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Larboc finally starts building a shop.

larboc

Limestone cowboy
Joined
May 19, 2020
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237
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Loc
Da yoop
IBB exclusive to try to keep me motivated, not a repost from the old world.

After years of putting it off I'm finally starting on building a decent shop. After looking at the options on my property for locations I decided on a triangle shaped piece of land, adjacent on one side to my driveway and near my house and existing garage. The limit on the west side is the county road that requires a 33' setback from the centerline and the limit on the northeast side is a wet area that could be considered wetland that I don't want to get into. I'd like the building to wind up as big as possible, right now I'm planning on 40x60 with the long side paralleling the road.
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The location would require/is requiring a lot of fill and was a fairly nice lawn that I kind of hated to tear up but it was time to get started.
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I took the mini-ex and stripped off all the topsoil and grass and put it in a pile out of the way with my tractor. Ended up with about a 30 yard pile of topsoil that I'll use to top the fill grade later.
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And then fired up the 6v71 to fill the dump truck with more sand than it's supposed to carry and started hauling and spreading
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I'm hauling 5 trucks/50+yards at a time then spreading it all out as flat as possible, then driving over every inch of it of it with the samurai to get a start at compaction, then I was walking behind my plate compactor (which really sucks on inclines) till I got smart.
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I've hauled 13 heaping loads of coarse sand in a 10-yard truck and I figure I'll need about 1000 yards. Each 50-yard haul session turns into about a 4" lift between compactions which should be good.
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I've found an amazing amount of scrap metal and pipe during the removal of the topsoil. Always wondered why that section of the yard was so lumpy.
 
Nice work! I made Eric take us by your place a couple weeks back when we were in town, but I didn't want to stop in and bother you. I don't think you were doing any of this then! If you were, I didn't notice.
 
Nice work! I made Eric take us by your place a couple weeks back when we were in town, but I didn't want to stop in and bother you. I don't think you were doing any of this then! If you were, I didn't notice.

the hell? Should have let me know you were in town.
 
the hell? Should have let me know you were in town.

Yeah, I suppose that was $hitty on my part... was kinda an impromptu trip, hadn't been up there in a spell.
Next time you'll have more notice, I'll bring some beer by and take the grand tour of the property.:grinpimp:
 
Got another ~100 yards hauled, spread, and packed yesterday. I've got 26 loads hauled so far and I"m probably averaging 11.5 yards per load in the 10 yard box. Barely looks like I've done anything.
Here's the procedure:
Starting point after the last lift is done:
IMG_20200910_174901651.jpg

Take the dump truck to the pit and fire up the loader
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Terrify a mouse
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Fill dump truck
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Drive to the worksite and dump, repeat 5-6 times.
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Spread the sand by hand
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finish spreading using the deere 4300
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Drag bar grate behind the deere 455 to knock off any high spots

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Fangers to those of you who say green paint doesn't belong on a construction site.
 
Drive the samuri around over every inch a few times to pack it down.
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Hook up the compactor to the 455 and spend the next hour driving around.
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This is what it looked like at the end of the day yesterday after ~ 275 yards and what it looked like before. At the start of this I figured I'd need around 750 yards so I'm making progress but it shure doesn't look like it. It's amazing how much material 10 yards of sand is to move, how heavy it is, and how it disappears when you spread it. Unfortunately the loader sprung a leak in the radiator so I'm filling it with water before every load now and trying to get finished before I need to drain it for the winter and pull the radiator out to fix it or make a new one out of aluminum. We've already hit 32 one night last week so that time of year is coming fast. I really want to get all the fill hauled and the site roughed in before winter so it can all be settling before pouring the slab in the spring.
Now
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Before
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You jeep driving over it really doesn’t do much for compacting. It would be better to use you fully loaded dump truck. That little plate compactor is only good for 3-4” max. It would work better if you would flatten then put the sprinkler out and saturate the sand then compact.

How I treat compactors

compactors I can pick up to put in a pickup 3” depth
gas powered reversible compactor 6”
diesel reversible compactor 8-10”
bomag self propelled 12”-16”

When we backfill garages sand gets put in 6” lifts and hit with a reversible a minimum of three passes in alternating directions.

with what your doing I would try and get a bigger compactor. That is unless you are gonna leave the pad sit for 2-3 freeze thaw cycles to help it settle. You need to add feet of height. A Bomag is almost a requirement. I would hate to see you spend al this money on a nice shop only to have the far corner to settle out on you. Like you most people go cheap on the dirt work and it fucks them in the future.

