Moon Patrol Buggy Build

[YeeP]

Sure.
But at least you'd have one path forward vs being stumped.



My advice : go as wide as you can on the axles. Being wide has very few drawbacks unless you're rockcrawling competitively. And it will help tremendously on all other aspects of the build.

This is exactly why I left more steel on the axle tubes. I figured worst case, I could make it wider. I picked the current width hoping that some day I could afford an enclosed trailer and this would fit between the fenders in it (not having to spend more money)... Seems kinda silly when I spell it out.

i will second the holly shit out of wide. 91 outside tire to outside of tire.

it will help in all kinds of ways that you may not even see right now.

OK, well that would help me a lot. I am getting influenced that going too wide is a mistake by local peeps. My only limitation is that I could get it to fit on the trailer. Im not going to buy a trailer with the deck over the tires, but I do have drive over fenders on my current trailer.

 

[Sterlingfire]

So for temp links what i do is use cheap 1 1/2" pipe from home depot. You can tack the bungs in and it will get you better measurements along with not having to do the hanky shit you had to do to get them to stay together for axle swinging... once i get out to the shop today I'll get a pic for you. If you check my build thread in the Chevy section you'll see as well.

 

[YeeP]

So for temp links what i do is use cheap 1 1/2" pipe from home depot. You can tack the bungs in and it will get you better measurements along with not having to do the hanky shit you had to do to get them to stay together for axle swinging... once i get out to the shop today I'll get a pic for you. If you check my build thread in the Chevy section you'll see as well.

Thanks man, I actually do have that pipe sitting on the floor ready to do what you are talking about. The lame ass plastic is really just to make sure that nothing is obviously going to hit and stuff. As soon as I make a change, then I waste more pipe. So I was trying to not churn through a bunch of the ever increasing steel.

I was thinking I'd step to the steel pipe when I get to a "set design", and Im ready to actually grind some steel out of the mounts Im going to use to make the angles correct. Think that is a bad idea?

I did buy two jam nuts per rod end for this, so I can use one as a "tube adapter" for mock up when I can finally use the steel. Please feel free to share anything picture wise that might help.

 

[Bebop]

This is exactly why I left more steel on the axle tubes. I figured worst case, I could make it wider. I picked the current width hoping that some day I could afford an enclosed trailer and this would fit between the fenders in it (not having to spend more money)... Seems kinda silly when I spell it out.

I have both an enclosed and open trailer. Rig is wide AF (93" outside of tires) and fits in both, driving over the fenders in both cases.

OK, well that would help me a lot. I am getting influenced that going too wide is a mistake by local peeps. My only limitation is that I could get it to fit on the trailer. Im not going to buy a trailer with the deck over the tires, but I do have drive over fenders on my current trailer.

This is what I mean when I'm talking about inconsistencies :

Local guys are telling you something (stay narrow) so you're all about doing like they told you.
Local guys are telling you something else (single shear is fine) and you will go to extreme length to do the opposite because... reasons.



Like you said, if the only reason why you want to stay narrow is fitting inside a trailer, especially knowing that they make wide trailers that could fit a wider rig, this is a dumb reason.







Instead of using pipe that you have to waster every time you're changing your mind on, build 4 adjustable links that you can extend and retract to change lengths. Also, don't use bungs, just tack weld some jam nuts to the tube ends.

 

[chaplinfj60]

This is exactly why I left more steel on the axle tubes. I figured worst case, I could make it wider. I picked the current width hoping that some day I could afford an enclosed trailer and this would fit between the fenders in it (not having to spend more money)... Seems kinda silly when I spell it out.



OK, well that would help me a lot. I am getting influenced that going too wide is a mistake by local peeps. My only limitation is that I could get it to fit on the trailer. Im not going to buy a trailer with the deck over the tires, but I do have drive over fenders on my current trailer.

only thing that hurts me being wide is i make alot of 3 point turns thats dues to having poor steering angles. but i am willing to live with that, and i have alot of trees and tight trails, so i built nerf bars on the sides to kick the rear end out.

 

[YeeP]

I have both an enclosed and open trailer. Rig is wide AF (93" outside of tires) and fits in both, driving over the fenders in both cases.

Cool, well the widest I can go is 4 inches more without having to weld tube back onto the housing (really don't think thats something I want to do).
With the new measurements I got from Matt Cuttler, I can re-calculate my overall width to get an idea on that.

This is what I mean when I'm talking about inconsistencies :

Local guys are telling you something (stay narrow) so you're all about doing like they told you.
Local guys are telling you something else (single shear is fine) and you will go to extreme length to do the opposite because... reasons.

