Eric
RIP 10/6/2022
Wait a minute. The Trail and Pro cases are both cast aluminum. Same material and dimensions AFAIK. Right?
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Midnight Metal Works T Case.
- Thread starter Billybadass411
- Start date
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
It's funny that people still hold the atlas as some type of holy grail. It's not unbreakable either, and they have put a lot of lame parts in them over the years. Anyone who has had the older 6 spline version apart knows what I mean. Fucking 6 splines, in ~2005? Not 1905 
I don't see this complete case as weaker or stronger than a typical atlas. Unless you want to debate cast vs billet as that could be valid. I doubt very many rec wheelers would have problems with either. Quick Google Google doesn't pull up any lowmax 4:1 failures and they've been around for a while.
The biggest thing they have going for them is an atlas is 19-19 weeks out and being aa they don't typically make their deadlines.
As far as the billet zuk case
that's a tough pill to swallow for a zuk. But what are you're other options for less than 1:1 high, 6.xx low and ~30 lb wieght I don't see this complete case on the same level of Toyota axles or D30s at all. I don't think you're giving it enough credit.
I don't see this complete case as weaker or stronger than a typical atlas. Unless you want to debate cast vs billet as that could be valid. I doubt very many rec wheelers would have problems with either. Quick Google Google doesn't pull up any lowmax 4:1 failures and they've been around for a while.
The biggest thing they have going for them is an atlas is 19-19 weeks out and being aa they don't typically make their deadlines.
As far as the billet zuk case
that's a tough pill to swallow for a zuk. But what are you're other options for less than 1:1 high, 6.xx low and ~30 lb wieght I don't see this complete case on the same level of Toyota axles or D30s at all. I don't think you're giving it enough credit.
Opiebennett
XJ_Ranger
The gear size discussion here is funny. The picture is of the idler gear, that has to change size with the gear ratio. The 4:1 idler gear is bigger than the 2.62:1 factory, yes.
Besides that, I think an aftermarket case d300 has a place in our market - the same as an air-shifted Toyota case rear disconnect does.
I have 2ea STaK 300 cases - one in my 3200lb pro-mod crawler that I’ve had in service for the last 12 years with just a rear output seal change and a few preventative maintenance oil changes, and another that I’m building into my 1967 Jeepster commando -
irate4x4.com
Going from memory - the atlas is like 12.5” input centerline to output centerline, and the d300 (and therefore all aftermarket case variants) is like ~10”.
My drivetrain is offset to the drivers side of the rig about 1.25” in this setup, and with the significantly smaller D300, it barely fits in the OEM frame rails. See pic -
An atlas would require way lower clocking or a funky frame notch or a custom frame to fit all the CJ width frame cars. STaK made custom t-cases with an offset idler gear to fit the early bronco frame rails.
And there is value in being able to buy something with all brand new parts that isn’t coated in gear oil schmutz from 1980 with unknown bearing and seal bore wear, with 2.62:1 or 4:1 gearing options, that fits in your frame rails, that has standard 26 or 32 spline output shafts and therefore tons of yokes available, that has twin stick both end disconnect, that has a relatively common 6 bolt mount pattern, that has one case that can be used for either driver or passenger - depending on your front axle availability.
Maybe not to everyone, but certainly to me.
Besides that, I think an aftermarket case d300 has a place in our market - the same as an air-shifted Toyota case rear disconnect does.
I have 2ea STaK 300 cases - one in my 3200lb pro-mod crawler that I’ve had in service for the last 12 years with just a rear output seal change and a few preventative maintenance oil changes, and another that I’m building into my 1967 Jeepster commando -
Project Glacier Cold Beer - a '67 Jeepster Commando
Sub frame coming along. Ordered 3' of 1"x.188" 4130 tube to make sleeves for the link mounts, which will go through the 1.75 tube. Mocked the sub frame under the rig with ratchet straps to figure on things for a beer or 3. Some chance that a one piece front driveshaft will work. Going to be...
irate4x4.com
Going from memory - the atlas is like 12.5” input centerline to output centerline, and the d300 (and therefore all aftermarket case variants) is like ~10”.