Me my dad and brother built a 24’x24’ garage over a long weekend up at my brothers house in Hancock. We brought the bomag with us as it was that important.
 
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What're the rental rates on a bomag?


Now I gotta go look up what a bomag is :rolleyes:

No idea what renting one costs. I know my dad rents ours out to other excavation contractors occasionally. It’s a stupid piece of equipment to own but when you need it, you need it ;(

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Props for the KBC Red Ridge on the dash of the Sammy...
 
You jeep driving over it really doesn’t do much for compacting. It would be better to use you fully loaded dump truck. That little plate compactor is only good for 3-4” max. It would work better if you would flatten then put the sprinkler out and saturate the sand then compact.

How I treat compactors

compactors I can pick up to put in a pickup 3” depth
gas powered reversible compactor 6”
diesel reversible compactor 8-10”
bomag self propelled 12”-16”

When we backfill garages sand gets put in 6” lifts and hit with a reversible a minimum of three passes in alternating directions.

with what your doing I would try and get a bigger compactor. That is unless you are gonna leave the pad sit for 2-3 freeze thaw cycles to help it settle. You need to add feet of height. A Bomag is almost a requirement. I would hate to see you spend al this money on a nice shop only to have the far corner to settle out on you. Like you most people go cheap on the dirt work and it fucks them in the future.

Me my dad and brother built a 24’x24’ garage over a long weekend up at my brothers house in Hancock. We brought the bomag with us as it was that important.

So I tried the dump truck idea and it really wasn't working for me. Honestly it seems to loosen the sand up if anything. The tires would shear and displace the sand sideways, then on the next pass I'd try to overlap the tire tracks and it would do the same thing, but a little deeper. Since the site is in a hole, if I start trying to climb much of a slope with the dump truck to get out the drives start wheel hopping and disturb it further. If I had floats for steers and radial drives maybe it would help but these narrow skinny 10r20 bias plies don't float in sand well at all. Even at the pit where I'm loading, on undisturbed sand it will do about the same thing. All the "roads" around the pit have a layer of gravel and rocks on them.

I did a bit of research on how to compact this and it seemed like there were two good options for compacting well graded sand like this, vibratory or rolling. Obviously the bigger the equipment the better but from what I was reading a plate compactor should be good to a 4" lift which is what I'm shooting for with the 5-6 truck loads per lift. It just takes longer than a big vibratory roller would. During spreading with the 4300 pushing forward everything gets driven on by it which is ~5500lbs on turf tires. After the first few passes with it's tires you can tell when you have the lift at about 4" and it starts to set up, any deeper or if it hasn't been driven over the tires will spin. At 4" it sets up pretty nice for the turf tires and is easy to drive around on. Dragging the bar grate knocks off the high spots and then rolling it with the TSL's just makes sure it's consistant, then once the compactor goes over it it gets pretty tight. I've got a piece of 1/4" steel rod I use as a probe/impromptu cone penetrometor to check on it and it seems like it's just about as hard to push it in to my site as the undisturbed soil at the pit after I go over it once with the plate. The second pass with the plate going the other direction doesn't seem to do much.

Regarding moisture content, the sand has been coming out of the pit somewhat damp and seems like about the right moisture content based on what I've read for compacting. There's been a couple times I've had to wet it down (note the orange poly pipe) but this is about what it looks like when I compact it.
IMG_20200914_132307098.jpg
The surface will get a little damper after the plate goes over it, but I over wet it in a couple spots and the plate starts to sink and push material ahead of it. From what I read you don't want it too wet.

This seemed like a fairly good, concise guide for compaction for beginners and is what I have been going by.
https://www.multiquip.com/multiquip...dbook_low_res_0212_DataId_59525_Version_1.pdf
This was an interesting read as well.
https://www.bomag.com/ext_resource/americas/extras/soil.pdf

You're right, I am going to be adding 5' of lift or so in the back corner and I don't want it to settle which is why I'm going this in such time consumingly short lifts. I am going to be sloping and covering everything that's exposed with the organics I scraped off.
Should I keep it blown off so it freezes this winter or let the snow pile on it for the extra weight and moisture as it slowly thaws all winter?
 
next loaded dump truck... back it in (and out... in and out)... use the rear tires to compact.. Yes, it's going to spread, but it will also push.

in my neck of the woods, that lift likely would have been done first with surge...
 
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next loaded dump truck... back it in... use the rear tires to compact.. Yes, it's going to spread, but it will also push.

in my neck of the woods, that lift likely would have been done first with surge...

