I started doing this 7 years ago. I’ve stopped trying to help people build boxes through text and email. My brother and I can build boxes all day and not have problems. Most everyone I’ve tried to...
irate4x4.com
BioHazard2222
Well-known member
Man there is a TON of info on that other thread... thank you for sharing, I will read/learn/gleanRE: steering...
I really like the idea of the "4500 class steering" for a street driven wheeler. It's still a full mechanical connection for road feel and accurate center position, but with the power of a DE cylinder.
We have an expert on the system on this forum, if I was building a rig from scratch I would absolutely include this style steering if it was going to see any street mileage.
DE ram with steering box AKA 4500 class steering migration
Going to try to resurrect some tech as it’s relevance has come up again. Lots has changed since I started doing this 7 years ago. I’ve stopped trying to help people build boxes through text and email. My brother and I can build boxes all day and not have problems. Most everyone I’ve tried to...
I've dug into it a bit, it's a very cool design that's simple in theory but apparently difficult to match all the parts and tune it correctly.
BioHazard2222
Well-known member
That is what I am gathering from the thread... sounds awesome in theory.. will read more
HYDRODYNAMIC
Rock Stacker
Had a friend send me these. Reminded me of what you are working on. While odd looking it has some cool features. Air bags on the links. Rack on the front axle. Owner wants to race it in the NORRA in Baja.
BioHazard2222
Well-known member
That thing is wild... a bit wonky looking, but maybe very functional... but it seems like you can glean something from everything.
I had a super busy last week or so and haven't got much done, but have started to rework the suspension, and some frame elements. Also decided to go with a LS powerplant and many suggested. ill have some drawings up hopefully soon.
Thanks for sharing those pics!!! wonder if they ever raced and how they did?
.
so many questions
ScottRS
Not @Rockstomper today
And the longer I look, the more questions I have. I see U4, SCORE, Dakar, and Eurotrials influences, all rolled up together, and then built by Oshkosh. It looks durable, at least. I'm curious what all the switches are for though, unless he's got one for every individual light, every fan, every pump... that's a lot of stuff on the dash.
vetteboy79
It's bent. #ttb
If you zoom in on the picture, yes. Left headlight, right headlight, oil cooler 1, oil cooler 2, rad fan 1, rad fan 2, rad fan center, air comp 1, air comp 2...holy hell. My 4500 buggy has 8 switches and 3 of them are 'Aux' for whatever random crap I might need to wire in/trail fix at some point.
I'm one of those weirdos that actually enjoys wiring, but I also enjoy simplicity in both operation and troubleshooting...
BioHazard2222
Well-known member
Any Idea if the owner of this has anything posted about his vehicle? some very interesting things there... would love to know more about it.
ScottRS
Not @Rockstomper today
I suppose if you're philosophically opposed to relays and need to stay within the amp ratings of each switch, that could work. My mental video of trying to deal with that while bouncing over whoops, isn't great. But I'm also a bit of an automation geek, so if I can have the computer handle it, I'll do that.
properly strapped in i do see how a normal human reaches those switches.
vetteboy79
It's bent. #ttb
Exactly.
My fan switch is a 3-position, with one momentary spot. All the way back the ECU does all the fan work. Middle, fan always on. Up (momentary), fan bypassed. Did that so there's never a situation where I 'forget' to turn the fan on, but if I want it on it's there, or if I need to kill it to hear something/water crossing/reduce startup amps etc I can, momentarily. For 99% of wheeling the fan isn't even on my mind.
pennsylvaniaboy
make fullsizes great again
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2020
- Member Number
- 2192
- Messages
- 900
No offense but it looks like your model more than most buggies. Yours, Dan Dibbles, and Soni Honegger scorpion all have similar lines and looks IMO. Like a tube buggy H1 hummer....
BioHazard2222
Well-known member
Yea there is a lot of similarities with them all, no offense taken, there are some elements of all of these that I personally like for the "Usability" factor. granted it is not the norm design or look.
BioHazard2222
Well-known member
A bit of an update here.
You guys see stuff I have missed or messed up?
Thank you for any input
- Worked numbers in Link Calc to where I think they are pretty good. (open to input)
- Switched to 3-link in front to accommodate steering box that will be used. (Panhard bar not displayed).
- Changed up the subframe to be specific to suspension and make a boat-side are for links to attach (Still have to draw in crossmembers)
- Switched over to LS power from SBC
- Mocked up the TH400 and Transfer case, (The T-Case in not the correct one, but size and rotation is just about right here for representation)
- Still drawn with 37" tires, but will likely move to 40's in future.