My drivetrain is offset to the drivers side of the rig about 1.25” in this setup, and with the significantly smaller D300, it barely fits in the OEM frame rails. See pic -
An atlas would require way lower clocking or a funky frame notch or a custom frame to fit all the CJ width frame cars. STaK made custom t-cases with an offset idler gear to fit the early bronco frame rails.
And there is value in being able to buy something with all brand new parts that isn’t coated in gear oil schmutz from 1980 with unknown bearing and seal bore wear, with 2.62:1 or 4:1 gearing options, that fits in your frame rails, that has standard 26 or 32 spline output shafts and therefore tons of yokes available, that has twin stick both end disconnect, that has a relatively common 6 bolt mount pattern, that has one case that can be used for either driver or passenger - depending on your front axle availability.
Maybe not to everyone, but certainly to me.
Weasel
Red Skull Member
Ya know I can't seem to find that at the moment. I thought the Pro version had a upgraded case (with other stuff), but might be incorrect on that.
Eric
RIP 10/6/2022
During the video they mention something about a "new" Atlas case but there is no mention to be found on the AA website.
I have seen the talk about gear size being beat to death but doesn’t the idler shaft play a role? The atlas “pro series” uses the same size gears but with a bigger idler shaft and is supposedly much stronger?
What’s the D300 idler shaft size in comparison to the Atlas? Or feel free to mention other non gear size factors that play into strength
What’s the D300 idler shaft size in comparison to the Atlas? Or feel free to mention other non gear size factors that play into strength
You're probably right, I'm being a little harsh here and I should have worded it better comparing it to yota axles and a Dana 30 lol.As far as the billet zuk case
I think this is a great product as a replacement case (and your current 300 has gears and 32 spline). I don't think it should be purchased as complete case and installed with the mentality it's as good or better than an Atlas or other competitors.
I compared it to yotas axles and a Dana 30 because I feel not enough people are honest with their builds from the start and end up throwing money at parts because there are upgrades out there. I don't see how putting one ton drivetrain parts into a rig and expecting less than one ton parts to hold up as well makes sense no matter what upgrades have been done.
Like you stated, why isn't anyone trying to give atlas a run for their money. I'd like to see companies take a different approach and put out a new product that's better than what's already out there, not take 1/2 ton parts and try to make them last with other one ton components when they should have just been replaced from the get go.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
I think that's the debate, why isn't as good as a standard atlas strength wise? All the gears look comparable, 32 spline outputs, and the stronger billet case, is there major difference besides ratio options I'm unaware of? I don't think this is as far off the atlas as the $8500 trail gear Toyota axle vs a crate 9" or D60 for the same price.
Everyone has different theories, priorities, driving style and terrain. I know guys who can break 35 spline chromo axle with a worn out 22re and guys who have ran slightly upgraded Toyota axles for years and years with great success. To me you can get away with about any transfercase you want if you gear the axles low enough and keep the hp and geari9in front of it realistic. Guy I know ran stock cheap nonbling Toyota cases for like 10+ years with 1 tons and 44-49s. Him putting 7.17s in the axles imo was the key as well as not swapping in a big V8 in front of them.
I like big axles with deep gearing under a light low hp drive train. I see other who put V8s in land cruisers and Jeeps with small axles and stock tcases with good luck. Typically older guys who want enough power to cruise the mountains but are generally a little easier on the trail.
The only thing that is hard to justify about this case is the price being close to a 4spd atlas. Some may not care if they're impatient or belive the billet case is better. Personally, I've never been a huge fan off aa products, the quality just isn't usually there.
I wonder if hero could do a mini box for less money? An atlas sized 3 spd hero would be an awesome case if it was in the ballpark price range. Or I'd like to see another well respected company come out with a tcase, someone like arb, dynatrac (probably be $8k though
) currie, ect. I think marlin would have been smart to do this year's ago when people started building the tacomas. Them holding onto that stupid gear drive case is just ridiculous at this point.I wonder how much it would take to get a fresh tcase off the ground would be
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Someone needs to take a 300 that has 4:1 gears and 32 spline outputs and tear it apart and compare to an atlas.
