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Opinion on recent event, police

Socsmm6

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Been wondering that myself. Is it racism or just an asshole entitled cop?
If they stick with a murder 1 charge i think the cop could walk on that if the defense can show that george would not have died if he had not taken the drugs he was on. I believe the autopsy said lethal doses of meth and fentanyl.
 

Truckedup

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I believe it was an asshole cop..He had several new cops with him and wanted to show how to deal with a problem using a not forbidden neck hold..
 

dntsdad

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Asshole cop. I haven't seen anything that makes him a racist

Thao I am not sure about. He seems like a follower and not much more. I have read much about him honestly, which in todays world mean there probably isn't anything.

The other two, Kueng and Lane, will get off without anything except maybe some communtiy service. They were both fresh on the job and had zero pull to do anything, even though they asked reasonable questions as to Floyd's condition. A jury will see they are not complicit

I cannot see how there is not reasonable doubt against a murder charge, or even manslaughter.

Floyd has heart issues and respitory issues from Covid. Took an unhealthy amount of Fent and meth, was buying cigarettes so he smoked, police used an approved and common "chokehold" and couldn't have known all of his conditions.

On those facts, I couldn't convict of murder or mansluaghter. Maybe being an asshole but the police dept. saw him as not an asshole and a "good cop" as he was a training officer.

Again, he broke no rules or policies of the PD and certainly didn't break a law.

Could he and should he have let up when the guy was subdued? Absolutely. He didn't though from the video although I am not sure that we can ever know how much pressure was actually being applied.
 

MuntCuffin

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Asshole cop combined with typical police training that preaches escalation of force. Plus the mentality that comes from an overly militarized police force that creates an "us versus them" mindset.
You could not have asked for a more diverse group of cops to kill a black man unless you through a woman in there, which makes this racism narrative so fucking frustrating to play out. And soooooo many people are so fucking stupid that they follow right along.
 

Slander

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Theres only a handful of people that know the facts of the entire situation, the rest is speculation based off a video. This trial will be interesting and get ready for LA riots X 1million. Brent Weinstein has some interesting and thought provoking ideas on this situation.
 

the conservative atheist

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It was a lie from day one. Absolutely no evidence the death was racially motivated. Hence why it was so disturbing to see companies like Amazon pedaling the BLM fraud. Now we are taking Aunt Jemima off the shelves, tearing down historic statues, banning movies and books, renaming building and airports, all for a racist LIE perpetuated by dirty, criminal blacks and the corrupt radical left. This evils actions must be stopped. We all know it has been ALLOWED to spread like the cancer it is. Probably already too late for our country. Hopefully there are still patriots out there that won't succumb to desecration of our nation quietly.
 

grumpy356

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https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/police-reform-and-the-making-of-a-racism-narrative/




This narrative is driving the nation to ruin.

Have you seen that mountain of evidence that Derek Chauvin is a racist? Me neither.

In that regard, I’m like the Wall Street Journal’s fearlessly fact-driven Jason Riley. Did some shred of racial animus motivate the since-fired Minneapolis police officer’s killing of George Floyd? For the moment, we have no proof of that — just a racialist narrative built on the happenstance (no reason to believe it’s more than that right now) that Chauvin is white and Floyd was black.

These days, alas, mere happenstance is enough to tear this nation asunder.

As an old investigator, I am intrigued by the fact that Minnesota attorney general Keith Ellison has refused to disclose police body-cam video of the moments leading up to Chauvin’s disturbing neck hold. Ditto the fact — highlighted in my analyses of the charges filed against the arresting officers (here and here) — that the state’s minute-by-minute recitation of probable cause omits whatever went on between Floyd and police inside the squad-car. Surely, if they helped the prosecution’s police-brutality allegations, those gaps in the complaint would have been filled.

Similarly, the fact that Minnesota police procedures permitted the use of neck holds for suspects resisting arrest has disappeared from the reporting. No chatter permitted, either, about the facts that Floyd (a) had a significant criminal record (though no new charges in recent years), (b) was suspected of passing a small amount of counterfeit money at the time of his arrest, and (c) was high on fentanyl and methamphetamine — a toxic combination whose ingestion was particularly dangerous for a person with his heart conditions.

Silence on these matters is partially explained by the admirably widespread desire not to besmirch a tragic victim, as well as the Left’s more-narrow determination to martyr Floyd for purposes of their police-racism narrative. The subject is also verboten, though, because the police were inconveniently recorded discussing their fear that Floyd might be experiencing excited-delirium syndrome. When police suspect that dangerous condition, their training calls for restraining the arrestee until emergency medical personnel arrive.


Trump to Sign Police Reform Executive Order on Tuesday


I’ve expressed my concern that the case against the former Minneapolis police is both overcharged and undercharged. Others have taken the overcharging argument further than I have — and persuasively so (see this thoughtful, comprehensive analysis by Gavrilo David). None of this means the prosecution of the now-fired cops is illegitimate. To the contrary, it underscores the wisdom of the original charges, filed before the notoriously demagogic Ellison entered the fray. In them, prosecutors took pains to include a manslaughter charge along with depraved indifference murder. That is, the police were not trying to kill this man. His death, to which his own poor judgment contributed, resulted from police negligence, possibly severe enough to rise to recklessness. But to this moment, there is no reason to believe his death was intentional, much less a modern-day “lynching” motivated by racial animus.

Yet the racism narrative is driving the nation to ruin.

The defamation that police are institutionally racist because America is indelibly racist has opened a potentially unbridgeable chasm. It is abetted by two national character flaws. The first is our gravitation to political leaders capable only of making matters worse by their spitefulness and Manichean posturing.

The second is our increasingly manifest conviction that we are not worth defending. We seem convinced that there is no positive case to be made for a society that idealizes liberty and the equal dignity of every person. For a society that does not pretend to be perfect, but that strives to be better. A society that confesses its sin and works toward redemption: spilling its blood to end slavery, fighting to end de jure racism, and rejecting racial discrimination as a socially acceptable attitude.

If we do not believe we are worth preserving — humbled by our flaws, yes, but duly proud of our virtues and our historic accomplishments — we will not be preserved.

This week’s farce on Capitol Hill was not a hopeful sign.

I admire Senator Tim Scott. His life story, recently told in moving detail by the WSJs Tunku Varadarajan, is an inspiration. Yet his police-reform legislation was far from inspirational. Sure, it should have been debated. Democrats are cynical — surprise!— to block its consideration, the better to keep riding the racism wave they expect to make an anti-Trump tsunami by November (and, as usual, getting no small amount of help from the president). But the best you can say for Scott’s proposal was that it would do no real harm.