Fair enough. Sorry man, just how I am. I don't have a good explanation. I wasn't exactly all about doing what they told me.... its a longer story than I think any of us is interested in going over.

Like you said, if the only reason why you want to stay narrow is fitting inside a trailer, especially knowing that they make wide trailers that could fit a wider rig, this is a dumb reason.

OK, Im cool with that

Instead of using pipe that you have to waster every time you're changing your mind on, build 4 adjustable links that you can extend and retract to change lengths. Also, don't use bungs, just tack weld some jam nuts to the tube ends.

Man, this is a great fucking idea. I can easily do this. Thank you. I just need some 1&1/4" all thread I suppose.

 

[YeeP]

only thing that hurts me being wide is i make alot of 3 point turns thats dues to having poor steering angles. but i am willing to live with that, and i have alot of trees and tight trails, so i built nerf bars on the sides to kick the rear end out.

I think I got that issue covered. With the rear steer and what I think is respectful 43 degrees of steer on each, I think I'll be ok. Def better than my old king pin CJ with the 5 point turns.

 

[chaplinfj60]

i should have flopped. Wide is good.

 

[Bebop]

Man, this is a great fucking idea. I can easily do this. Thank you. I just need some 1&1/4" all thread I suppose.

Way too complicated.

Get some 2 25" long pieces of tube that slide over each other. Then adjust them to whatever length you want. Tack weld the 2 tubes together when you reach the overall length you want to mock up at.
Cut tack weld and grind when you want to move the overall length.

 

[chaplinfj60]

Way too complicated.

Get some 2 25" long pieces of tube that slide over each other. Then adjust them to whatever length you want. Tack weld the 2 tubes together when you reach the overall length you want to mock up at.
Cut tack weld and grind when you want to move the overall length.

this

 

[YeeP]

Way too complicated.

Get some 2 25" long pieces of tube that slide over each other. Then adjust them to whatever length you want. Tack weld the 2 tubes together when you reach the overall length you want to mock up at.
Cut tack weld and grind when you want to move the overall length.

Ok, Im down with that. wonder if I can find something to fit nicely with the 1.5" pipe I already have like 20 feet of... I normally don't buy pipe, but I got a deal on a stick of it and figured I'd need it if I had to scrap some for measurement changes.

 

[Bebop]

Well I mean, if you have 20ft already and you won't use it, just cut mock up links out of that.

Don't go buy new shit ! The goal is to stay simple lol

 

[Sterlingfire]

Thanks man, I actually do have that pipe sitting on the floor ready to do what you are talking about. The lame ass plastic is really just to make sure that nothing is obviously going to hit and stuff. As soon as I make a change, then I waste more pipe. So I was trying to not churn through a bunch of the ever increasing steel.

I was thinking I'd step to the steel pipe when I get to a "set design", and Im ready to actually grind some steel out of the mounts Im going to use to make the angles correct. Think that is a bad idea?

I did buy two jam nuts per rod end for this, so I can use one as a "tube adapter" for mock up when I can finally use the steel. Please feel free to share anything picture wise that might help.

Meh, a set design will change. I just cut mine longer then i know I'll need and step it back from there. Just go slowly and never take too much off. Cycle often. Jam nuts will work for sure, probably easier to center up and keep from oblonging the links while tightening.
What do you mean grind out the mounts? Do you mean cope them to the axle at the right angle? That's not a bad idea as long as you don't take too much at once.
Too bad you're not closer...i have literal tons of that pipe going to scrap. It's a byproduct of my business.
Keep at it. You're making better progress then i am at this point

 

[YeeP]

Meh, a set design will change. I just cut mine longer then i know I'll need and step it back from there. Just go slowly and never take too much off. Cycle often. Jam nuts will work for sure, probably easier to center up and keep from oblonging the links while tightening.
What do you mean grind out the mounts? Do you mean cope them to the axle at the right angle? That's not a bad idea as long as you don't take too much at once.
Too bad you're not closer...i have literal tons of that pipe going to scrap. It's a byproduct of my business.
Keep at it. You're making better progress then i am at this point

Thanks man. Yeah you used a better term. What Im saying is, I got some prefab brackets that are 10 degrees, knowing that I would have to adjust them. I don't want to make those changes until I know Im close.

I did some research on tube sizes to pipe... The easiest fit to have the telescoping mock arms, at this point, would be a 1.5" tube, it could even be HREW because it would go on the inside. Another option could be 2.25 OD, .120 wall DOM. which would be .10" over the pipe size. I can see positives and negatives as far as getting close to what the actual 7075 links will be. The cheapest method would probably to just pickup the 1.5" HREW and add a little "buffer" around them when I am checking clearances.

