KoH 2021 Chit Chat

[SLOWPOKE693]

It's a sensitive topic but definitely one that needs to be looked at especially if it nets safety improvements. Does anyone know if Ultra4 themselves carry out an in-depth investigation?

The problem with Ultra 4 doing an investigation is what happens in the end? They come up with a new safety rule that protects drivers/co-drivers better but then has to ban 1/4 of the cars because they all have X, and X is the known problem. Then what?

It's a catch 22 in my opinion.

 

[Donk]

The problem with Ultra 4 doing an investigation is what happens in the end? They come up with a new safety rule that protects drivers/co-drivers better but then has to ban 1/4 of the cars because they all have X, and X is the known problem. Then what?

It's a catch 22 in my opinion.

I suppose it depends on the results?

If there was a failure of safety equipment that should have otherwise held up then yeah there should be a mandatory inspection or replacement notice to anyone else using the same kit, it'd be up to the teams to go after the equipment manufacturer then.

If it was a result of a mechanical failure due to a design flaw/lack of maintenance then that's on the team and Ultra4 could issue an advisory to other racers for information purposes to let them see if they have any matching issues.
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If it's the result of a structural failure due to the minimum safety rules being insufficient then that's where they're going to struggle.

Or it could be none of the above and they simply had a random rock catch them out and everything behaved as well as could be reasonably expected given the circumstances of the crash.

Motorsport is known to be inherently dangerous after all and as long as all reasonable risk mitigation was in place then it's just a stark reminder of the dangers of the sport.

 

[Wilson]

I crew, half assed, a BB dirt mod. I've seen circle track guys stop, but it would have to be an exceptionally bad wreck for it to happen. It's not common. If a driver does go to another's aid, it's usually because the other guy is either on fire, or the driver going to help was involved in the wreck himself.

As a side note, and I wanted to ask here instead of the donation thread, does anyone know what happened in the crash? I read the car was upside down in a high speed section of track, but did the car hit a rock with the bottom of the car as it was flipping or coming down from a flip? L Vertebrae fractures, again coming from a circle track background, are usually from a severe impact to the bottom of the car where the spine gets compressed, like if the car landed hard flat on a rock or if the suspension had been ripped off and the frame itself hit the ground. Seen Sprint Car guys suffer those kinds of injuries in a flip when the car lands hard on the wheels and the chassis slams into the track. There's no absorption on the bottom of the car.

I also read possibly something to do with a suspension seat? That would also make sense since there's a limited amount of travel and if the seat bottom extremely hard I could see it causing similar injuries.

Not trying to be morbid or anything. The more info people have on an accident the better they can build safety into the cars. It clearly did it's job because they're alive, but there's always room for improvement.

maybe a G-out that kicked the car into a flip? Some of the earlier ifs cars could plow or dig the nose on a hard G-out.

*edit, this would have been his newer trout built car. The old one was a single seater.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

It had to be something like you guys mentioned considering the co-drivers injuries. I'd be curious to find out what exactly happened and why only the co-driver sustained those kinds of injuries. Was it a difference in safety gear, seat ect that factored into it or was it just an unlucky hit to the passenger side?

 

[CDA 455 II]

It had to be something like you guys mentioned considering the co-drivers injuries.

I'd be curious to find out what exactly happened and why only the co-driver sustained those kinds of injuries.

Was it a difference in safety gear, seat ect that factored into it or was it just an unlucky hit to the passenger side?

That is the summation of my earlier question.

 

[Wilson]

It had to be something like you guys mentioned considering the co-drivers injuries. I'd be curious to find out what exactly happened and why only the co-driver sustained those kinds of injuries. Was it a difference in safety gear, seat ect that factored into it or was it just an unlucky hit to the passenger side?

Cannot rule out the Wayes factor. He has fought a bear...

 

[Weasel]

I wonder about loose belts in combo with suspension seat, pure speculation however.

By buddy that front flipped his 6100 truck always said he like to run his shoulder belts loose and I'm pretty sure that's why he dislocated his shoulder, said it was some dumb reason why they did it in roundy-round racing. I've ran acrossed a few people of that mind set. You could see several folks that hopped back into rigs and it was rolling before there was any chance of them getting betls on. Hell one team co-driver wasn't wearing their helmet as they rolled past the camera so who knows.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I've never heard of that in circle track racing in all the years I was involved with it. I was always taught that if you can move and are not at least slightly uncomfortable, they are not tight enough.

If you wear a head/neck restraint that relies on the shoulder belts to keep it in place like a HANS device does, running the belts loose makes for a miserable day of that thing moving all over the place on your shoulders and pretty much cancels out its intended usefulness in a crash. Anyone with half a brain that races now a days has their belts tight.

 

[Provience]

and the codriver is expecting to be in/around/move around the car more than the driver, i could see loose belts being a factor.

but again, maybe/not.

 

[Weasel]

I've never heard of that in circle track racing in all the years I was involved with it. I was always taught that if you can move and are not at least slightly uncomfortable, they are not tight enough.