Republicans had no intention of pushing back against the slander of institutional racism. They have no stomach for trumpeting the 30-year revolution in policing that, by dramatically driving down homicide and violent crime, has saved thousands of black lives. They would not rouse themselves to a defense of police forces that, reflective of their communities, boast high percentages of African-American officers and, in many major cities, of African-American leadership. No case was made that those black lives matter, too.

Instead, Republicans accept the premise that the nation’s police forces are infected with racism and in desperate need of reform. The GOP won’t dictate to the states, as a bill passed by House Democrats’ would. But Republicans would use federal funding as the prod for state data-gathering on police uses of force. Given that policing is a state responsibility, and that the use of force is a necessary component of it, the only rational purpose of this federal scrutiny is the conceit that police violence is triggered by racism, not by the imperative of countering aggressive criminal behavior.

You might think Congress would want to test that proposition before hamstringing police in a way that will inevitably endanger American communities. Nope.

The Republican cravenness makes it that much easier for Democrats to go all the way with the narrative. The Democratic legislation has no chance of being enacted in law — at least not until the Democrats retake the Senate and do away with the filibuster so President Biden can sign their grand designs into law. But “reforming” police by legislation is not the objective.

The point is for the Biden Justice Department to pick up where the Obama Justice Department left off.

As I pointed out at the time, the Obama Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division made a habit of slipstreaming behind race-tinged controversies, commencing investigations of state and local police departments. They would file lawsuits under a Clinton-era law that permits the Justice Department to sue municipalities based on any alleged “pattern or practice” that deprives people of their federal rights. States, cities, and towns cannot afford to go toe-to-toe with the Justice Department and its $30 billion annual budget. So they would settle by agreeing to consent decrees in which they’d be obliged to conform to Obama-prescribed policing — in with police as social workers whose community “legitimacy” hinges on confessing their “implicit bias”; out with “broken windows.”

The headline grabbers in the Democrats’ police-reform package were bans on chokeholds and no-knock warrants (the federal jurisdiction for such mandates remains mysterious), as well as the gutting of “qualified immunity,” which would make it easier to sue police. Less well noticed were the legislation’s data-gathering provisions. They are similar to Scott’s, except Democrats want more information about forcible police encounters, and they want that information broken down by race.

The object of the game is patent. Using the hocus-pocus of “disparate impact” theory, Democrats will argue that the disproportionately high percentage of black males in forcible police incidents is conclusive evidence of racism. Such factors as disproportionately high incidence of criminal behavior, and the race (often black) of the responding police officers will be ignored (the individual’s race makes no difference, you see, if the institution is racist — indeed, incorrigibly so). This distorted number crunching will make it even more prohibitive for states and their municipalities to challenge Justice Department lawsuits. They will concede and sign on the dotted line: “reform” by consent decree.

That is how you project racism without proving racism. It is not hard for the side that relishes the battle, especially when the other side’s specialty is preemptive surrender.

For those who don’t likr to click the link
 

Slander

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It was a lie from day one. Absolutely no evidence the death was racially motivated. Hence why it was so disturbing to see companies like Amazon pedaling the BLM fraud. Now we are taking Aunt Jemima off the shelves, tearing down historic statues, banning movies and books, renaming building and airports, all for a racist LIE perpetuated by dirty, criminal blacks and the corrupt radical left. This evils actions must be stopped. We all know it has been ALLOWED to spread like the cancer it is. Probably already too late for our country. Hopefully there are still patriots out there that won't succumb to desecration of our nation quietly.

Companies could give 2 fucks about any of these causes. They just want to pander to the mobs to keep their shit from being burned and keep people buying their stuff.

This is a bizarre religious style movement. Interesting you keep humans bottled up and away from each other and force feed them fear mongering and propaganda and some emerge as a bunch of religious style zealots. You have an evil you cant really define (systemic racism is the satan style construct), you must shout down and destroy the agents of this (police, people in charge that havent repented), public confessions, martyrs and arguably a jesus like figure, chants, slogans, public gatherings that supercede health risk and other types of gatherings, gospel meant to convert the non believers, and deeming symbolism as pagan that must be destroyed. The scary part is this is sponsored, or at least allowed to happen, by the corporate run state. I used to think religion was born out of people that were afraid to die and needed a way to explain the sun and weather events and other unexplainable events, my thoughts are changing on all this.
 

Ebs

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BLM is nothing but a tool, a vehicle, to advance a liberal/leftist/progressive political agenda. Period; paragraph.


They don't give a flyin' fuck about black lives.


This.

If you notice, everyfawkinbody was on board regarding the Floyd incident, that should not be happening.

At some point things became more divided, which also seems to be around the same time politicians and interest groups started talking.
 

det107

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Why didn't Mrs. Derek Chauvin bail out her hubby? Instead, she filed for divorce.

Gee.... I wonder why-
 

dntsdad

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Why didn't Mrs. Derek Chauvin bail out her hubby? Instead, she filed for divorce.

Gee.... I wonder why-

Lots of divorces every day for good reason and for stupid reasons to those on the outside.

Wife leaving means absolutely nothing...........or it means a lot.

If you have inside info, please share. If not, then what is your point?
 

grumpy356

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BLM is nothing but a tool, a vehicle, to advance a liberal/leftist/progressive political agenda. Period; paragraph.


They don't give a flyin' fuck about black lives.

I read a proffessor talk about how universities are very ANT-free speech.

he explained it’s because of how easily offended people are. But he explained its not the people that should be offended. Its the white kid getting offended on someones elses behalf.

say you are having a conversation about the Washington Redskins. The indian in the class could give a fuck less, but upper middle class WHITE KIDS...... they are offended for the indian. They run to the admin, or the board, or the press.

BLM is funded by those white kids

edit: i read this and not sure about the source so verify if you want

Pew Research released a report on who is actually protesting/rioting over the past month. Turns out, it's largely spoiled little white kids.

According to Pew Research the racial breakdown of the protests is:

Asian 8%
Black 17%
Hispanic 22%
White 46%
Other 7%
 
Last edited:

gt1guy

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Nothing short of ripping apart this entire country will make BLM/Antifa happy. Only a fool would dismiss how well organized and well funded they are. There is nothing grassroots about these people, nor is anything spontaneous.

If the facts in the George Floyd case don't jive with the narrative, then the narrative is a lie. If the narrative is a lie, then everything they're doing is an unprovoked attack. George Floyd was the excuse.

