Fadals are thier own animal and not applicable to real machines.
Meet my new little friend, Haas super mini mill
- Thread starter Bacho
- Start date
Origin just zeros out Z readout. Then you can tell the distance between the top of your standard and Z zero on the top of the part. You can do it with any tool or a indicator. I just found it faster to do with the last tool.
Actually, the probing is way faster, now I'm spoiled and don't want to run my mill at home......
Actually, the probing is way faster, now I'm spoiled and don't want to run my mill at home......
Bacho
Yellow Skull
- Thread starter
- #34
Well, so that is what I was doing. I touch the haimer probe to the bed until it read zero. I pressed “mem” and then back to hand jog. That zeroed the distance to go values. Then I raised the probe and zeroed it on top of the part. The distance to go read 5.5” from the bed. I put that value into the offset, no dice.
I tried creating a tool offset for the probe, no change. Tried doing about every way I could think of.
Once I put a tool in the spindle, I couldn’t get it to read anywhere near zero at the top of the part. What was puzzling to me, It was off by more than a whole numbers.
I referenced setting 63 and 33 (offset and coordinate system) no luck. There is no offset in G52.
I found a couple questions on practical machinist of people running into the same issue, with some of the same values that I had. Most of them were run off being called a newb though without any clear answers.
I'm going through the almost the exact same thing as the OP with my Fadal right now. Fucked around with it for 2+ hours last night and had to finally shut it down before I broke the feed stop button.
I have a 2" tall tool setter. Launch the tool offset utility, set tool setter height to 2" and touch off tools to the setter on the table. Offset get updated in the tool table. Run fixture offset utility. Touch off x, y and t and update offset table. Try to run program. Cutter zero is 2" above workpiece when it should be touching. Manually adjust fixture offset by 2" and re-run program. Cutter now tries to dive 1" below the workpiece. Fuck.
I'm half convinced my post for Fusion is fucked up.
SHARPMACHINE
Web Wheeler
Real machines?
Eric642
Red Skull Member
I like to set the machine's tools off the table. Technically a toolsetter on the table. Some reasons. First, you can leave common tools in the machine and do not have to reset their lengths for every job, If a tool breaks mid-job you can easily reset it without having to touch off the part that may be half done, and lastly the tool is already "fine tuned" with the appropriate wear values so your 1st off should be pretty close.
The work offset. On vertical mills, I like to use the bottom of the part (top of parallels or vise face). Always the same numbers and quicker to switch from job to job. Another bonus if you see a negative Z number in the program you know the the tool is going past the parallels or cutting vise.
The work offset value should be the measurement from the table (or where tools were set) to where your program zero was made.
The work offset. On vertical mills, I like to use the bottom of the part (top of parallels or vise face). Always the same numbers and quicker to switch from job to job. Another bonus if you see a negative Z number in the program you know the the tool is going past the parallels or cutting vise.
The work offset value should be the measurement from the table (or where tools were set) to where your program zero was made.
Pook
Red Skull Member
That's how I do it on our Onsrud wood router. They all seem to work as long as you know how you did it.
That's how I do it on our Onsrud wood router. They all seem to work as long as you know how you did it.
I'm still struggling a bit with the relationship of tool offsets and work offset on the Fadal. I know the Fadala are somewhat their own beasts....
The way I got it to work over the weekend was to delete any z work offset and then set the tools to the workpiece. But that method means you have to reset your tools for every different height workpiece.
I lot of the tutorials I watched and read set the tools off the table and then touched off the workpiece, but I'm clearly missing a step in between there as when I did that, the Z height ended up all over the place and any changes I made to the Z work offset did not have anywhere near the result that I expected. Seems like you have to do some math to set the Z work offset or something...
Maybe probe the table with the haimer, then probe the workpiece and the difference between the two is the offset?
I really like the way LinuxCNC handles it....you touch your tools off to whatever you want. That effectively gives all your tools offsets relative to each other. Then you touch off whatever tool is loaded to the workpiece and it automatically compensates everything with no additional fuckery.