If you wear a head/neck restraint that relies on the shoulder belts to keep it in place like a HANS device does, running the belts loose makes for a miserable day of that thing moving all over the place on your shoulders and pretty much cancels out its intended usefulness in a crash. Anyone with half a brain that races now a days has their belts tight.

I don't round race so can't say. Doesn't make any sense to me but people can talk all kinds of weird things into making sense. Might have just been his thing.

 

[tribal4krawler]

Im not sure if James was the planned codriver for Wayes, but I could easily see if he wasn’t and he hopped in the morning of the race and the belts were set up for somebody a different build/size and he just adjusted them as best as he could and called it good (and it wasn’t). I know this has come back to bite quite a few codrivers before. At the end of the day though, Offroad racing has a crazy way of selectively hurting only the driver or the codriver. John Shaefers normal codawg hurt his back in qualifying while John had no problem handling the jump. I don’t know why Offroad racing keeps getting compared to dirt track, it’s nowhere even close to the same thing.

 

[Tech Tim]

I was told They wrecked at the same place the TT did over the weekend, guess there is a big rock on the other side of a rise, easy to get caught by surprise?

Supposedly there is video of the TT crash, haven't found it yet.

 

[DesertCJ]

Fucking Dave is running so many classes and races, it's off the chain. That race has come a long ways, and I can only imagine how beat up the desert will be by next saturday.

Just got back yesterday. The desert that I saw was fine but holy hell there's a web of roads out there now. The trails are really messed up too. Chocolate Thunder is thrashed. The right line around the rock is insane now with huge holes that swallow 42s. Bender alley is as tore up as I can remember. Outer limits took a beating but whatever. Has side by side axles and skids scattered everywhere! Sledgehammer from the plaque rock up to the mailbox is as bad or worse than Bender Alley. I was scraping tube on a 48" wide chassis on full width axles on 42s. I'm sure they'll get stacked up again soon enough though...

 

[Donk]

I was told They wrecked at the same place the TT did over the weekend, guess there is a big rock on the other side of a rise, easy to get caught by surprise?

Supposedly there is video of the TT crash, haven't found it yet.

Was that Weasel 's mate?

 

[Sandy Johnson]

i don't at all understand why they would have kept tension on that winch with a car coming up right there. WTF is the recovery crew thinking? I get that they've got a lot of shit going on and such, but fuck "here comes somebody, let's unload the winch for safety and see what happens."

Just catching up. Half of the crew on that trail were my friends. They were not running the winch, it was Levi Shirley's line and his winch.

I guess that section of sledge became a shit show for everyone and the anchor point that everyone needed was right on the race line, so for each racer that came through, the crew had to setup an anchor point, have the racer winch through, then quickly tear it down so they wouldn't destroy the strap, then set it back again for the next racer(you can see my buddy pulling the strap out of the way in one of the videos).

 

[Weasel]

Just catching up. Half of the crew on that trail were my friends. They were not running the winch, it was Levi Shirley's line and his winch.

I guess that section of sledge became a shit show for everyone and the anchor point that everyone needed was right on the race line, so for each racer that came through, the crew had to setup an anchor point, have the racer winch through, then quickly tear it down so they wouldn't destroy the strap, then set it back again for the next racer(you can see my buddy pulling the strap out of the way in one of the videos).

Well then as usual that's why lazy-boy racing sucks. I was wrong then.

I still don't know why a bunch of rock crawlers could not have driven through that. Good job Randy.

 

[Donk]

I still don't know why a bunch of rock crawlers could not have driven through that.

IFS

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Well then as usual that's why lazy-boy racing sucks. I was wrong then.

I still don't know why a bunch of rock crawlers could not have driven through that. Good job Randy.

Every year they go up sledge it's always a mess. Drivers are tired by the time they get there and a couple small mistakes with a ton of horsepower can turn into a huge cluster fawk in no time. I heard a lot of drivers were saying sledge was way worse than dead blow. I also heard there was some drama with Miller in that section that turned him into a very high profile trail tampon with lots of fast guys behind him. The recovery crew couldn't winch him out of the way until his mechanical got fixed, none of the people I know wrenched on his car, and that's all I'm gonna say about that.

 

[CDA 455 II]

IFS

Ooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

 

[CDA 455 II]

Every year they go up sledge it's always a mess. Drivers are tired by the time they get there and a couple small mistakes with a ton of horsepower can turn into a huge cluster fawk in no time. I heard a lot of drivers were saying sledge was way worse than dead blow. I also heard there was some drama with Miller in that section that turned him into a very high profile trail tampon with lots of fast guys behind him. The recovery crew couldn't winch him out of the way until his mechanical got fixed, none of the people I know wrenched on his car, and that's all I'm gonna say about that.

 

[Weasel]

I hope Dave throw in more rock/boulder trails. This I can't crawl cause I set my car up to only go fast is bull.

I get being tired but having your co driver out spotting, in low range, and crawling along seem to be faster then sitting. Always keep moving and progressing however slowly.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Precisely

 

[Sandy Johnson]

I hope Dave throw in more rock/boulder trails. This I can't crawl cause I set my car up to only go fast is bull.

