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NFW Ecobox donor cases

YotaAtieToo said:
I've wondered about tapping some fittings and mounting one of those finned aluminum coolers near by. I just don't know if it would do anything without a pump. Unless you could get some sort of convection going.

Also, like 06h3 mentioned, tons of guys have been running the ord doublers on UA for years.
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I don't know much about the ORD units (short or otherwise) ..... but i can recall an occasional failure of the Klune or Atlas. Not many .... so I never gave it much thought.

Not sure if a cooler would do much unless the inlet/outlet are the exact same height (or damned close). That would allow fluid movement by way of churning/whipping/etc. That was why i was mentioning the idea of a larger trough for capacity.
 
EndlessMtnFab said:
AVOID frequent oil changes? :eek:

The thought with sharing (assuming fluid could move back/forth thru ports) was that there would be more volume to heat up and/or mix with cooler fluid.

Midnight said the same thing about "internet legend." But I'm sure there is a bit more truth to it --- it's just getting hard to find with search engines, ads, and redirects. Not to mention lack of active forums. The pump/cooler idea is plausible .... but i'd rather try to keep it simple.
ORD's case ... like Klune and Atlas are larger, based on what i see in the pics. Could be 100% wrong on that, of course.
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Sorry that wasn't worded clearly. What I recall from my phone conversation was that adding the pump and cooler, if you're someone who drives road miles, will allow you to extend time between fluid changes - the pump and cooler adds capacity so less need or risk of toasting the 0.75 qt or whatever.

Without the pump and cooler (adding capacity) it was my understanding you could still run on road but you would need to change fluid much more frequently to be safe. And running on road was clarified as basically non-trailered rigs. I'll be trailering my rig, and even running between end of trail back to the parking spot for a couple hours should be fine I was told.

The pump and cooler sounds pretty basic, the case already has all the provisions for it - threading two fittings in and plumbing/wiring a pump and plumbing a cooler. It's not like if the pump were to fail you're dead in the water like with a fuel pump. If the pump fails and you're for some reason on a cross country trip, just change the fluid a couple times :confused: If the pump fails and you're on a wheeling trip, just keep going, it doesn't sound catastrophic.

If sharing fluid was an easier solution I imagine NWF / ORD / Etc would have figured it out and be doing it.
 
fl0w3n said:
Sorry that wasn't worded clearly. What I recall from my phone conversation was that adding the pump and cooler, if you're someone who drives road miles, will allow you to extend time between fluid changes - the pump and cooler adds capacity so less need or risk of toasting the 0.75 qt or whatever.

Without the pump and cooler (adding capacity) it was my understanding you could still run on road but you would need to change fluid much more frequently to be safe. And running on road was clarified as basically non-trailered rigs. I'll be trailering my rig, and even running between end of trail back to the parking spot for a couple hours should be fine I was told.

The pump and cooler sounds pretty basic, the case already has all the provisions for it - threading two fittings in and plumbing/wiring a pump and plumbing a cooler. It's not like if the pump were to fail you're dead in the water like with a fuel pump. If the pump fails and you're for some reason on a cross country trip, just change the fluid a couple times :confused: If the pump fails and you're on a wheeling trip, just keep going, it doesn't sound catastrophic.

If sharing fluid was an easier solution I imagine NWF / ORD / Etc would have figured it out and be doing it.
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Makes complete sense. Good maintenance is a must. Synthetics too. I recall your post in another thread --- but cannot remember which one offhand.

Your analogy on the pump is correct, I just had a different take. If the pump I plan to use fails ... it's a common Bosch pump. If a local store doesn't have it stand-alone -- I can grab a whole pump & sender unit and just yank the fucker out. So that makes "far away" trips a bit less daunting. The gear pump that was posted, not so much. Yah ... can overnight from Summit Racing. Just gotta find an address. :homer: It's not really the end of the world.

Just piecing ideas & thoughts together.
 
fl0w3n said:
I don't see how "sharing" the fluid between either the trans or the second tcase helps without a pump. I seriously doubt that just by dumb sheer luck the fluid levels are going to balance out exactly as you want, and I'd wager it would put either both units at risk
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If the drains of both cases are connected, both cases vented to atmosphere, the fluid would equalize (think like a sight tube). I'm sure the second case would exert pressure to the crawlbox due to a greater fluid volume, but were talking fraction of PSI.

I dont know how (if any) the tcase gears or planetary would created a vacuum/pressure or not.

Fill to where fluid is at middle of main shaft, or more till it burps it from the vent(s) and sorts itself out.

Which is why I keep going back to a non sealed bearing. Just another avenue to equalize pressure and hopefully aid in fluid transfer.
 
There was an extensive discussion in another thread here about the nwf ecobox/Blackbox fluid overheating issues.

In short, the concensus was that there's not enough fluid volume and that the fluid was being overworked, which caused the fluid to overheat. This resulted in some users (ih8mud people mostly) reporting "burping" out of the nwf doubler breather.

This was somewhat resolved with the second revision of the nwf doubler which increased the fluid capacity. However, not completely resolved for extended highway drives. The solution is to add a scavenge pump, reservoir and cooler.