I do that every dump. I back up until the truck starts to go down hill, dump, and pull away as it finished dumping. I have to lock the axles and leave the bed raised to pull away. As more get's filled closer to level I'll do it as much as I can. I'll experiment a little and takes pics of the effects. I'll get stuck if I try to do it at the bottom, but at the higher spots that are more level with the existing driveway it will be doable, but I'm not sure if it's helping or hurting because of how much it's displacing the sand.
 
I do that every dump. I back up until the truck starts to go down hill, dump, and pull away as it finished dumping. I have to lock the axles and leave the bed raised to pull away. As more get's filled closer to level I'll do it as much as I can. I'll experiment a little and takes pics of the effects. I'll get stuck if I try to do it at the bottom, but at the higher spots that are more level with the existing driveway it will be doable, but I'm not sure if it's helping or hurting because of how much it's displacing the sand.

can you put a berm of surge around the outside of teh build area? To try to keep the sand somewhat contained?

When I built my house, the dirt guy backfilled my garage with dirt, etc... builder made him pull it out and replace it with surge. he said the rock would put less pressure on the block (i.e. spread sideways).

No idea how true that is/was... but after 6 years, I have but one small hairline crack in the concrete... :shrug:
 
can you put a berm of surge around the outside of teh build area? To try to keep the sand somewhat contained?

When I built my house, the dirt guy backfilled my garage with dirt, etc... builder made him pull it out and replace it with surge. he said the rock would put less pressure on the block (i.e. spread sideways).

No idea how true that is/was... but after 6 years, I have but one small hairline crack in the concrete... :shrug:

"surge" to me means switched flooding for irrigation?

I'm going to slope the sand and then either put the topsoil or crusher run minerock over it all to stabilize it. That's all something I can do once the weather gets colder. I could be as little as a week away from freezing temps that require me to drain the loader so I'm trying to get as much sand moved and packed as fast as possible.

You all got me nervous so I spent some time and I did some tests tonight with a drop weight and axle shaft. The ~40# weight dropped from 12" on to a 1.25" OD steel rod penetrated 10-12" into the compacted sand at my fill site depending on where I set it. I then took it over to the borrow pit and got virtually the same results. When I did it into a freshly dumped pile it went in 24"+
I really think I'm getting good compaction even though it's slow. I did back the dump truck onto the site as far as I could and went back and forth a bunch until I eventually got stuck and had to dump to get out. I couldn't really tell it was doing much but I kept doing it with each load and will continue over the whole site as I get it high/level enough to not bury the truck.
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The sand would rise up pretty high in between the duals and on each side. I took a shovel and averaged it out across the tracks and it seemed to average about as high as it was before.
 
surge - basically "large" stone...

Surge_Grey_Stone-3.png
 
surge - basically "large" stone...

Surge_Grey_Stone-3.png

That's what we'd call "pit run mine rock" here. Probably not a great choice to use with sand directly as the sand will wash through it over time. Fabric would help, for awhile.
 
I put a 275 gallon tank of water in the back of my truck and spent 2 hours driving around packing the areas i can't get the dump on yet. Only got stuck once
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I can't tell much of a difference but I'm sure it didn't hurt, I'll keep doing it instead of the samurai
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weight in the truck doesn't matter as much as tire pressure. same psi.. same ground pressure. if the dump truck digs holes then any crack a concrete pad will sink right?. sand? i can see contained sand like to fill a garage that already has a footer and stem wall.

sand, near wetland area, over organic material, getting stuck/ sinking in the grass next to the fill area. i'm just the metal guy on the sites i go to, but thats all a no go around where i'm at. around here all organic would be pushed off and filled with large 1.5" crush rock in steps and real deal/ bomag compacted.
 
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That's what we'd call "pit run mine rock" here. Probably not a great choice to use with sand directly as the sand will wash through it over time. Fabric would help, for awhile.

true - it can wash through.

Dumb question... Why use sand for fill?
 
weight in the truck doesn't matter as much as tire pressure. same psi.. same ground pressure. if the dump truck digs holes then any crack a concrete pad will sink right?. sand? i can see contained sand like to fill a garage that already has a footer and stem wall.

sand, near wetland area, over organic material, getting stuck/ sinking in the grass next to the fill area. i'm just the metal guy on the sites i go to, but thats all a no go around where i'm at. around here all organic would be pushed off and filled with large 1.5" crush rock in steps and real deal/ bomag compacted.