I get being tired but having your co driver out spotting, in low range, and crawling along seem to be faster then sitting. Always keep moving and progressing however slowly.

Other than turkey claw(which isn't that hard), I think he sent them through every well know rock trail there was. He even made them go UP jack and sledge, which as we have seen, kicks everyone's ass. I guess if he wanted to turn the screws even harder, he could have them go up dead blow next time?

 

[Weasel]

So many trails have road bypass burned down the side. Sledge was the only one that didn't, right into a choke point. Up deadblow might be interesting, I don't know going down didn't seem that bad, it was just dropping off ledges. Like up Spooners was super cool when we ran it years ago but everyone runs around the rocks now.

Eh still was hard for 90% of the entires.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

So many trails have road bypass burned down the side. Sledge was the only one that didn't, right into a choke point. Up deadblow might be interesting, I don't know going down didn't seem that bad, it was just dropping off ledges. Like up Spooners was super cool when we ran it years ago but everyone runs around the rocks now.

Eh still was hard for 90% of the entires.

I think it would be great if they could tape off/block off the bypasses somehow. Especially spooners and highway 19 and 20. Would be hard to keep people honest, but maybe at least make an effort, otherwise racers are always going to find a fast line that bypasses things. We have a saying in downhill mountain bike racing "If it's not taped, it gets raped"

 

[CDA 455 II]

So many trails have road bypass burned down the side. Sledge was the only one that didn't, right into a choke point. Up deadblow might be interesting, I don't know going down didn't seem that bad, it was just dropping off ledges. Like up Spooners was super cool when we ran it years ago but everyone runs around the rocks now.

Eh still was hard for 90% of the entires.

Yeah; and didn't 70+% overall DNF?

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Yeah; and didn't 70+% overall DNF?

I think it was something like 35 out of 80 finished this year. Dave has to keep making it hard so he can keep calling it "The Hardest 1 day Off Road Race In The World"

 

[desertPOS]

I didn't read all 82 pages of this, but just caught up on the last few. I've got some video from our day working recovery on Sledge on my instagram @toyota4611 - if there are any questions about what happened in there on race day I'll do my best to answer them. Almost everyone coming through there was unable to do so without winching, so it turned into a pile-up a couple times, and we did everything we could to get people through and keep things moving.

I will say this though, in terms of Slawson's mirror hanging up on and breaking the winch line - that's just racing and I would do the same if I was in his seat. We hooked up to the car behind him at that point and they were winching, but Randy took a different line than most and ended up driving through it unassisted, which most people for the day can't say. Many racers got through that section on the strap, and had driver's side tires up on the canyon wall as they went through...

 

[Provience]

I didn't read all 82 pages of this, but just caught up on the last few. I've got some video from our day working recovery on Sledge on my instagram @toyota4611 - if there are any questions about what happened in there on race day I'll do my best to answer them. Almost everyone coming through there was unable to do so without winching, so it turned into a pile-up a couple times, and we did everything we could to get people through and keep things moving.

I will say this though, in terms of Slawson's mirror hanging up on and breaking the winch line - that's just racing and I would do the same if I was in his seat. We hooked up to the car behind him at that point and they were winching, but Randy took a different line than most and ended up driving through it unassisted, which most people for the day can't say. Many racers got through that section on the strap, and had driver's side tires up on the canyon wall as they went through...

wait, you were there and DIDN"T race?!?!? shit, i figured you were out of town or out of the state when i didn't see you racing.

from what it sounds like, whatever miller was eluding to on his post-race interview about some unsportsman whatever was just typical complaining about nonsense then? sounds like it wasn't enough to stick out in your head as mentionable

also, what kind of mechanical issue would cause the recovery crew to not winch somebody out? seems like "oh hey, your shits broke" would be the all clear to hook a line and drag it away

 

[desertPOS]

wait, you were there and DIDN"T race?!?!? shit, i figured you were out of town or out of the state when i didn't see you racing.

from what it sounds like, whatever miller was eluding to on his post-race interview about some unsportsman whatever was just typical complaining about nonsense then? sounds like it wasn't enough to stick out in your head as mentionable

also, what kind of mechanical issue would cause the recovery crew to not winch somebody out? seems like "oh hey, your shits broke" would be the all clear to hook a line and drag it away

I haven't raced since 2017, unfortunately, but we were out there to help my buddy Kevin Jones racing his Legends 518 car on EMC day. Then like every year, even when I was racing, we were out there volunteering. Last year we worked recovery crew on Full of Hate, and the year before we worked recovery on Cougar Buttes for EMC and KOH. I'm always out there in some capacity And who knows, maybe I'll race again...

What did Miller elude to? I didn't see that interview... When he came through our spot on Sledge though, he blew his rear driveshaft right after the plaque rock, and it was their decision to pull the shaft, since winching them had the shaft spinning around hitting everything on the chassis and then started to get hung up in the rocks. Once his co-driver was under the rig pulling the shaft, it's not like we can just hook up to them and start winching them through, especially with a person under the rig... Is there a discrepency from Miller in there, or from other drivers?