Eric642
Red Skull Member
Are you using a tool setter to set the tools of the table? If so the work offset measurement is from the tool setter to the program zero position.
example:
Set tools off of a 4" tall tool setter.
Bring Haimer to top of the vise (or wherever program zero is) Zero the DRO on the machine.
Move Haimer to the table. Enter the dimension into the work offset Z.
Now you have to take into account the tool setter height. In this example, the tool setter is 4". So add +4. to the work offset.
When the tools are set on a place lower than the program's Z position the work offset will be a positive number.
On the HAAS (not sure on FADAL) there is a setting to automatically accounts for the tool setter length but do not know the number off the top of my head.
Buying a used machine you might want to look it up in case the previous owner was using a different length tool setter than you.
example:
Set tools off of a 4" tall tool setter.
Bring Haimer to top of the vise (or wherever program zero is) Zero the DRO on the machine.
Move Haimer to the table. Enter the dimension into the work offset Z.
Now you have to take into account the tool setter height. In this example, the tool setter is 4". So add +4. to the work offset.
When the tools are set on a place lower than the program's Z position the work offset will be a positive number.
On the HAAS (not sure on FADAL) there is a setting to automatically accounts for the tool setter length but do not know the number off the top of my head.
Buying a used machine you might want to look it up in case the previous owner was using a different length tool setter than you.
Last edited:
The tool setting utility in the Fadal asks for the gauge block height, so that's already incorporated in to the offset number it stores. I use one of these little 2" ones.
Pook
Red Skull Member
On my fadal, I have never had a value other then 0 in the Z work offset. I use the mass modify option to update all the tools to whatever the I am using for my current work Z offset. Just what I was taught by the guys we bought the machine off of.
I set all my tools off a known point like your tool setter which is at 2" off the table. I set up my work piece and using the datum point in my cam, I move my tool #1 which for me is always a 1/4" end mill (I have standard tooling in spots 1-10 above that is usually custom tooling for the job) to that spot. Prior to setting the new tool length I look at my tool offset table, write down the number (based off the 2" tool setter) I then set my new tool length. Look at offset difference for tool one, Gte that number and I use it to mass modify all my other tools to the new work point. If you write down what number you used to modify the tool lengths, you can easily move everything back to the 2" point, prior to setting your next job or use it again if a tool breaks and you need to reset.
Is there better ways to do it? probably, but it's worked for me on the Fadal the last 14 years without an issue.
I set all my tools off a known point like your tool setter which is at 2" off the table. I set up my work piece and using the datum point in my cam, I move my tool #1 which for me is always a 1/4" end mill (I have standard tooling in spots 1-10 above that is usually custom tooling for the job) to that spot. Prior to setting the new tool length I look at my tool offset table, write down the number (based off the 2" tool setter) I then set my new tool length. Look at offset difference for tool one, Gte that number and I use it to mass modify all my other tools to the new work point. If you write down what number you used to modify the tool lengths, you can easily move everything back to the 2" point, prior to setting your next job or use it again if a tool breaks and you need to reset.
Is there better ways to do it? probably, but it's worked for me on the Fadal the last 14 years without an issue.
Eric642
Red Skull Member
If you use the wok offset and not mass modify you do not have to remember the value you moved all the tool settings and you do not have to remember to move everything back the same amount to the next job. Just more chances to forget or typo a number which happens to everyone eventually.
Eric642
Red Skull Member
Edited: I wrote negative number. originaly.
Pook
Red Skull Member
I will have to try some things out in the Fadal. One day i will get a fancier machine with probing and a tool setter.
Sure is nice on our Onsrud ood router.
Sure is nice on our Onsrud ood router.
Eric642
Red Skull Member
So the work shift number should be the height from the table to the program's Z origin position.
I used to use the bottom of the part when programming but now with better programming software I like to use the table and model the vise, parallels, and part. This way the work offset always starts out the same number which would be zero if the tools were set on it.