I didn't really get good pictures of it, but I scraped all the organics off of where I'm building and piled them up at the bottom of the site. There was a 4-16" layer of topsoil and construction waste (pipe, appliances, bricks, 2x4's etc.) that I removed and got down to the clean sandy hardpan. It's a bit of a grey area if you're supposed to disturb topsoil and roots before placing fill near a wetland so I did my best to make it look like it didn't happen and filled in the removed area with sand up to the level of the surrounding topsoil and slightly onto the grass. When I got stuck I had backed too far away from the fill and buried it in that layer. The swamp/wetland area was a borrow pit made by the builder of the house to get sand for the rest of the site and then he set up culverts to it to get it water moving through it for a water feature and drainage of the rest of the property. So it's not like it's completely bottomless loon shit, it's 16" of bottomless loon shit.

I will likely be spacing the building farther away from that northeast corner than I had originally planned just to be safe. I'm going to build it up and fill it in like I it's getting a slab on it but it's more likely that I'll stay 8' of build able area away from the edge and build a lean to on it after a few years.

After another 34 yard haul, spread, roll with 10,000 lb water truck on bald treadwrights, 2 plate compactor passes last night it seems like it should be firmer but it's pretty hard to tell just looking at the surface. After another 100 yards or so I should be able to get the dump truck on most of the site as I build up. I can just now consistently get the loaded dump truck (50,000lbs) on the first 20' of the south edge without constantly getting stuck and it does seem to be firming up in that area after I level out the ruts and run the plate across it and then put the dump truck on it again. I'm doing passes straight, and then crisscross. When doing my axleshaft pound test it's still about the same as the undisturbed soil where I'm digging so it may just all be in my head.

I've called a few places and so far nobody has a Bomag available around here for the rest of the year, everything's booked till next summer. I think that at this point I'd be better off getting it all hauled and packed as good as I can with the 10k truck, 50k truck, and plate in small lifts now and letting it set over winter rather than trying to find a bomag in the spring and miss out on the 9 months of settling and temperature swings. Hands down a bomag would be way faster but if I stick to 4" lifts and let it set all winter I can't see what the difference in final compaction would be. Lots of garages and houses are built around here like this. The sand I'm using is what they use as base for class A road beds around here (their pit is about 1500ft from mine), then they top it with rock before paving and they cover the slopes with topsoil.

The biggest thing to watch for around here that will cause damage to a slab is building on clay or other moisture retaining material that heaves when it freezes and that will pulverize a slab. Settling on poorly compacted fill is of course a cause for concern but to be honest I've seen garages built on sand on similar fill sites with a lot less attention paid to compaction until the final 12" or so and they never had any serious issues.

One variable I haven't decided on yet is to do a floating slab or dig down and put in footers. I'm compacting as good as I can everywhere for now, so that doesn't really affect what I'm doing now, but something I'm going to have to consider.
 
true - it can wash through.

Dumb question... Why use sand for fill?

Well graded angular sand like this makes for good fill because it drains well to prevent frost heaving, doesn't settle much, and the even distribution of grain sizes help lock it together. It's about the best natural fill material you can get around here since most of the gravel that was on top of it has been stripped and used long ago.

It's nothing like beach sand which would be garbage to build on because it's smooth and generally has only one size of grain so it slips around a lot.
 
interesting, never really thought about sand being different, i'm in the islands of WA and i suppose all the sadn around here is the beach variety. and frost heave really isn't a factor. sound s like you have a good plan.

i like seeing the shop builds and will be following along.:beer:
 
i know working around 'wetlands' can suck.

funny story;
a buddy and dirt work contractor had half his property probably 3 acres in wetlands... he filled it all in then 'planted' stumps and let the brush grow for a year before inspection and got it all signed off as buildable land. its a little obvious that the wetlands end right at his propertty line but that one impressed me, couldn't believe he pulled it off. especially seeing it before he started filling.
 
No idea what renting one costs. I know my dad rents ours out to other excavation contractors occasionally. It’s a stupid piece of equipment to own but when you need it, you need it ;(

filedata/fetch?id=131749&d=1600095629

This is in the ballpark of being affordable, but would it really be a significant improvement over what I'm doing or save any time. Seems like the wrong tool for the job? $900 a week.
https://catalog.mrmqt.com/product/ca...-asphalt/53279

I bugged the local contractor re-doing the highway and their Bomag style Cat roller is a rental, is busy, has a significant motor problem, and they can't rent it out.

Edit: What about this guy? I can't tell if it vibrates or not. https://wausau.craigslist.org/grd/d/pittsville-compactor/7181300283.html
 
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