Shared case doubler designs, like the atlas 4 speed, don't have this problem because of two reasons (speculative);

1. The planetary section isn't always submerged in fluid. This prevents overworking of the fluid. Sufficient fluid is supplied for lubrication without keeping the entire gearset completely submerged.
2. Added total capacity from the whole case volume helps keep temps down.

This whole theory was more or less confirmed (at least for me) by an industrial repair guy here on the forum who reported that stationary gearboxes he worked on, when over filled with fluid, would get so hot they'd cook the paint off the housings. When filled to the proper level, the fluid wasn't overworked, and they would run at normal temperature.

Source: I have a nwf ecobox in my rig, 6 planetary for reference, and have dealt with burnt fluid from long highway drives many times.
 
I also wondered if the finned cooler would make a difference without a pump YotaAtieToo in theory the fluid will probably stay in the cooler but be cooled, wouldn’t it then cool the fluid in the box because a line is between them?

I will say my fluid after highway miles didn’t look cooked but my fluid looked worse after running in 2.72:1 low range for extended periods of time offroad at higher speeds in sand
 
GLTHFJ60 said:
There was an extensive discussion in another thread here about the nwf ecobox/Blackbox fluid overheating issues.
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Was just looking for that thread when you posted. Got a link for the lazy? :lmao:

GLTHFJ60 said:
2. Added total capacity from the whole case volume helps keep temps down.

This whole theory was more or less confirmed (at least for me) by an industrial repair guy here on the forum who reported that stationary gearboxes he worked on, when over filled with fluid, would get so hot they'd cook the paint off the housings. When filled to the proper level, the fluid wasn't overworked, and they would run at normal temperature.

Source: I have a nwf ecobox in my rig, 6 planetary for reference, and have dealt with burnt fluid from long highway drives many times.
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The Atlas case range halves are separate, so no real volume increase. The Atlas doubler half IS larger tho, so the volume increase is from that.

Too much fluid is almost as bad as not enough. Kinda flies against very basic logic ... but them the facts.
 
I'm curious what "fluid" everybody is running in their crawl box. I have always used 85-90w gear oil in the 2 that I've had/have. Do people run ATF?
 
TRINDU said:
If the drains of both cases are connected, both cases vented to atmosphere, the fluid would equalize (think like a sight tube). I'm sure the second case would exert pressure to the crawlbox due to a greater fluid volume, but were talking fraction of PSI.

I dont know how (if any) the tcase gears or planetary would created a vacuum/pressure or not.

Fill to where fluid is at middle of main shaft, or more till it burps it from the vent(s) and sorts itself out.

Which is why I keep going back to a non sealed bearing. Just another avenue to equalize pressure and hopefully aid in fluid transfer.
Click to expand...
Sure, in a perfect static world maybe

Now add the fact that the angle of your drivetrain mounts, tire pressure affecting angle sitting still, and then factor in that if we're using these rigs as intended they're no where near level and constantly changing

On a hill climb, once everything runs back and overfills the ecobox, what's the flow rate back into the trans when it levels out? Fast enough that you're not going to burn up the trans from low fluid? On a downhill engine braking, is all your tcase fluid going to run into the trans and overfill it and cause it to burp out and catch fire? Or starve the ecobox?

Maybe these are all non-issues I'm bringing up... but it seems like a can of worms to open up for what might be considered a non-issue


If you wanna do the research and report back I'm all for it :flipoff2: I just don't want to risk sacrificing mine for a non-issue / something that has a perfectly good fix already
 
DesertCJ said:
I'm curious what "fluid" everybody is running in their crawl box. I have always used 85-90w gear oil in the 2 that I've had/have. Do people run ATF?
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NWF told me MT-90 if you're not running a pump cooler

ATF if you're running pump and cooler
 
GLTHFJ60 said:
Source: I have a nwf ecobox in my rig, 6 planetary for reference, and have dealt with burnt fluid from long highway drives many times.
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So you've burnt the fluid many times and just changed it and no issue?
 
Mt-90 is hard to source round me so I just went 75w-90 synthetic.

No highway miles on mine yet as the salt is still on the roads. But couple months I'll let you know. I'm planning on driving the thing to Tennessee this year. 13 hour drive.
 
fl0w3n said:
Sure, in a perfect static world maybe

Now add the fact that the angle of your drivetrain mounts, tire pressure affecting angle sitting still, and then factor in that if we're using these rigs as intended they're no where near level and constantly changing

On a hill climb, once everything runs back and overfills the ecobox, what's the flow rate back into the trans when it levels out? Fast enough that you're not going to burn up the trans from low fluid? On a downhill engine braking, is all your tcase fluid going to run into the trans and overfill it and cause it to burp out and catch fire? Or starve the ecobox?

Maybe these are all non-issues I'm bringing up... but it seems like a can of worms to open up for what might be considered a non-issue


If you wanna do the research and report back I'm all for it :flipoff2: I just don't want to risk sacrificing mine for a non-issue / something that has a perfectly good fix already
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I'm talking the ecobox and d300(or 205) share fluid, like a 4spd atlas. not sharing fluid with trans.