Dragging a white person out of their car and beating them senseless is becoming PC. Think about that for a minute.


It doesn't matter what the verdicts are in the George Floyd trial, shit is going to get real ugly.
 

Slander

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I read a proffessor talk about how universities are very ANT-free speech.

he explained it’s because of how easily offended people are. But he explained its not the people that should be offended. Its the white kid getting offended on someones elses behalf.

say you are having a conversation about the Washington Redskins. The indian in the class could give a fuck less, but upper middle class WHITE KIDS...... they are offended for the indian. They run to the admin, or the board, or the press.

BLM is funded by those white kids

edit: i read this and not sure about the source so verify if you want

Pew Research released a report on who is actually protesting/rioting over the past month. Turns out, it's largely spoiled little white kids.

According to Pew Research the racial breakdown of the protests is:

Asian 8%
Black 17%
Hispanic 22%
White 46%
Other 7%

Pretty much. My really rich, white liberal lawyer cousin, who had everything handed to her and her lawyer husband are all out raged and pointing out racism everywhere, while hiding out in their vacation cabin in Michigan. Meanwhile I live in a very mixed, lower middle class neighborhood, and nobody could give a fuck less about what's going on. Oh wait there is one "hate has no home here" yard sign, I'll give you two guess what the race of the people that live there are.
 

aczlan

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An interesting related article: https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911
https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911 said:
The world has united in protest after a graphic video emerged showing a Black man dying under the restraint of a White police officer. The victim, George Floyd, was in clear distress. He was pinned to the ground by three officers, with one officer — Derek Chauvin — placing a knee on his neck. For over five minutes, he tells the officers that he is unable to breathe. George Floyd died as horrified bystanders told the officers they were killing him.
The video is unquestionably horrific.
But in our rush to condemn an aggressive use of force and pursue justice for George Floyd, we have ignored crucial information which is necessary in judging the conduct of the officers. While nothing can absolve George Floyd’s death, these facts do cast doubt on the appropriateness of a murder charge for Chauvin, and paint a more nuanced picture of the events leading up to the tragic encounter.
There are six crucial pieces of information — six facts — that have been largely omitted from discussion on the Chauvin’s conduct. Taken together, they likely exonerate the officer of a murder charge. Rather than indicating illegal and excessive force, they instead show an officer who rigidly followed the procedures deemed appropriate by the Minneapolis Police Department (MPD). The evidence points to the MPD and the local political establishment, rather than the individual officer, as ultimately responsible for George Floyd’s death.
These six facts are as follows:
  1. George Floyd was experiencing cardiopulmonary and psychological distress minutes before he was placed on the ground, let alone had a knee to his neck.
  2. The Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) allows the use of neck restraint on suspects who actively resist arrest, and George Floyd actively resisted arrest on two occasions, including immediately prior to neck restraint being used.
  3. The officers were recorded on their body cams assessing George Floyd as suffering from “excited delirium syndrome” (ExDS), a condition which the MPD considers an extreme threatto both the officers and the suspect. A white paper used by the MPD acknowledges that ExDS suspects may die irrespective of force involved. The officers’ response to this situation was in line with MPD guidelines for ExDS.
  4. Restraining the suspect on his or her abdomen (prone restraint) is a common tactic in ExDS situations, and the white paper used by the MPD instructs the officers to control the suspect until paramedics arrive.
  5. Floyd’s autopsy revealed a potentially lethal concoction of drugs — not just a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl, but also methamphetamine. Together with his history of drug abuse and two serious heart conditions, Floyd’s condition was exceptionally and unusually fragile.
  6. Chauvin’s neck restraint is unlikely to have exerted a dangerous amount of force to Floyd’s neck. Floyd is shown on video able to lift his head and neck, and a robust study on double-knee restraints showed a median force exertion of approximately approximately 105lbs.
Let’s be clear: the actions of Chauvin and the other officers were absolutely wrong. But they were also in line with MPD rules and procedures for the condition which they determined was George Floyd was suffering from. An act that would normally be considered a clear and heinous abuse of force, such as a knee-to-neck restraint on a suspect suffering from pulmonary distress, can be legitimatized if there are overriding concerns not known to bystanders but known to the officers. In the case of George Floyd, the overriding concern was that he was suffering from ExDS, given a number of relevant facts known to the officers. This was not known to the bystanders, who only saw a man with pulmonary distress pinned down with a knee on his neck. While the officers may still be found guilty of manslaughter, the probability of a guilty verdict for the murder charge is low, and the public should be aware of this well in advance of the verdict.
While we should pursue justice for George Floyd, we should be absolutely sure that we are pursuing justice against his real killers. A careful examination of the evidence points to the procedures and rules of the MPD, rather than the police officers following these procedures and rules, as the real killers of George Floyd. If anyone murdered George Floyd, it was the MPD and the local political establishment. This is why Attorney General Keith Ellison has expressed how difficult a conviction will be.
“Trying this case will not be an easy thing. Winning a conviction will be hard,” Ellison said.​
There is still much to the case that remains unknown. As new information emerges, we should adjust our view accordingly. But a close inspection of all current information does not point to a murder charge being appropriate.
1. George Floyd’s symptoms started well before being restrained to the ground

From the original government complaint, we know that he was falling to the ground and claiming he couldn’t breathe while still standing up.
Mr. Floyd stiffened up, fell to the ground, and told the officers he was claustrophobic […] Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily get in the car and struggled with the officers by intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still […] While standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he could not breathe.​
From the 911 transcript, we know that George Floyd was acting “drunk” and “not in control of himself” before the police were called. The 911 caller is concerned that such an “awfully drunk” man would attempt to operate a vehicle. This is an important departure from the earlier media reports, which indicated the officers were only called over a counterfeit bill.
“Um someone comes our store and give us fake bills and we realize it before he left the store, and we ran back outside, they was sitting on their car […], and he’s sitting on his car cause he is awfully drunk and he’s not in control of himself” […] He is not acting right […] and [he’s] not acting right so and [he] started to go, drive the car.”​
This information on its own is of no significance. In fact, aggressively restraining someone who is experiencing distress only makes that restraint all the more heinous. But as will be seen later, when this information is seen in light of George Floyd’s behavior, it led the officers to suspect he was suffering from ExDS — a far more dangerous scenario than simple distress.
2. The Minneapolis Police Department policy authorizes neck restraint for actively resisting suspects

The Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) recognizes two types of resistance to arrest. There is active resistance, defined as follows:
a response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. A subject engages in active resistance when engaging in physical actions (or verbal behavior reflecting an intention) to make it more difficult for officers to achieve actual physical control.​
And passive resistance, defined as follows:
a response to police efforts to bring a person into custody or control for detainment or arrest. This is behavior initiated by a subject, when the subject does not comply with verbal or physical control efforts, yet the subject does not attempt to defeat an officer’s control efforts.​
Passive resistance is when a suspect is non-compliant in an arrest, but will not act to stop an officer from enacting an arrest. Imagine a child in a supermarket who has a meltdown and drops to the floor — this is passive resistance, as guardian can easily pick up the child. Now imagine a child who not only drops to the floor but pulls against their guardian. This is active resistance.
The MPD allows the use of force in action resistance. Relevantly, the MPD allows neck restraint. It is defined as:
Non-deadly force option. Defined as compressing one or both sides of a person’s neck with an arm or leg, without applying direct pressure to the trachea or airway (front of the neck). Only sworn employees who have received training from the MPD Training Unit are authorized to use neck restraints.​
There are two types of neck restraint. What we are interested is in conscious neck restraint, defined as:
The subject is placed in a neck restraint with intent to control, and not to render the subject unconscious, by only applying light to moderate pressure.
The Conscious Neck Restraint may be used against a subject who is actively resisting.​
We know from the original government complaint that Floyd was actively resisting, because they admit as much:
Mr. Floyd actively resisted being handcuffed.​
We also know from the original complaint that he resisted again:
The officers made several attempts to get Mr. Floyd in the backseat of squad 320 from the driver’s side. Mr. Floyd did not voluntarily get in the car and struggled with the officers by intentionally falling down, saying he was not going in the car, and refusing to stand still.
While standing outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he could not breathe. The defendant went to the passenger side and tried to get Mr. Floyd into the car from that side and Lane and Kueng assisted.
The defendant pulled Mr. Floyd out of the passenger side of the squad car at 8:19:38 p.m. and Mr. Floyd went to the ground face down and still handcuffed​
The three officers were unable to keep him in the police car. The little video evidence we have indicates that there was a struggle. “The defendant pulled Mr. Floyd out of the passenger side of the squad car” likely because they were unable to close the squad car door due to his resistance. A longer video was posted by the popular activist Shaun King which indicates a struggle. Shaun King believes this video shows the officers beating Floyd, however the government (who has access to the body cams) did not write this in their complaint (which they would, as it would help their case).
There appears to be two cases of active resistance, including immediately prior to prone restraint. As such, neck restraint was permissible in order to control George Floyd. Remember that the MPD guideline is to use light to moderate force. An officer placing a knee on a suspect’s neck does not mean he is exerting full force, and there is evidence that light to moderate pressure was used on Floyd. Given that Floyd was saying he couldn’t breathe while resisting being placed in the police car, the officers could not reasonably believe that light to moderate pressure would cause his proclaimed symptoms.
For reasons not yet known, Minneapolis is refusing to release the officers’ body cams of this moment. This information is importantin order to determine how Floyd was acting the exact moment the officers pulled him from the police car. It is unconscionable that this information has not been released to the public. We must assume, given all relevant information already known, that their reason for pulling him out of the car was his continued resistance as noted in the government complaint.
(Note: the original page for the MPD detailing use of force has been wiped. Here is an archive hosted by — for some reason — the San Francisco police department. And here is an archive of the archive, just in case.)
3. The officers reasonably determined that George Floyd was suffering from Excited Delirium

In 2018, the MPD published a report on the use of ketamine in excited delirium. Attached to this report is an authoritative document on excited delirium entitled “White Paper Report on Excited Delirium”. A white paper is an authoritative report.The MPD attached this white paper because it was considered by the MPD the most authoritative document on excited delirium syndrome (ExDS).
The report specifies the nature of ExDS, the symptoms of ExDS, as well as what police officers should consider when dealing with those they suspect of suffering from ExDS. The report is long. First, let’s backtrack and establish that the officers did in fact suspect excited delirium. WaPo hosts the original government complaint:
Officer Lane said, “I am worried about excited delirium or whatever.” The defendant said, “That’s why we have him on his stomach.”​
It must be understood that the public does not yet have enough information to conclude whether the police were accurate in their assessment of ExDS. We have some information indicating that the determination is correct, but absent the full body cam recording, we are unable to make a complete judgment on this point. This is discouraging, because the entire case rests on this point. We know that two officers believed he was experiencing ExDS, and that the other two officers did not comment to the contrary. We also know that George Floyd had some symptoms of ExDS, but we do not know if he had all symptoms of ExDS, or if he had any symptoms indicating the contrary. Below are the symptoms, affixed with whether we know he experienced the symptom or not:
  • Sweating [Y]
  • Police Noncompliance [Y]
  • Lack of Tiring [Y]
  • Unusual Strength [?]
  • Pain Tolerance [?]
  • Tachypnea [?]
  • Tactile Hyperthermia [?]
  • Bizarre behavior generating calls to police [Y]
  • Suspected or known psychostimulant drug or alcohol intoxication [Y]
  • Erratic or violent behavior [?]
  • Ongoing struggle despite futility [Y]
  • Yelling/shouting/guttural sounds [?]
  • Agitation [Y]
  • Inappropriately Clothed [N]
  • Mirror/Glass Attraction [?]
  • Suspected or known psychiatric illness [N]
  • Failure to recognize or respond to police presence at the scene [likely N]
Some of these symptoms can only be determined from body cameras. Unfortunately, other symptoms can only be determined by the officers’ account. It is not possible to know whether he was experiencing tactile hyperthermia except by asking the officers who had touched his skin. We will have to work with these limitations in our analysis of the event. However, that both the brand new officer (Lane) and the veteran officer (Chauvin) suspected ExDS is not poor evidence. And that no officer objected to this determination must also be considered.
There are also symptoms that we know in hindsight, but which the officers did not know. For instance, George Floyd had a history of stimulant abuse, as detailed in his arrest log, with four previous arrests involving drugs.