Eric642
Red Skull Member
I
I used a tool setter similar to the type that bgaidan is using for years, much faster than touching off paper or face cuts.
Then just stuck a dial indicator in the spindle to measure heights.
I used a tool setter similar to the type that bgaidan is using for years, much faster than touching off paper or face cuts.
Then just stuck a dial indicator in the spindle to measure heights.
I think the haimer + the tool setter is going to be the fasted method, once I get an understanding of the relationship to the tool z offset and the fixture z offset. Because whatever I was doing the other day didn't make any fuckn' sense. I'd run Z to zero and it'd be 2" over the workpiece zero. I'd adjust the fixture offset by 2" and then Z0 is an inch below the workpiece.
You should only need to enter the tool block hieght if it's sitting on top of the part.The tool setting utility in the Fadal asks for the gauge block height, so that's already incorporated in to the offset number it stores. I use one of these little 2" ones.
Things that don't have hokey PC based controls. Fadal, Hurco.....
At least they ditched the weldment frames when they got bought out.
Eric642
Red Skull Member
Yes Haimer is much nicer to use was just saying that is wasn't the only method.I think the haimer + the tool setter is going to be the fasted method, once I get an understanding of the relationship to the tool z offset and the fixture z offset. Because whatever I was doing the other day didn't make any fuckn' sense. I'd run Z to zero and it'd be 2" over the workpiece zero. I'd adjust the fixture offset by 2" and then Z0 is an inch below the workpiece.
Sounds like what you did was correct -2.0 from the workoffset should have put you in the right spot if you were 2" too high. hmmm
Bacho
Yellow Skull
- Thread starter
- #53
I think the haimer + the tool setter is going to be the fasted method, once I get an understanding of the relationship to the tool z offset and the fixture z offset. Because whatever I was doing the other day didn't make any fuckn' sense. I'd run Z to zero and it'd be 2" over the workpiece zero. I'd adjust the fixture offset by 2" and then Z0 is an inch below the workpiece.
Sounds like you have exactly the same frustrations I’m running into.
Hopefully I’ll mess with it a little more tomorrow and see if changing the origin makes a difference.
I’m setting everything from a 1-2-3 block on the bed. It makes sense that I shouldn’t need to make an adjustment for the height of that since it’s all gonna be the same.
If you're setting tool height off the bed like a lot of people seem to do, you'd also have to tell it the gauge height....or do any adjustments based of the table+2".
It's been 16 years since I ran one so I'll take your word for it. I actively tried to forget everything I knew about the 88 control.
Eric642
Red Skull Member
Technically the work offset adjustment would be -2.0 from the table measurement. If using a 2" block to set the tool and not adjusting for it in the tools length offset.
Z Work offset distance from where the tools are set to the programs Z0 position.
SHARPMACHINE
Web Wheeler
Interesting. We have many kinds of machines at our shop (haas, belmont, mitsu, etc.). All of them have something hokey about them, but the only vmc better at holding size than the fadal is a 50 taper tree. I am fond of the heavy boxed way machines when it comes to production and holding size.
Bacho
Yellow Skull
- Thread starter
- #58
I think I now understand what the concept here is. All of the tools are set off the bed, or a known distance off the bed. That location becomes the origin. Then the part becomes a positive number offset above that.
So there wouldn’t be a reason to add in the height gauge, unless the part offset might end up below that resulting in a negative offset?
Bacho
Yellow Skull
- Thread starter
- #59
So I followed the method posted above. All tools offset against a block on the bed. I set origin with the probe zero'ed on the block. I measured the height (4.5") compared to the part. While hand jogging my position on the Z still seemed wack. I decided to set the rapid to 5% and hit go, I stopped the machine in movement. I found the Z to be working out perfectly and made a few parts with success. So I guess I do not fully understand the position screen.
SHARPMACHINE
Web Wheeler
The part that is confusing to me if I do not write programs often, or rather easily forgotten = most of the offsets work together.