- Dropped the trans tunnel as far down as I could, almost gone in-between back seats.
- I think the boat-side framework will allow area to run exhaust out of tunnel but still be protected.
- The plan is to make panels for sides, hood, roof and floor of course.
- Adjusted rear down tubes to not interfere with rear seat occupants.
You guys see stuff I have missed or messed up?
Thank you for any input
ScottRS
Not @Rockstomper today
T-case clocking has you leaving a lot of room between the trans/engine pans and the belly. That in turn will consume more interior space and engine bay space. Additionally, your rear driveshaft angle looks... rough. I would suggest you consider clocking the case higher, dropping the case down, probably will end up tipping the powertrain back a bit, and lowering the whole thing a little. I'm thinking clock-n-drop the T-case about 4-6" from where it is, drop the engine about 2-4", and see how you like that. Your rear axle looks like it's upside-down as well, flipping it right-side-up will make the driveshaft angles worse. I'd suggest that you get front tires in there, steered to full lock, and cycle the suspension, I think you're going to have some rub issues with the frame where it is, as wide as it is, at the back of the tires when steered.
BioHazard2222
Well-known member
Thank you ScottRS, I will look into the clocking of my t-case and adjusting drivetrain angles... I totally missed that 14B is upside down, hahahaha Ill fix that.
Also will work on figuring out how to draw/cycle suspension to look for frame rub.
Thank you again for the suggestions and pointers
Treefrog
Book Wheeler
The 4 link calc can help with driveline angles as well. You may want to model in the panhard, clearance with the front diff may be a problem. Its why Jeeps use bent ones. All that matters geometry wise is the endpoints.
The easiest way to allow you to cycle the suspension digitally is as follows; its not the most convenient or accurate way and it will only show one point at a time, but it is the easiest.
The panhard is considered to be a link.
I tried to keep this as dumbed down, step by step, and generic as possible because I intend to copy it over to the linked suspension bible for the broader internet, so don't take it personally.
In your case, you may want to model the axles using the ones you already have, this will let you check for pinion clearance with the engine. Also watch the front upper link and the turned tire.
The easiest way to allow you to cycle the suspension digitally is as follows; its not the most convenient or accurate way and it will only show one point at a time, but it is the easiest.
The panhard is considered to be a link.
- Links: Model the link as a solid circular bar running from one point to the other. The diameter should be the OD of the tube you plan to use for this link
- Extend each end of the link by 1/2 the diameter from step 1
- Fillet the edge by the same amount as it was extended in step 2. This should result in a hemisphere end
- Repeat for all links.
- Shocks: Create a cylinder that is is 1/2 the height of its diameter.
- Fillet the edges of this cylinder so that it also forms a hemisphere.
- As a new part, create a cylinder that is the same diameter as the max diameter of your shock or coilover. The length is the maximum extended length of the shock.
- Rear Axle: Create a box with the side lengths matching the diameter of your axle tube. The length of this box is 1/2 the distance between your tires
- Add a cylinders to the end of the cylinder from step 8 that are the same size as your tires.
- Front axle: Create a box with the side lengths matching the diameter of your axle tube. The length of this box is 1/2 the distance between the points formed by the intersection of the line between the ball joints or kingpins and the axle centerline.
- Create a cylinder at an angle going out the distance from the pivot point to the outside of the tire. The angle is the same amount as the steering angle. For more accuracy match the caster and king pin angle as well.
- Extend this cylinder back towards the pivot such that it has the same width as the wheel.
- Both axles: Mirror using the flat part of the axle tube. This should result in a dumbbell shape for the rear and a bent dumbbell in the front.
- Create a cylinder going from the box to the suspension mounting point. The diameter of the cylinder does not matter.
- Extend the cylinder by its radius and fillet to create a hemisphere end
- Repeat for all link and shock mounting points on axles
- Frame: Create spheres at all links and shock points. Ground these spheres in place
- Mates: * All following mates are concentric/ball mates unless noted. Different CAD programs may do this portion differently. * Mate the round link ends from steps 1-4 to the frame spheres from step 17
- Mate the other ball end of the link to the corresponding hemisphere on the axle
- Repeat for all links, it may help to drag the link to its rough orientation before performing the second mate
- Mate the hemisphere from step 9 to the axle shock hemisphere.