The White Paper goes on to describe the dangers of excited delirium, both to the officer and the suspect. This information is important, and explains why the officers responded as they did:
Given the irrational and potentially violent, dangerous, and lethal behavior of an ExDS subject, any LEO interaction with a person in this situation risks significant injury or death to either the LEO or the ExDS subject who has a potentially lethal medical syndrome. This already challenging situation has the potential for intense public scrutiny coupled with the expectation of a perfect outcome. Anything less creates a situation of potential public outrage. Unfortunately, this dangerous medical situation makes perfect outcomes difficult in many circumstances.”​
  • “LEOs must also be aware that remorse, normal fear and understanding of surroundings, and rational thoughts for safety are absent in such subjects.”
  • “ExDS subjects are known to be irrational, often violent and relatively impervious to pain. Unfortunately, almost everything taught to LEOs about control of subjects relies on a suspect to either be rational, appropriate, or to comply with painful stimuli. Tools and tactics available to LEOs (such as pepper spray, impact batons, joint lock maneuvers, punches and kicks, and ECD’s, especially when used for pain compliance) that are traditionally effective in controlling resisting subjects, are likely to be less effective on ExDS subjects.”
  • “The goals of LEOs in these situations should be to 1) recognize possible ExDS, contain the subject, and call for EMS; 2) take the subject into custody quickly, safely, and efficiently if necessary; and 3) then immediately turn the care of the subject over to EMS personnel when they arrive for treatment and transport to definitive medical care.”
  • “In those cases where a death occurs while in custody, there is the additional difficulty of separating any potential contribution of control measures from the underlying pathology. For example, was death due to the police control tool, or to positional asphyxia, or from ExDS, or from interplay of all these factors? Even in the situation where all caregivers agree that a patient is in an active delirious state, there is no proof of the most safe and effective control measure or therapy for what is most likely an extremely agitated patient.”
  • “There are well-documented cases of ExDS deaths with minimal restraint such as handcuffs without ECD use. This underscores that this is a potentially fatal syndrome in and of itself, sometimes reversible when expert medical treatment is immediately available”.
Each of these bullet points is of the utmost importance in understanding Chauvin’s state of mind. These points must be re-read and thoroughly understood before pronouncing judgment on an officer who was simply following these statements during the arrest. If you are skimming this article I advise you to spend time on these bullet points. Remember: the officer’s job is to follow protocol, not to re-write protocol during an arrest. It is the politician’s job to ensure that the protocols are correct, no the police officer’s.
There has been some controversy in the media regarding the legitimacy of ExDS as a true medical condition. It should be mentioned that ExDS is recognized by the American College of Emergency Physicians as a true medical emergency, and ACEP played a role in drafting the White Paper for ExDS. But regardless of its legitimacy, ExDS is recognized by the Minneapolis Police Department. It bears repeating that Officer Chauvin is not tasked with determining the legitimacy of the syndromes which his department and local government already recognizes. Any question of the legitimacy of ExDS must be lodged against the government of Minneapolis — Mayor Frey — and the MPD, not Officer Chauvin.
4. Neck restraint is common in ExDS, and ExDS suspects have died in all types of restraint

As noted earlier, the government complaint against Chauvin states that the officers suspected excited delirium:
Lane asked, “should we roll him on his side?” and the defendant said, “No, staying put where we got him.” Officer Lane said, “I am worried about excited delirium or whatever.” The defendant said, “That’s why we have him on his stomach.”​
This excerpt is of twofold importance. First, it demonstrates that two officers suspected excited delirium. Second, it demonstrates that Chauvin was restraining Floyd in this position because he suspected excited delirium (“that’s why we have him on his stomach”). Restraining an individual on his stomach is common in ExDS encounters. This is called “prone restraint”. In fact, it is often the recommended form of restraint until the officers can safely put the suspect in a different position:
As mentioned before, people experiencing EXD are highly agitated, violent, and show signs of unexpected strength so it is not surprising that most require physical restraint. The prone maximal restraint position (PMRP, also known as “hobble” or “hogtie”), where the person’s ankles and wrists are bound together behind their back, has been used extensively by field personnel. In far fewer cases, persons have been tied to a hospital gurney or manually held prone with knee pressure on the back or neck.​
Two years ago, the 8th circuit ruled on a case involving both prone restraint and ExDS, writing that officers are entitled to qualified immunity in cases involving prone restraint, specifically denying 4th amendment privilege against excessive force:
Officers determined that keeping Layton in a prone position was best given his continued resistance, and Baker pressed Layton’s shoulders to the ground while Groby held Layton’s thighs […] this court has not deemed prone restraint unconstitutional in and of itself the few times we have addressed the issue […] Under these cases, there is no clearly established right against the use of prone restraints for a suspect that has been resisting.​
Now, qualified immunity is just that: qualified. The court ruled that prone restraint is not necessarily excessive in suspects who have been resisting arrest, even if that suspect is experiencing ExDS. This does not mean prone restraint is always justified, but that it isn’t always unjustified. We still must examine the use of prone restraint on a case-by-case basis.
Informational Asymmetry: what the police and EMTs know, and what the public knows

It’s important to understand that the public — including journalists — are not well-versed in ExDS, and consequently do not have a good intuition as to what constitutes excessive force. As noted in the white paper, “there is no proof of the most safe and effective control measure,” “any LEO interaction with a person in this situation risks significant injury or death”, “this already challenging situation has the potential for intense public scrutiny coupled with the expectation of a perfect outcome […] Unfortunately, this dangerous medical situation makes perfect outcomes difficult […].” It would helpful here to examine ExDS in depth, and compare it to the George Floyd case.
4.1 ExDS Encounters Explored

Willard Truckenmiller

Willard Truckenmiler was a sheriff’s deputy. While celebrating his birthday, he began to display “agitated and unusual behavior”. When officers arrived on the scene — many of them his colleagues— he did not recognize them and assumed a fighting stance. The responding officers suspected ExDS. The officers “handcuffed him and forced him to into a seated position on the ground”, and EMS personnel gave him ketamine. Moments later he experienced trouble breathing and went into cardiac arrest. He died two days later.
In the case of Truckenmiller, it is unreasonable to assume the police acted on prejudice — Truckenmiller was a colleague and police officer. It is unreasonable to assume that his cardiac arrest was due to use of force, because he was not held in prone restraint and was quickly given ketamine by the EMS. Despite all of this, Truckenmiller experienced trouble breathing, had a heart attack, and died. This demonstrates that ExDS is “potentially fatal syndrome in and of itself”, as the white paper used by the MPD notes. It is also proof that ExDS deaths are not necessarily caused by excessive force or prejudice.
Roy Scott