Not sure what you guys are rockin for 7075 (if you have it).
I have 1&1/4" rod ends - upper and lower
Been told 2" upper would be best but a "light weight rig" can run 1.75" upper
Been told 2.25 - 2.5" lower

All my weight estimates have aimed for sub 4K before water.

That seem reasonable? My uppers are going to be the limiting factor for steering at full compression. I don't mind if I rub a little. Seems like an additional .125" of clearance for steering might not be worth the loss in strength at the threads.

 

[YeeP]

Current calculated overall width is 84.25". I can bump that up to 88.25 without having to do anything major.

 

[Sterlingfire]

Thanks man. Yeah you used a better term. What Im saying is, I got some prefab brackets that are 10 degrees, knowing that I would have to adjust them. I don't want to make those changes until I know Im close.

I did some research on tube sizes to pipe... The easiest fit to have the telescoping mock arms, at this point, would be a 1.5" tube, it could even be HREW because it would go on the inside. Another option could be 2.25 OD, .120 wall DOM. which would be .10" over the pipe size. I can see positives and negatives as far as getting close to what the actual 7075 links will be. The cheapest method would probably to just pickup the 1.5" HREW and add a little "buffer" around them when I am checking clearances.

Not sure what you guys are rockin for 7075 (if you have it).
I have 1&1/4" rod ends - upper and lower
Been told 2" upper would be best but a "light weight rig" can run 1.75" upper
Been told 2.25 - 2.5" lower

All my weight estimates have aimed for sub 4K before water.

That seem reasonable? My uppers are going to be the limiting factor for steering at full compression. I don't mind if I rub a little. Seems like an additional .125" of clearance for steering might not be worth the loss in strength at the threads.

My brackets are ten degrees and no coping necessary. My links are~48" and the frame end brackets touch in the middle of my chassis. You have more play then you think in them. Especially if you're running traditional heims.
1 1/2" pipe is about 1.9" outside diameter. It gets you pretty close to the right size for uppers, but your lowers are likely going to need to be 2.25 depending on weight...

 

[SMI17]

my buddies dis agreed with my suspension design at first because i wanted lower belly, but you see that fell into the area of will not compromise, and once that was established forward progress happened. for no better way to put it, my plan became there plan regard less of the fuckerie i was doing, sure i had them moments of your over thinking it again, just do this damit..... we all go down that road when we are trying to create our own automobile form a pile of steel in the garage.

I can just hear Dave saying something about a hammer and making shit fit. I told him that when I was planning the buggys 3link years ago. Haha.

 

['84 Bronco II]

Current calculated overall width is 84.25". I can bump that up to 88.25 without having to do anything major.

I guess I missed it, what is the issue with width? Looked like you had clearance to turn 43" tires Mid-80"s is perfect for width for something on 40-43" tires in my opinion. While the additional width helps with stability, it effectively lowers the "breakover" angle between your tires, which is a big consideration if you like to play on big boulders. It also hurts maneuverability to some degree and can limit line choices. It is better to add stability by lowering your C.G. in my opinion rather than by increasing your foot print, but obviously the latter is easier.

I appreciate the details of your posts and they do a good job of highlighting all the non-glamourous aspects of a build like this rather than just showing off pretty welds and the exciting pieces coming together.

I mean this in a constructive way, as I face many of the same issues with my build as far as budget and paralysis by analysis, but I agree with everything Bebop wrote. I think you did yourself a huge disservice going with this chassis rather than one desingned with your build parameters in mind and have been fighting it the whole time. What's done is done at this point and I am not trying to discourage you from going down the path that you're on. I think Bepop covered it pretty well, so my one addition is that there is no way in hell I would paint my chassis black, or any shade close to it I know it is cooler in the summer in Colorado, but it is still sunny and black gets scorching hot even on days in the 80ºs. Also, I get you want a "showy" color to match the bouncer theme, but I wouldn't get something you can't touch up easily. I've thought about powdercoating my chassis, but I am pretty sure I am going to spray bomb it when the time come so touch ups are easy and blend well.

 

[Bebop]

I face many of the same issues with my build as far as budget and paralysis by analysis, but I agree with everything Bebop wrote.

Imma add something and you know I'm right : If you were building your rig like Tim planned you wouldn't have those issues
Get back to work

Appreciate the kind words ;)

 

[chaplinfj60]

Well I mean, if you have 20ft already and you won't use it, just cut mock up links out of that.

Don't go buy new shit ! The goal is to stay simple lo

I can just hear Dave saying something about a hammer and making shit fit. I told him that when I was planning the buggys 3link years ago. Haha.