Can someone chime in on the gear cuts that knows more. I swore I read on the old site (can't find it now) that the straight cut of the 300 gears is stronger but they want to constantly push apart from each other where as the atlas cut is not as strong and quieter but the more diagonal cut (like a r&p) let's them engage better in a way that there not trying to force apart as much. I guess if the billet case solves this than no worries but am I correct here or did I not read this somewhere like I think I did.
haha
Can someone chime in on the gear cuts that knows more. I swore I read on the old site (can't find it now) that the straight cut of the 300 gears is stronger but they want to constantly push apart from each other where as the atlas cut is not as strong and quieter but the more diagonal cut (like a r&p) let's them engage better in a way that there not trying to force apart as much. I guess if the billet case solves this than no worries but am I correct here or did I not read this somewhere like I think I did.
haha
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
Like this?
Can someone chime in on the gear cuts that knows more. I swore I read on the old site (can't find it now) that the straight cut of the 300 gears is stronger but they want to constantly push apart from each other where as the atlas cut is not as strong and quieter but the more diagonal cut (like a r&p) let's them engage better in a way that there not trying to force apart as much. I guess if the billet case solves this than no worries but am I correct here or did I not read this somewhere like I think I did.
TTMotorsports
Red Skull Member
I was told by a friend who had a buggy built for top truck challenge running the 54" baja claw tires and a suprecharged LS motor that AA told him to go with a NP205 since the atlas couldn't handle those loads without breaking.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
Out puts are equal at 32 spline and input is dependent on trans, what else is really failing in a tcase on a crawler?
Funny because some will argue the atlas race case is stronger than a 205. Either way, I'd probably be shopping scs over either option for those giant rigs.
vetteboy79
It's bent. #ttb
Someone needs to take a 300 that has 4:1 gears and 32 spline outputs and tear it apart and compare to an atlas.
Can someone chime in on the gear cuts that knows more. I swore I read on the old site (can't find it now) that the straight cut of the 300 gears is stronger but they want to constantly push apart from each other where as the atlas cut is not as strong and quieter but the more diagonal cut (like a r&p) let's them engage better in a way that there not trying to force apart as much. I guess if the billet case solves this than no worries but am I correct here or did I not read this somewhere like I think I did.
Dana 300 gears are not straight cut, they're helical just like Atlas gears. This is my stock set.
As mentioned above, all gears are trying to push away from each other, that doesn't change. In a helical set you get quieter engagement at the expense of adding an axial force component. When designed well, the direction of the teeth is such that the axial force gets mostly canceled out so you're not trying to push the gear out the side of the housing, but it doesn't always work perfectly.
vetteboy79
It's bent. #ttb
If either of you guys are interested, I have a AA 32-spline rear output & housing for the short 300 (note: it is 1.5" longer than the stock short 300, but allows you to run a newer jeep style speedo gear), as well as an input gear to adapt to a TH350. Never going to use either one, just taking up space on my shelf.
Winchested
IH Scout SSII
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Appreciate it, I'm turfing this once it breaks for an engine swap/NV4500, NWF titan and NP205.
I sold the 2 jeep 300s I had with my old scout axles to a gent from Iowa who came up to canader to pick em up a couple weeks ago. He was having a hard time finding a Np241c pass drop sold em both to him for $200. No shifters on them tho.
That is what I’m trying to understand....what you mentioned from your first paragraph....On paper they are similar/the same. If everything is the same on paper and gear ratios are similar then what’s the difference? Supposedly idler shaft plays a role? It sounds like that’s the only difference between the regular atlas and their “pro” atlas which they use for racing.
As for your 2nd statement, I agree 100%
I recently just watched a buddy blow up his toyota case. Only running a 22RE with a 60/14 bolt and 43s. What’s the problem here? The 14 bolt. 5.38 is the lowest you can go. Go on social media and 9/10 when a Toyota case is blown up and the rig is on one tons they are running a 14 bolt.
I’m sure someone has done it but I haven’t seen or heard of a Toyota case blowing up if they run a D60/D70 and are running 6.17-7.17 gears.
Even when guys are running 35s-37s and Toyota axles I have seen people are breaking the t case but they are only running 4.10s in the diff. It’s a balancing act between pinion size and t case strength.
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Bebop
Well-known member
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PM incoming
Weasel
Red Skull Member
The SCS cases are single speed correct?
It's quite a chunk of change to do a fresh sheet case. And I doubt it would be a price point anyone would be interested in. Would be - well my D300 is xyz why should I pay 5k for this case that too expensive.