I dont see how it would be any worse than a basic 231 regarding sloshing forward and back on accent/descending.
 
TRINDU said:
I dont see how it would be any worse than a basic 231 regarding sloshing forward and back on accent/descending.
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Pretty much all the OEM planetary + chain drive cases have a low fluid level so the fluid doesn't get worked too much and then they use a pump to pump it through the shaft and into the planetary.

I don't think sloshing is the problem. I think you'd still be running enough fluid for it to get whipped up by the planetary if you wanted to lube such an arrangement without a pump.
 
fl0w3n said:
Sure, in a perfect static world maybe

If you wanna do the research and report back I'm all for it :flipoff2: I just don't want to risk sacrificing mine for a non-issue / something that has a perfectly good fix already
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There's no research to be done, DMANBLUSFRK already did it, and ran UA and thousands of street miles
 
gozuki said:
There's no research to be done, DMANBLUSFRK already did it, and ran UA and thousands of street miles
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Dman plumbed his to the trans, trindu is talking about sharing with the second tcase.

In either case… yeah you’re right it’s been done and in that specific application it’s been proven.

I’m still waiting on my ecobox so at this point i feel like I’m just beating a dead horse with the discussion. I trailer my rig so I doubt I’ll have an issue. If I do, I’ll address it when it comes up.
 
The ecobox is 100% sealed from the tcase and the center will likely still be higher than the high level on say a 205. You'd have to cross drill the ecobox and the 205/300 at its lowest interior point to share any fluid.
 
It seems like sharing ATF with the trans is the obvious way to go. All this adding external pumps and coolers is just overcomplicating things for no reason. The only downside to sharing fluid is the possibility of hurting the trans if the eco box sheds metal into the fluid.

On an uphill climb you do have trans fluid running back into the box but if your fluid level is correct thats a non issue, also the eco box adds volume to the trans case to account for he expansiin of the extra fluid.

On a downhill slope the fluid runs back to the trans but since the box is pressure fed its still getting plenty of lube.
 
Doubleud said:
It seems like sharing ATF with the trans is the obvious way to go. All this adding external pumps and coolers is just overcomplicating things for no reason. The only downside to sharing fluid is the possibility of hurting the trans if the eco box sheds metal into the fluid.

On an uphill climb you do have trans fluid running back into the box but if your fluid level is correct thats a non issue, also the eco box adds volume to the trans case to account for he expansiin of the extra fluid.

On a downhill slope the fluid runs back to the trans but since the box is pressure fed its still getting plenty of lube.
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I thought about the fluid running forward or back, but since the thing probably only holds ~1 1/2qts completely full, it should be a non issue if you over fill the trans a bit like most do. maybe a full on buggy that hits vertical waterfalls every weekend it wouldn't be a good idea, but I think most everyone else it's great.
 
Not everyone has a trans with ATF.

But the planetaries can take either fluid. Hence my original thought about sharing fluid with the trans either way.
 
Most manual trans don't have pumps, and the planetaries are mostly above the fill line, not to mention the reduced size of the adapter opening. There'd be no way to actively lubricate it on a manual trans.
 
Not sure if this is the right thread, but has anyone used these guys?

froehlichsuspension-com.3dcartstores.com

NP231 Doubler Adapter-FS-NP-231

froehlichsuspension-com.3dcartstores.com

It's the original style 231 doubler that uses a cut down stock case. They seemed to work fine for the stock engine guys. Iirc the eco box was barely more when it was first released and everyone just went that way. Now its over double the price and 3+ month wait. Obviously the billet case is nice and all, but all this worry of over heating, I'd bet the stock, thinner finned case is much better at shedding heat.
 
YotaAtieToo said:
Not sure if this is the right thread, but has anyone used these guys?

froehlichsuspension-com.3dcartstores.com

NP231 Doubler Adapter-FS-NP-231

froehlichsuspension-com.3dcartstores.com

It's the original style 231 doubler that uses a cut down stock case. They seemed to work fine for the stock engine guys. Iirc the eco box was barely more when it was first released and everyone just went that way. Now its over double the price and 3+ month wait. Obviously the billet case is nice and all, but all this worry of over heating, I'd bet the stock, thinner finned case is much better at shedding heat.
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I doubt it. The thicker the material, the more heat it will absorb. The heat is transferred to the outer surface so the stock case probably has a slight advantage there in overall surface area/heat shedding but the thinner case cant absorb as much energy/heat as the thick billet case.
 
DesertCJ said:
I doubt it. The thicker the material, the more heat it will absorb. The heat is transferred to the outer surface so the stock case probably has a slight advantage there in overall surface area/heat shedding but the thinner case cant absorb as much energy/heat as the thick billet case.
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That makes zero sense to me, why would you want the case to absorb heat? You want it to get rid of it?
 
YotaAtieToo said:
That makes zero sense to me, why would you want the case to absorb heat? You want it to get rid of it?
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Because the oil is what's hot...the case absorbs heat from the oil and will transfer it to the cold side...outside where the air is cooling the case. The case is only going to get as hot as the oil inside. A thicker case is going to take higher oil temps to reach the same temp as the thinner case if they both basically have the same surface area.
 
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