It is true. Your over thinking it chappy.

Lol. Lol.

 

[YeeP]

I guess I missed it, what is the issue with width? Looked like you had clearance to turn 43" tires Mid-80"s is perfect for width for something on 40-43" tires in my opinion. While the additional width helps with stability, it effectively lowers the "breakover" angle between your tires, which is a big consideration if you like to play on big boulders. It also hurts maneuverability to some degree and can limit line choices. It is better to add stability by lowering your C.G. in my opinion rather than by increasing your foot print, but obviously the latter is easier.

Hey man, thanks for weighing in.
So to bring you up to speed; the width change was suggested as a problem solver for a couple issues:
1) ability to increase convergence angle on the lowers
2) possibly be able to increase steering angle (currently at 42.5 degrees of steer, would like to hit 45)
3) With my current setup I had to move the uppers on the axle side more outward. I could use a little extra axle tube to attach stuff to.

I would not be doing it for any increased performance aspect, although that could be a gain I would get out of it in some aspects.

I totally agree with you that it can limit line choices, I experienced that in my CJ. (This reminds me I know I have a WMS to WMS measurement somewhere, Ill need to do that so I can compare where Im at to my old king pin 60).


I would be interested in any specific ideas you think I should address in the design if you think I can stay where I am at. My local buddy had a similar opinion to yours on width, so this is not the first time I have heard it.

The main issues I see right now that are troubling about the design are:
1) Arm length feels short
2) Decreased convergence angle caused by moving the uppers outward on the axle side to clear the pinion yoke at full stuff
3) Decreased space available on top of axle tube caused by moving uppers outward

I'd be happy to provide different pics if that would help.

I appreciate the details of your posts and they do a good job of highlighting all the non-glamourous aspects of a build like this rather than just showing off pretty welds and the exciting pieces coming together.

Thanks man, I was real nervous that I couldn't keep up with the joneses and their weld porn, so I just decided to keep it as real as I can. My thought was, if I read this build when I was about to start, would it help me with some issues I ran into.

I mean this in a constructive way, as I face many of the same issues with my build as far as budget and paralysis by analysis, but I agree with everything Bebop wrote. I think you did yourself a huge disservice going with this chassis rather than one desingned with your build parameters in mind and have been fighting it the whole time. What's done is done at this point and I am not trying to discourage you from going down the path that you're on.

Yeah while it hurts to admit, you are correct. To be brutally honest, we all have certain stuff we have to deal with in our at home life and budgeting with a family. This was the easiest way to convince other interested parties that I could/should start a project (vs ordered a stack of sticks from the local steel yard). I can't go back, only forward. I don't feel like airing dirty laundry here, but just take my word; this is my only choice to continue with this, I may not be able to build another in the future, I'm willing to put in lots of labor to try to solve problems and make it "right".

I think Bepop covered it pretty well, so my one addition is that there is no way in hell I would paint my chassis black, or any shade close to it I know it is cooler in the summer in Colorado, but it is still sunny and black gets scorching hot even on days in the 80ºs.

So I have to disagree here about the heat. With a show of hands; who has a black painted roll cage? Yup, thats what I thought. I don't know one person that I wheel with on a consistent basis that doesn't have a black cage. My CJ had an aluminum "bikini" to keep the shade on me, which I plan to do something similar here. Unless the added reflection of the powder coat will add to the temp, I don't see how this would be a problem.

However, let's play this out for my own edification. Are you maybe suggesting like a flat black? Or should I be looking at lighter colors in general? Have you found that if you are wheeling with someone that has say a white cage, and you grab it mid day, can you physically feel that the temperature is not as high as a black one? I'm not questioning that black will get hotter just based on its absorption of light, but what have your hands told you on this matter?

Also, I get you want a "showy" color to match the bouncer theme, but I wouldn't get something you can't touch up easily. I've thought about powdercoating my chassis, but I am pretty sure I am going to spray bomb it when the time come so touch ups are easy and blend well.

This is the hardest part for me too. I know it's going to get messed up, I ain't afraid to roll. The rattle can stuff is so much easier to keep it looking like it did. I am usually so anti bling, anti showy, but I feel like wtf.. I have never done it, it would look cool and over time it will have some scars. I dunno. There for sure is an added cost.