Roy Scott was 65 years old. Police were called to his residence. After coming outside with a pipe in his hand and pulling a knife out of his pocket, police decided to pat him down. The police handcuffed him and began patting him down when he began experiencing extreme emotional distress. The police tried to deescalate verbally, which did not work. They then tried keeping the suspect on his back, which did not work. They momentarily placed him in the prone position, and even engaged in neck restraint for less than a minute. The police are calm the entire time — one officer tells the other officer to “just keep holding him, he’s going to keep rolling around, he’s going to hurt himself”. The police eventually place him on his side in the recovery position, which is a candidate for the safest restraint position in ExDS encounters. They hold his head with their palms so that he doesn’t bang it on the ground.
The Roy Scott video — linked above — may just be the best case recorded of how police should deal with ExDS. Everything they did was correct. They went above and beyond in deescalating the situation. The officers had compassion for Roy Scott.
But Roy Scott still died. How?
As the Journal of Emergency Medical Services notes,
“The usual response by subjects to restraints is to either accept that fighting is futile or continue to be verbally abusive. The patient with excited delirium, however, continues to fight the restraints until cardiac arrest occurs.”​
This is what happened to Roy Scott. It did not matter how the officers restrained him, because he would fight against the restraints past the point of exhaustion and into cardiac arrest.
More Cases of Note
  • It takes four officers to restrain this man experiencing ExDS in prone restraint until the EMT arrives (likely with ketamine).
  • In this case from 2011, the officers used a taser and knee-to-back prone-restraint.
  • In this more recent video, it takes six officers, a taser, and multiple batons to restrain the suspect. Even with six officers restraining him, he is still able to get halfway up. At 6:14 in the video, a Black police officer kicks the suspect near the head and then applies force near the suspect’s neck — this is appropriate use of force, even though it appears unnecessary, because the suspect was an extreme threat. This particular ExDS suspect was able to cause facial injuries to the officers despite being overpowered 6-to-1. As the white paper notes, ExDS suspects often “show signs of unexpected strength”.
A Parallel Case: Donald Lewis



Out of all the cases of ExDS and prone restraint available, the Donald Lewis case most clearly mirrors the George Floyd case. Donald Lewis was a white man suffering from excited delirium.
The police first decide to use verbal deescalation. This doesn’t work, as he runs into traffic. He says he is going to die while being restrained by the police. From 1:50 to 2:40, we see an officer use knee-to-neck restraint. Lewis’ condition does not deteriorate from prone restraint, and he continues actively resisting arrest. They then use zip ties and hobble prone restraint. At 3:50 he tries to bite the officers (this is especially dangerous for officers who would prefer not to risk exposure to HIV or hepatitis). At 4:04 he appears to call for his mom. At 5:25 a Black police officer uses knee-to-neck restraint against the white suspect. The Black police officer resumes this position seconds later. The suspect dies in this position.
The parallel to our current case does not end here. An official autopsy declared cause of death “sudden respiratory arrest following physical struggling restraint due to cocaine-induced excited delirium.” The legal team hired Dr. Michael Baden, who testified that Lewis died from “asphyxia caused by neck compression.” Baden is the same medical examiner who was hired by the George Floyd family, and made a similar finding. Baden is also the same medical examiner who was hired for Eric Garner, and declared death by “compression of the neck”. Baden is also the same medical examiner who was hired by the Brown family to examine Michael Brown, and Baden found that Brown died while surrendering, an assertion totally disproven by a DoJ investigation spearheaded by AG Eric Holder under Obama. Suffice it to say, Michael Baden has a very specific interest, and a very tenuous track record. The Court will be aware of this when weighing the autopsies.
After recruiting Baden, a suit against the police was filed. As per CSMonitor,
The 11th Circuit rejected the contention that hogtying was unreasonable once Lewis was already handcuffed and his legs shackled. “Even though most of the officers in this case testified that Lewis was not a danger to them and was merely resisting arrest, he was, as the district court described, ‘an agitated and uncooperative man with only a tenuous grasp on reality,’ ” the appeals-court panel said. […] The panel concluded: “Because of his refusal to sit upright and his inability to remain calm, Lewis remained a safety risk to himself and to others.”​
A case of note in a scientific journal

An article, “Delayed In-Custody Death involving Excited Delirium”, proves that ExDS deaths can occur without any restraint or even drug stimulant.
This case study presents a 37-year-old male who was experiencing excited delirium (ExD) and died in a county jail 4 days after being taken into custody. The male died in a jail observation cell without having been restrained and was not under the influence of a drug stimulant. The subject had a documented psychiatric history of bipolar disorder and schizophrenia and was known to consume marijuana, cocaine, and methamphetamines. This case illustrates the pernicious effects of ExD and how its lethality can be delayed when many cases involve drug use and use of force where subjects die shortly thereafter. Implications of ExD for correctional agencies and efforts of responding to it in correctional and law enforcement contexts are discussed.​
4.2 What do EMS personnel think about ExDS?

It may be of interest to see what EMS personnel on the ground think about ExDS. Using archives of comments on the popular forum Reddit, we can get a halfway decent gauge of how professionals dealing with ExDS feel about the condition. One user, more than a year before the George Floyd incident, asked the following: “ What is your excited delirium story? What tactics would you recommend for handling such individuals?”:
The two top responses to this question are illuminating:
1*sauzfL63bJUGi0T73-WVeQ.jpg

1*sauzfL63bJUGi0T73-WVeQ.jpg




EMS personnel answer, “What is your excited delirium story? What tactics would you recommend for handling such individuals?5. George Floyd had a potentially lethal amount of fentanyl in his system, a history of drug abuse, and two serious heart conditions — resulting in an unusually fragile condition

George Floyd’s autopsy sheds light on his state of cardiovascular health. He was found to have arteriosclerotic heart disease and hypertensive heart disease. Additionally, he was found to have the following drugs in his system:
  • Fentanyl 11 ng/mL 2.
  • Norfentanyl 5.6 ng/mL 3. 4-ANPP 0.65 ng/mL 4.
  • Methamphetamine 19 ng/mL
This level of fentanyl is dangerous. One review of fentanyl overdoses found a median amount of ng/mL in an overdose to be approximately 10 ng/mL:
Despite the ubiquitous presence of multiple drugs in these decedents, the effects of fentanyl were evidently so strong that there were no statistical differences in the fentanyl level (mean and standard deviation) with or without the presence of these co-intoxicants. The range of fentanyl levels was wide, from 0.75 to 113.00 ng/mL, with an average of 9.96 ng/mL.​
Compare this information to an article published in Frontiers of Physiologydetailing medical findings in ExDS deaths:
Many patients with excited delirium also have significant cardiovascular and psychiatric diseases. Autopsies often reveal severe atherosclerosis, cardiomyopathy and diabetes. Cardiomyopathy results from chronic cocaine and methamphetamine abuse. Atherosclerosis and diabetes can also be the result of smoking, obesity and a lack of overall health care. The combination of the metabolic arrest with severe cardiovascular disease makes a successful resuscitation highly unlikely.​
To be clear: this information cannot be considered relevant in judging the officer’s actions. It is only relevant in determining Floyd’s cause of death, as well as the probability (in hindsight) of George Floyd experiencing ExDS. The actions of the police are never justified in hindsight, but must always be justified given what the officers knew firsthand. With that said, if we are determining the likelihood of Floyd dying from excessive force rather than an especially fragile cardiovascular system, it is minor relevance.
6. There is reason to believe Chauvin’s knee-to-neck restraint did not exert a dangerous amount of force