- Mate a second hemisphere from step 9 to the frame shock ball
- Mate the end of the cylinder from step 7 to the frame side hemisphere
- Mate the flat sides of the hemispheres from steps 22 and 23. Set the mate offset to the shock length at ride Take note of where the value for offsetting the matting surfaces is. This is how you will cycle the suspension.
I tried to keep this as dumbed down, step by step, and generic as possible because I intend to copy it over to the linked suspension bible for the broader internet, so don't take it personally.
In your case, you may want to model the axles using the ones you already have, this will let you check for pinion clearance with the engine. Also watch the front upper link and the turned tire.
ScottRS
Not @Rockstomper today
I'll throw out a few more bits that you may or may not want because these are getting into looks more than function.
If you like what I suggested previously, and you drop the engine some, that will also free up some room to sneak the engine back a little if you want to, improving your front axle link clearance in the process.
That will in turn free you up room to rock the radiator back, lowering its top, which you can use to lower the nose and improve visibility.
I would use that space to lower everything above the middle of the doors (windowsills, roof, hood line, floor, seats, etc) just a bit, it'll look sleeker, faster, and in truth you'll lose little-if-any cargo capacity or interior space. Moving weight down will also make it more stable but I'm not talking about moving a lot of weight, or moving it far, so the impact of that will be small.
You've mentioned street-legal-tagging this. Does your state have a reasonable route to do that with a homemade car? Do you have an insurance company that will touch such a thing? If you can't answer yes to both, you're going to want to find a way to integrate enough of something OEM, to claim it, and this doesn't look like anything at present. I couldn't answer yes on the state side of it, which is a significant chunk of why I now have a buggy carcass in my back yard and a "Jeep" in my driveway. The state saw a picture of the buggy, I said "I want to tag this" and they said "get bent". Didn't matter what modifications I was willing to make (it already had lights, signals, seatbelts, horn, it was a legit afternoon worth of work from as street-legal-to-the-letter as my Jeep is), no way, not happening, will not issue title.
If you like what I suggested previously, and you drop the engine some, that will also free up some room to sneak the engine back a little if you want to, improving your front axle link clearance in the process.
That will in turn free you up room to rock the radiator back, lowering its top, which you can use to lower the nose and improve visibility.
I would use that space to lower everything above the middle of the doors (windowsills, roof, hood line, floor, seats, etc) just a bit, it'll look sleeker, faster, and in truth you'll lose little-if-any cargo capacity or interior space. Moving weight down will also make it more stable but I'm not talking about moving a lot of weight, or moving it far, so the impact of that will be small.
You've mentioned street-legal-tagging this. Does your state have a reasonable route to do that with a homemade car? Do you have an insurance company that will touch such a thing? If you can't answer yes to both, you're going to want to find a way to integrate enough of something OEM, to claim it, and this doesn't look like anything at present. I couldn't answer yes on the state side of it, which is a significant chunk of why I now have a buggy carcass in my back yard and a "Jeep" in my driveway. The state saw a picture of the buggy, I said "I want to tag this" and they said "get bent". Didn't matter what modifications I was willing to make (it already had lights, signals, seatbelts, horn, it was a legit afternoon worth of work from as street-legal-to-the-letter as my Jeep is), no way, not happening, will not issue title.
BioHazard2222
Well-known member
Yes... I was thinking the same thing, and I guess you dont loos any cooling by tuipping it back if your running electric fans
I would love to lower the top roof line, but I dont see how I can do it and keet headroom I need, Im 6'5" and this is about as low as it seems I can go and keep a couple inches from hitting head on upper bars.
Well, supposedly I can register this as a "Assembled Vehicle", just need to have a list of major donor parts with receipts and such and then they will issue a VIN after inspection. But that is what they said on the phone, and I haven't tried to actually do it yet as I dont have anything for them to inspect. I should also go talk to my insurance agent and see what they think, good call...
ScottRS
Not @Rockstomper today
Supposedly I could too, but once pictures entered the mix, suddenly NHTSA standards and crash testing did too, along with arbitrary BS, and they leaned pretty heavily into the "may issue" side of the law. Colorado has no mechanism for the little people to force it, it's basically at the discretion of the bureaucracy. I looked into "washing" it through a couple other states, and could probably do it to get SD or MT plates and title, but if I then wanted to bring it "back", Colorado wouldn't accept a homemade-car title, it was clear they wanted nothing to do with it.
I'm not saying don't. Just saying make sure you don't get yourself armpit deep in something that you thought was going to work, only to find out that the one guy who said he'd help, retired last year, and his replacement is a dick.