My original thought was it would be cool to have like that "Bass Tacker" fishing boat like 80s heavy gold flake. Honestly cause it looks ridiculous and fun. No form of logic applied, purely based on look. I know Bebop will point this out as an inconsistency so


EDIT: 'DIY' gold flake... Custom Shop Flakes

 

[chaplinfj60]

paint, its a double edge sword for me. on one hand i want it to look good but no matter what i do it comes off, either by rock rash, power washer or oils breaking down paint. so i use black from rustolem or cheap walmart spray cans. but now i think i am over it. and clean up is a bitch, sure you can wash off the mud, but unless you scrub with soap each bar it looks like like shit when it drys, and you never get all the mud off so its always at a state of dirty ness. hahaha personaly i wish i would have went down bebops path and not painted..

. so i did an experiment with some vinyl wrap on a side panel and i think i will go this route, just wrap my panels in what ever color i decide and be done.

 

[YeeP]

paint, its a double edge sword for me. on one hand i want it to look good but no matter what i do it comes off, either by rock rash, power washer or oils breaking down paint. so i use black from rustolem or cheap walmart spray cans. but now i think i am over it. and clean up is a bitch, sure you can wash off the mud, but unless you scrub with soap each bar it looks like like shit when it drys, and you never get all the mud off so its always at a state of dirty ness. hahaha personaly i wish i would have went down bebops path and not painted..

I have a buddy that did not paint his either. He just sprays it with "Gibs" and wipes it down.

. so i did an experiment with some vinyl wrap on a side panel and i think i will go this route, just wrap my panels in what ever color i decide and be done.

Let me know how that goes. I am also considering this on body panels. I have heard that it will not fair well with rock rash... will you just cover it again after it gets damaged (essentially just covering up whats behind it)?

 

[SMI17]

No point in spending a lot on painting a tube chassis that will get used, spray can or single stage is good. My current buggy is Rustoluim Bright metallic blue, still looks good 10yrs later even with all the rash.

 

[chaplinfj60]

so this little bit of wrap i had survived 4 days at RMR in Oklahoma, the more i think about it i am not sure i would do anything if it get damaged till it starts to peel off. from what i can tell it just sticks real good and looks the part. maybe a well placed sticker will cover up some damaged spots. and the 1/8 alum panel helps the cage from taking brunt of the damage when it does impact a rock, spreads the load a bit.

 

[YeeP]

so this little bit of wrap i had survived 4 days at RMR in Oklahoma, the more i think about it i am not sure i would do anything if it get damaged till it starts to peel off. from what i can tell it just sticks real good and looks the part. maybe a well placed sticker will cover up some damaged spots. and the 1/8 alum panel helps the cage from taking brunt of the damage when it does impact a rock, spreads the load a bit.

Fair enough. I guess that would make sense to see it that way. I guess my thought on the paint vs vinyl on the body panels is this:
I'd rather replace the body panels when they are too mangled, and deal with the color at that point. If the vinyl wrap is so messed up that I'm having to change it out before the body panel is ruined, is it worth it?

I don't have any experience here to say it will or wont be that way, just talking.

 

[chaplinfj60]

the wrap is crazy simple to mess with and since wrapping is not our day job we can have wrinkle or two in it. hahaha its cheap too

i even put it over a dented panel just because i was not gonna make a new panel.

again i have no experience with this, no clue how it will handle sun exposure or any of that jazz. who knows it may fad like mad. crap shoot

 

['84 Bronco II]

Hey man, thanks for weighing in.
So to bring you up to speed; the width change was suggested as a problem solver for a couple issues:
1) ability to increase convergence angle on the lowers
2) possibly be able to increase steering angle (currently at 42.5 degrees of steer, would like to hit 45)
3) With my current setup I had to move the uppers on the axle side more outward. I could use a little extra axle tube to attach stuff to.

I would not be doing it for any increased performance aspect, although that could be a gain I would get out of it in some aspects.

I totally agree with you that it can limit line choices, I experienced that in my CJ. (This reminds me I know I have a WMS to WMS measurement somewhere, Ill need to do that so I can compare where Im at to my old king pin 60).


I would be interested in any specific ideas you think I should address in the design if you think I can stay where I am at. My local buddy had a similar opinion to yours on width, so this is not the first time I have heard it.

The main issues I see right now that are troubling about the design are:
1) Arm length feels short
2) Decreased convergence angle caused by moving the uppers outward on the axle side to clear the pinion yoke at full stuff
3) Decreased space available on top of axle tube caused by moving uppers outward

I'd be happy to provide different pics if that would help.