The cases for the most part are using parts that were developed over 50 years?
It's quite a chunk of change to do a fresh sheet case. And I doubt it would be a price point anyone would be interested in. Would be - well my D300 is xyz why should I pay 5k for this case that too expensive.
The cases for the most part are using parts that were developed over 50 years?
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
Scs is single speed, but has a quick change feature. Good for comp or hard core trail guys as they can adjust their gearing for different places in about 15 Mins iirc. They offer a version with a planitary crawl box in front also. Seems like 1.5/4:1 is common.
I don't think a brand new tcase would be for the guy with an old D300 sitting there. But with all the money in JK, JL and soon Broncos, i dont see why a competing case to the atlas wouldn't do well. 19 week wait time proves that.
It would probably be hard to compete price wise, as aa has been doing the atlas for ever now. I think a 3 spd would be a great option. My buddy has a stak mini box in his TJ he built about 10 years ago, and he loves it. He's got like 2:1 for bombing around or 5.4 for slow crawling. I think most JK/JL types don't want or need an actual 4spd case as they're usually only looking for ~4:1 or maybe a little lower.
I'm not sure if the hero uses all new stuff or not.
Weasel
Red Skull Member
Can't see folks wanting to be stuck in low range all the time with the SCS for trail work. but maybe.
Hero bought out the Stak stuff right? Sure they didn't get a ton but thought there was some things so they didn't have to reinvent the gear from nothing.
Hero bought out the Stak stuff right? Sure they didn't get a ton but thought there was some things so they didn't have to reinvent the gear from nothing.
TRINDU
PBB Orphan
I believe so. They also flat out refused to market the D300 case, or sell the design.
I hope midnight makes them look like a fool with this endeavor.
rfr002
Red Skull Member
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I'm about to start a from scratch build and the problem I see with the SCS case is not with it at all but with nobody making a 4:1 range box. That would pair perfectly with a 1:1 SCS and have a combo strong enough for whatever I will throw at it.
YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
Like I said, there is the option to put a crawl box in front of it. Most people would probably really benefit from a ~1.5:1 high range. Shift the crawl box and you have 4:1. Their website says Gearing from 1.625 underdrive to 1.625 overdrive. Plus they're quick change gears.
Obviously it's not ever going to be for a JL that gets driven to the trail, but they have a place also.
Weasel
Red Skull Member
Oh I see what you mean, yeah that would do it.
They refused because they're smart. Some of the biggest issue here is cost and once you call it a 300 you lose half the market because a lot of guys refuse to pay $3500 for a "Dana 300" no matter what's changed or how shiny it is. Call it a completely different name, make 40 spline outputs standard, give 5-7 different ratio choices and you've got something that people will pay $4500 for and a case I'd say could compete with the atlas.
The company they bought out tried and flopped so why continue it. In fact a few companies tried this out and it went ok, at best. Highly doubt they'll make them look like fools, personally I find the hero or scs to be the best choices on the market.
And how about behemoth? They're producing the same deal and producing a np205 billet case as well. I've never owned products from either company but I think the behemoth case looks much better than the midnight.
SteerAndStuff
Red Skull Member
Thing I don't like about the behemoth is the shift mechanism on the top. I already had to bend my seat frame to clear my dana 300, would be worse with that extra moving linkages in the same vicinity. I'm in for a Midnight Metalworks housing myself.
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YotaAtieToo
Thick skull
I feel like they could have kept producing just the case like Stak did. I could be wrong with, but I don't think Stak offered a ready to run "D300" just the case. It was for guys who had slowly upgraded their D300 and eventually cracked a housing. I think the case was around $1000. So for some it made sense.
MM offering a complete case is interesting. I don't think it would sell well if the atlas's weren't so far back ordered, but who knows. The D300 has kinda made a come back with cone dodger types. Especially with the ~9:1+ in the portal axles, most aren't particularly hard on tcases.
vetteboy79
It's bent. #ttb
Well, STaK had much larger issues than a product that may or may not have been popular. Their support was abysmal and parts availability was crap. The product itself, if you actually got one and figured it out, was actually pretty nice. The company as a whole just never really got off the ground.
I didn't think about that, but yeah, the STaK barely worked in mine. Rotary shifter on top would've been back to the drawing board on a bunch of things.