From the footage we have of Floyd’s arrest, we see at 2:11 Floyd is able to lift his head and neck despite the placement of Chauvin’s knee. This occurs exactly at 2:11 through 2:12, and only for a moment. Yet this act would be impossible were Chauvin exerting a dangerous amount of pressure with his knee.
Remember what we know about ExDS: the suspect struggles with restraint regardless of restraint used. That Chauvin has his knee in a position to exert force if the suspect tries to flee does not mean that he is exerting force the entire time. The knee is there to prevent Floyd from getting up, not from pushing Floyd into the concrete. This is a preventative force position rather than an aggressive force position.
It is, of course, impossible to know just how much pressure Chauvin is exerting in this encounter. He could be exerting only as much force as is required to keep him down. And he could be exerting maximal force. How can we know?
Well, there is one study on the weight of a single-knee and double-knee restraint on the body. On average, single-knee restraint distributes around 70 lbs of force. But Chauvin, for most of the arrest, was engaged in a double-knee restraint position. According to the study, the double-knee position (which Chauvin uses) produces a median force of 48 kg, or 106 lbs. This force would be distributed between the side of his neck and back, unless Chauvin were consciously applying more force in one of these locations. If the force applied were split evenly, that is only 53 lbs of exertion spread across the side of Floyd’s neck. This amount of force, while uncomfortable, is not enough to stop a suspect from breathing and not enough to cut off blood flow to the brain.
1*CrQ9LqNSSllGJSzgr09qiA.png

1*CrQ9LqNSSllGJSzgr09qiA.png



But let’s take a look at that study again. The study concludes that the double-knee weight was exactly 23.3 kg plus 24% of a specific LEO’s body weight. Some preliminary information indicates Chauvin is 156 lbs, which is a reasonable estimate, as the footage shows him to be thin and of average height. This means Chauvin was exerting 90 lbs in the double-knee position, for 45 lbs exerted spread across the back and the neck (implying balanced force). 45 lbs is definitively insufficient to restrict breathing or blood-flow in the neck. The other officers are of a similar build.
A Minneapolis-based Study

This study conducted at the Minneapolis-based University of Minnesota. The officers were recruited from the Minneapolis police department. The study was conducted last year.
There are 800 LEOs in Minneapolis. The study has 41 participants, meaning 5% of the officers in Minneapolis participated in the study. If you are an officer in the MPD and you spoke to 9 other officers about the use of prone restraint, the probability is that one of you would have been a participant. It’s probable that Chauvin knew about this study. With four officers involved in Floyd’s arrest, there’s roughly a 21% chance that one of them was a participant in the very study.
The conclusions of the study are enough to exonerate the officers from a murder charge:
  • “Our data do not support the hypothesis of restraint asphyxia.”
  • “When a cause of death cannot otherwise be determined, positional asphyxia is often suggested […] Proponents of this theory often hypothesize that subjects restrained prone, with applied downward weight force, hobbled, or in maximal restraint (restrained on their stomach with hands and wrists secured to the handcuffs) were unable to breathe because the position caused chest wall and abdominal restriction that prevented adequate expansion of the lungs. Subsequent rigorous scientific studies, however, using sophisticated measurements have debunked the positional or restraint asphyxia hypothesis because the prone position does not produce respiratory compromise.”
  • “To date, none of the published human clinical studies, or epidemiological studies, support the hypothesis that the pronerestraint position causes or contributes to ventilatory compromise”
  • “DiMaio and DiMaio observed that acceptance of the concept of positional asphyxia as the cause of death in restraint associated deaths often involves the suspension of common sense and logical thinking. Further, other researchers have commented that positional asphyxia is an interesting theory unsupported by the experimental data. Nor are significant changes in cardiovascular measures found.”
The prosecution is going to have tremendous difficulty proving murder, when Chauvin likely knew of the scientific research indicating that prone restraint is not excessively dangerous to the suspect’s cardiovascular health.



Aaron Z
 

evernoob

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Companies could give 2 fucks about any of these causes. They just want to pander to the mobs to keep their shit from being burned and keep people buying their stuff.

This is a bizarre religious style movement. Interesting you keep humans bottled up and away from each other and force feed them fear mongering and propaganda and some emerge as a bunch of religious style zealots. You have an evil you cant really define (systemic racism is the satan style construct), you must shout down and destroy the agents of this (police, people in charge that havent repented), public confessions, martyrs and arguably a jesus like figure, chants, slogans, public gatherings that supercede health risk and other types of gatherings, gospel meant to convert the non believers, and deeming symbolism as pagan that must be destroyed. The scary part is this is sponsored, or at least allowed to happen, by the corporate run state. I used to think religion was born out of people that were afraid to die and needed a way to explain the sun and weather events and other unexplainable events, my thoughts are changing on all this.

Quality post, and if your thoughts on religion really are changing, I would strongly suggest where I left off my Religious investigations:

Religion Explained - Pascal Boyar

His Functional Origins of Religious Concepts: publication is still available in pdf form (reputable source).

Ok that's all very high-brow stuff, but to your post:

BLM is a religous movement and there is no doubt. The information I posted shows that BLM and the riots are specifically religious. You've gone past the old "cowering in a cave" dismissal of religion which constitutes Atheism 101. It doesn't work, as you've seen. It's part of it. I wouldn't dismiss MOST of my religious friends on that basis, mostly because I don't hang around dumbasses as a rule. There's a lot more going on.

Nothing below this line has to be read, it's me forming thoughts on the subject.

It's often observed that Leftism is a form of Religion. I think this is most commonly observed with Environmentalism and Race. I think these ideas have a lot of merit, and I've used Boyar's model to explain it. This model has been working for me for over 10 years.

We are evolved to be Religious. Religious people will argue that a god made us this way, atheists will say the concept of a god is a result of that evolution. That's a non-productive debate.

Functionally, people act religious. Whether you and I want to be Religious or not has nothing to do with it. Being Religious is not a decision.