As far as the "minimum" convergence angle, I've seen 40-45° thrown around, but that is a rule of thumb. Probably not a bad rule of thumb, but less convergenge angle just means side loads are going to put more force on your links. Assuming your brackets, joints, and links are beefy enough, you can get by with less in theory. From the calculator image you posted, you are just above 45°, so I don't think you should be too worried about it. I am no suspension expert, but here are my thoughts:

• It looks like you could probably use some more vertical separation at the axle end (looks like you only have 8.125" now). I think most guys target around 10" or 1/4 the tire diameter as a rule of thumb. This would help give you more clearance around the pinion yoke and allow you to potentially bring the uppers in a little closer at the axle end. If you get the axle side upper up above the pinion yoke, would you be able to get the separation between the upper mounts more like 20"?
• In conjunction I think raising the chassis-side upper mounts and moving them outward to the tube shown below will also help the yoke clearance situation. Some downward slope towards the chassis on the front uppers is desirable, but what you have looks excessive, especially if you raise the axle end anothe couple of inches higher.
• 
• On the lowers, I would move the axle end all the way out to the "C", or closer to 40" horizontal separation between the lower axle brackets, and pull the chassis-side lower brackets inward as far as necessary to clear the tire at lock.
• I would also look at raising the chassis-side lower mounts .5-1" and the axle side lower mounts 1-2".
• According to the calculator, your lowers are just over 32", which is on the short side, but not terrible. I wouldn't worry about the length of your uppers as long as the pinion/caster chage through travel isn't doing anything crazy. You are either going to have to extend the wheelbase or shorten the rear up to get longer lowers since the belly kind of dictates your lower mounting position.

I posted the numbers for my buggy which is a known performer based on other builds set up per the chassis builders specification if you want to reference that. Obviously, you can't duplicate that geometry, but maybe it can give you a feel whether your gemetry is in the ball park.

I wouldn't kill yourself trying to get 45° of steering over 42.5°, especially in a 4 wheel steer car. I doubt you would every really be able to tell the difference from the driver seat unless you were competing, and even then I don't think it is worth the headache you are looking at to get that extra little bit.

Yeah while it hurts to admit, you are correct. To be brutally honest, we all have certain stuff we have to deal with in our at home life and budgeting with a family. This was the easiest way to convince other interested parties that I could/should start a project (vs ordered a stack of sticks from the local steel yard). I can't go back, only forward. I don't feel like airing dirty laundry here, but just take my word; this is my only choice to continue with this, I may not be able to build another in the future, I'm willing to put in lots of labor to try to solve problems and make it "right".

Definitely don't read that as me suggesting that you start over with another chassis. It was kind of a hindsight comment since you've already realized the consequences of your chassis choice and there's no sense changing horses mid race.

So I have to disagree here about the heat. With a show of hands; who has a black painted roll cage? Yup, thats what I thought. I don't know one person that I wheel with on a consistent basis that doesn't have a black cage. My CJ had an aluminum "bikini" to keep the shade on me, which I plan to do something similar here. Unless the added reflection of the powder coat will add to the temp, I don't see how this would be a problem.

However, let's play this out for my own edification. Are you maybe suggesting like a flat black? Or should I be looking at lighter colors in general? Have you found that if you are wheeling with someone that has say a white cage, and you grab it mid day, can you physically feel that the temperature is not as high as a black one? I'm not questioning that black will get hotter just based on its absorption of light, but what have your hands told you on this matter?


This is the hardest part for me too. I know it's going to get messed up, I ain't afraid to roll. The rattle can stuff is so much easier to keep it looking like it did. I am usually so anti bling, anti showy, but I feel like wtf.. I have never done it, it would look cool and over time it will have some scars. I dunno. There for sure is an added cost.

My original thought was it would be cool to have like that "Bass Tacker" fishing boat like 80s heavy gold flake. Honestly cause it looks ridiculous and fun. No form of logic applied, purely based on look. I know Bebop will point this out as an inconsistency so /https://data.irate4x4.com/assets/smilies/thefinger.gif


EDIT: 'DIY' gold flake... Custom Shop Flakes

Lets play a game, come down to NM in the summer and see how long you can stand to hold on to a black cage that has been parked for 10 minutes in the sun

I am considering painting mine white, and I don't even like white. I haven't pulled an IR gun out to test the difference between different colors, but I am actually planning on doing just that when I select a color for mine. I can tell you there can easily be close to a 50°F difference in metal painted white vs. black in the sun. I am also, never going to buy another set of black seats as long as I live. My buggy will have white or a really light color.

Of course, the trails in CO have a lot more trees and the ambient temperature is not as high either, so you might be perfectly happy with black. Personally I am going to go with something a lot lighter if not white.

 

[YeeP]

As far as the "minimum" convergence angle, I've seen 40-45° thrown around, but that is a rule of thumb. Probably not a bad rule of thumb, but less convergenge angle just means side loads are going to put more force on your links. Assuming your brackets, joints, and links are beefy enough, you can get by with less in theory. From the calculator image you posted, you are just above 45°, so I don't think you should be too worried about it. I am no suspension expert, but here are my thoughts:

• It looks like you could probably use some more vertical separation at the axle end (looks like you only have 8.125" now). I think most guys target around 10" or 1/4 the tire diameter as a rule of thumb. This would help give you more clearance around the pinion yoke and allow you to potentially bring the uppers in a little closer at the axle end. If you get the axle side upper up above the pinion yoke, would you be able to get the separation between the upper mounts more like 20"?

Ill see what I can do to get closer to that 10"

• In conjunction I think raising the chassis-side upper mounts and moving them outward to the tube shown below will also help the yoke clearance situation. Some downward slope towards the chassis on the front uppers is desirable, but what you have looks excessive, especially if you raise the axle end anothe couple of inches higher.
• 

Good suggestion, I had thought of going outward on the frame side upper, but the tire is already hitting on flex, so the axle side would have to go way in quite a bit.

Your suggestion about raising the uppers on the axle side is good, my original design had me with the Y measurement at 11" off center (now at 13.75). The pinion really digs into the upper arm at this position when compressing one side, I even re-drilled my mock up brackets to two inches higher, and it still hit. It's not hard to make these mock up brackets, so I can see just how much height I need to clear it at that position. Eventually its going to cause me issues with compression and clearing the radiator. I do know the shortest radiator height I think can work though so I can play with it.

• On the lowers, I would move the axle end all the way out to the "C", or closer to 40" horizontal separation between the lower axle brackets, and pull the chassis-side lower brackets inward as far as necessary to clear the tire at lock.

This brings us to the issue where widening the axle was suggested. However, I will see if I bring them extremely close on the frame side, exactly how far I can go out the axle side. At least at ride height. I don't know if it is physically possible right now for me to achieve 40" of horizontal separation. I'll get an inner C width measurement.

• I would also look at raising the chassis-side lower mounts .5-1" and the axle side lower mounts 1-2".

Current lower brackets at frame side: Tube Link Mount Bracket Pair
Current lower brackets at axle side: Axle Link Mount Bracket Pair
Both the chassis and axle lowers height was selected based on where the bottom of the bracket would be parallel to the ground. Essentially an effort to maximize vertical separation but still keep the bottom smooth.

Going up on the axle will be easy, going up at the chassis is very tight.
Any reason why 1-2" on lower? obviously I would have to add at least 1-2" up on the uppers to maintain the same vertical separation, plus the additional to gain the 10" goal.

• According to the calculator, your lowers are just over 32", which is on the short side, but not terrible. I wouldn't worry about the length of your uppers as long as the pinion/caster chage through travel isn't doing anything crazy. You are either going to have to extend the wheelbase or shorten the rear up to get longer lowers since the belly kind of dictates your lower mounting position.

I posted the numbers for my buggy which is a known performer based on other builds set up per the chassis builders specification if you want to reference that. Obviously, you can't duplicate that geometry, but maybe it can give you a feel whether your gemetry is in the ball park.

Bebop and I had an awesome conversation about this. I was concerned about ending up with a longer wheelbase than I wanted to start. After chatting about it I guess I need to take the stance that the chassis is going to dictate where stuff goes to me. I should setup the front the way I want it, then see where the rear ends up. This does take some mental strain off of me as I was ready to start mocking the rear to see if I could move it forward.

Do you have a link or a name of your thread? I would be interested in checking out your numbers.

I wouldn't kill yourself trying to get 45° of steering over 42.5°, especially in a 4 wheel steer car. I doubt you would every really be able to tell the difference from the driver seat unless you were competing, and even then I don't think it is worth the headache you are looking at to get that extra little bit.

Good, that helps.

Definitely don't read that as me suggesting that you start over with another chassis. It was kind of a hindsight comment since you've already realized the consequences of your chassis choice and there's no sense changing horses mid race.



Lets play a game, come down to NM in the summer and see how long you can stand to hold on to a black cage that has been parked for 10 minutes in the sun

I am considering painting mine white, and I don't even like white. I haven't pulled an IR gun out to test the difference between different colors, but I am actually planning on doing just that when I select a color for mine. I can tell you there can easily be close to a 50°F difference in metal painted white vs. black in the sun. I am also, never going to buy another set of black seats as long as I live. My buggy will have white or a really light color.

Of course, the trails in CO have a lot more trees and the ambient temperature is not as high either, so you might be perfectly happy with black. Personally I am going to go with something a lot lighter if not white.