You and I and everyone else will begin to assemble the world into a Religious framework whether we believe in gods or not. The form of atheism that I practice is essentially interrupting this assembly with constant critical reasoning (so I hope). This is basically what Skeptical or Reasoning individuals like to believe. That we're constantly weighing each and every issue under a critical light and making rational decisions. It requires deliberate thought, and deliberate interruption.

All of that makes sense in a world where there is a FINITE body of knowledge which we can REASONABLY digest. But that's not our world. Our world is a constant flood of INFINITE knowledge with AMBIGUOUS meaning.

Every day, I encounter a lot of information which VIOLATES my expectations. Things don't neatly fit into their category. For instance, I expect that the Cops are good, the Robbers are bad. When Cops apprehend Robbers, my expectation about the social contract is being upheld, and the categories I have assigned to Cops and Robbers are valid.

If it turns out that the Cops are bad, and the Robbers noble, then this is a VIOLATION of my expectation. In fact, the CATEGORY that Cops and Robbers belong to is violated, and violated in an expected way.

This expectation: THE VIOLATION OF ONTOLOGICAL CATEGORY, is the heart of Boyar's description of Religion.

As Religious beings, we expect regular VIOLATION of our assembled categories. Now apply this to the Cops/Robbers relationship. If we assume the Cops are good and the Robbers bad, some part of us, the Religious part, EXPECTS a violation of that model. *Somehow! Not necessarily all Cops are bad/Robbers good.

Boyar shows that if the violation fits into a certain pattern, that EXPECTATION itself becomes a Religious belief.

Example: If we expect that a woman must have congress with a man to procreate, then a woman who is a virgin cannot give birth. However, human history is filled with legends of virgin births, we can observe other 'mothers' in nature seemingly give spontaneous birth, so the idea of a virgin birth is in fact very powerful. It's strongly compelling. In fact you can tell an Amazonian tribesman the story of the Virgin Birth, and that man will be VERY interested to learn about that woman, and her child. Even though he knows it's impossible.

It is also impossible for trees to exist only on certain days of the week. So, if we tell the tribesman about a magical tree that only exists on Saturday, he should be very interested in this tree. But he's not. He'll just look at you and laugh. This does not fit in with an EXPECTED violation of his categories.

So too with the Cops and Robbers scenario. If the Cops only existed on Saturday, then disappeared the rest of the week, no one would believe that.

But, if the category of Cops and Robbers are reversed, are VIOLATED, then JUST ABOUT EVERYONE BELIEVES THIS VIOLATION. In fact this is about a reversal of our expected Agency of the cops and robbers: what we expect them to be thinking, when the violation transpires.

To not get too detailed, this is because of more calculus about agency and intent which Cops and Robbers have, but clearly this concept of violation of expectation is very strong, and quite clearly Religious.

I think it's interesting that Yuri Bezmenov has gained a lot of popularity on the Right, because as an ex-KGB agent, he is describing how you can take a society in one course, demoralize and confuse it, then set it in a new tract. This process is accomplished by VIOLATING certain expectations. It doesn't take much to do, because we as humans EXPECT those VIOLATIONS.

Thus it is with Jogger George Floyd. We expect a violation of the Cops and Robbers categories, where the Robber becomes a violated, Christ-like martyr, and the Institutions and Cops that are ostensibly fair, are in fact in total violation of their contract.

This idea is so sticky, it has so much staying power, because it is a Religious idea.

Furthermore, if Drunk Me can pick out, and not shown here, in specific detail what artifacts the Left CHOSE to violate, and how they set the ground for the EXPECTATION OF VIOLATION, then that means someone smarter than me HAS ACTUALLY DONE THE WORK ON THIS.

And that is what we are seeing. A Religionist Revivalist movement. Among street-level Blacks, infamously susceptible to Religion, and among Adolescent and Deliberate Radical Whites, who are an Open Sewer of ideas with expected violations.

I am NOT a conspiracy theoriest, but I also don't believe in coincidences. This all too convenient to me.
 

Stuck

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The most severe charge that chauvin should be charged under is negligent homicide. Nothing shows that he was racist or that he did this because Floyd was Black. The AG charging him is a dumbass.
 

Provience

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The most severe charge that chauvin should be charged under is negligent homicide. Nothing shows that he was racist or that he did this because Floyd was Black. The AG charging him is a dumbass.

agree with that. choke hold approved or not, sitting on his neck with a blood choke for 4-5 minutes (after he quit talking, meaning he was out) it no bueno. I'm still of the opinion that he stayed on his neck so long because of the crowd that had gathered to record, but not intervene.

he's an asshole, his actions directly resulted in his death, he is going to get convicted, but the race angle is stupid
 

Slander

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evernoob
Interesting screed there. I have my own thoughts on religion being in catholic school up until I graduated college, currently non practiceing. I'm not anti religion, and if it keeps people happy then great, just dont impose upon me. I'm looking at the origin of religion here based on socioeconomic landscape of the time and it growing out of it. What's interesting is we are seeing this happen in real time, almost like the christianity origin story 2020 edition.

Interesting times.
 

dntsdad

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agree with that. choke hold approved or not, sitting on his neck with a blood choke for 4-5 minutes (after he quit talking, meaning he was out) it no bueno. I'm still of the opinion that he stayed on his neck so long because of the crowd that had gathered to record, but not intervene.

he's an asshole, his actions directly resulted in his death, he is going to get convicted, but the race angle is stupid

Agree with this 1000%

If there was nobody around, and not telling him what to do by yelling at him to get off him (Flloyd), he would not have stayed on him that long.

He stayed on him to show those people yelling that HE was the boss and fuck them.
 

Mikel

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Agree with this 1000%

If there was nobody around, and not telling him what to do by yelling at him to get off him (Flloyd), he would not have stayed on him that long.

He stayed on him to show those people yelling that HE was the boss and fuck them.


I agree. I don't think he meant to kill him, but he certainly showed a complete disregard for the person he was arresting. There must be a heavy penalty for that.
 
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IH-SSII

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Rotten Cops, not racism anywhere to the point that Libiots want you to believe. The Cops did bring this shit upon themselves though.
 

dntsdad

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Rotten Cops, not racism anywhere to the point that Libiots want you to believe. The Cops did bring this shit upon themselves though.

Don't know that cop(s) plural would be fair either.

I definitely do NOT thing that Lane and Kueng are rotten at all. Those two will be millionaires with their job if they want it.

The Asian dude I am not sure. Chavun or whatever, absolutely.
 
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