I have been to Farmington in the mid summer but I wasn't in my own rig. I have also been to Las Cruces but its usually early spring and still a little chilly. Either way though you have a good point. I just don't see me doing anything other than black. This is still way out there though, but I enjoy getting opinions. To be honest, Moab is a common trip for me, so I do end up in some heat.

---

Lot of suggestions here, need to make notes of what I need to check on later(action items if you will)...

1. Check steering clearance for lowers.
   1. What is the widest at the axle, narrowest at the chassis that I can achieve?
2. Check vertical clearance for brackets and chassis side lowers
   1. Get pic for comparison
3. Get measurement for distance between Inner-Cs
4. Cut some new mock brackets for upper that are "pretty tall" (4 to 5 inches taller than rev 6)

 

['84 Bronco II]

Ill see what I can do to get closer to that 10"


Good suggestion, I had thought of going outward on the frame side upper, but the tire is already hitting on flex, so the axle side would have to go way in quite a bit.

Your suggestion about raising the uppers on the axle side is good, my original design had me with the Y measurement at 11" off center (now at 13.75). The pinion really digs into the upper arm at this position when compressing one side, I even re-drilled my mock up brackets to two inches higher, and it still hit. It's not hard to make these mock up brackets, so I can see just how much height I need to clear it at that position. Eventually its going to cause me issues with compression and clearing the radiator. I do know the shortest radiator height I think can work though so I can play with it.


This brings us to the issue where widening the axle was suggested. However, I will see if I bring them extremely close on the frame side, exactly how far I can go out the axle side. At least at ride height. I don't know if it is physically possible right now for me to achieve 40" of horizontal separation. I'll get an inner C width measurement.


Current lower brackets at frame side: Tube Link Mount Bracket Pair
Current lower brackets at axle side: Axle Link Mount Bracket Pair
Both the chassis and axle lowers height was selected based on where the bottom of the bracket would be parallel to the ground. Essentially an effort to maximize vertical separation but still keep the bottom smooth.

Going up on the axle will be easy, going up at the chassis is very tight.
Any reason why 1-2" on lower? obviously I would have to add at least 1-2" up on the uppers to maintain the same vertical separation, plus the additional to gain the 10" goal.



Bebop and I had an awesome conversation about this. I was concerned about ending up with a longer wheelbase than I wanted to start. After chatting about it I guess I need to take the stance that the chassis is going to dictate where stuff goes to me. I should setup the front the way I want it, then see where the rear ends up. This does take some mental strain off of me as I was ready to start mocking the rear to see if I could move it forward.

Do you have a link or a name of your thread? I would be interested in checking out your numbers.

Here are my link numbers. Looking back, my rolling radius is optimistic, so I should probably update it with a more realistic radius. My thread is Here, but not much has been happening with it lately.

I might as well post up some numbers from the buggy I am building. The weights and CG location are educated guesses since it is not built yet, but I think they should be pretty close based on similar builds.

The link mounting locations are based on chassis mounts I bought from the builder and his notes on how to set up the link mounting locations on both the axles and chassis. The rear chassis-side mounts and the front chassis-side lowers are already welded in, but the front chassis-side uppers and axle-side mounting locations front and rear could be tweaked if needed.
I am not really concerned about anything in particular since I know these chassis setup to the builder's specifications perform very well.

Now that I look at my numbers again, my chassis builder only specifies 9" of vertical separation in the front. What is your target belly height again? I added mine (19") as a parameter in the calculator and have all of my chassis-side mount heights (Z) as a function of the belly height, and have all of the axle-side mount heights as a function of the rolling radius of the tire. The heights for your mount centerpoints for both ends of your lowers is below the centerline of your wheels. I was suggesting raising them purely from clearance perspective. Having the axle end mounted above the centerline of the wheel helps keep your link angle flatter assuming your belly isn't way below your wheel centerline.

I have been to Farmington in the mid summer but I wasn't in my own rig. I have also been to Las Cruces but its usually early spring and still a little chilly. Either way though you have a good point. I just don't see me doing anything other than black. This is still way out there though, but I enjoy getting opinions. To be honest, Moab is a common trip for me, so I do end up in some heat.

---

Lot of suggestions here, need to make notes of what I need to check on later(action items if you will)...

1. Check steering clearance for lowers.
   1. What is the widest at the axle, narrowest at the chassis that I can achieve?
2. Check vertical clearance for brackets and chassis side lowers
   1. Get pic for comparison
3. Get measurement for distance between Inner-Cs
4. Cut some new mock brackets for upper that are "pretty tall" (4 to 5 inches taller than rev 6)

There are definitely lots of people running black, so don't let me shit all over your color choice if you like it. I just personally wouldn't consider black