Improving bumper pull towing

[Tinstar]

I got away from the wheeling world and into road racing motorcycles. I don't have any decent interior pics on my phone, but trust me - first thing I did was push back all the heavy cargo (bikes, rolling tool cart, etc) as far back as I possibly could. PERSONALLY...I think Forest River fucked up axle placement on this chassis. I think they should have been about 12" more forward than they are. I make it a point to try and keep the gray and black tanks as empty as possible as they sit forward. Fresh water tank is kinda a moot point as it's directly over the axles.

This setup pic is before I got the shocker hitch, with the yellow sumo springs installed. Like I said before - tows great, handles great, and 1 finger driving with the cruise set at 80 all day. It just beats you to fucking death.

That trailer looks like it was made for a dually with the axles so far back and the high tongue weight you listed. Maybe you are lacking spring rate.

 

[Otto M@n]

I find this statement very confusing.

what wheelbase was your friends duramax? If he had a CCLB, I wouldn't rule out wheelbase making a difference in ride quality.

second the ask for details on the specific WD hitch specs on each vehicle.

Both use Equilizer E4 hitches on our setups and both trucks are CCSB's.

 

[Derp]

That trailer looks like it was made for a dually with the axles so far back and the high tongue weight you listed. Maybe you are lacking spring rate.

That also looks like it would have a shit ton of tongue weight unless the back section were loaded to capacity.

Wait, didn't the OP say things pulled fine when he tried towing it with non-Dodge trucks? Seems like a pretty simple obvious solution that no one wants to address...

 

[Otto M@n]

That also looks like it would have a shit ton of tongue weight unless the back section were loaded to capacity.

Wait, didn't the OP say things pulled fine when he tried towing it with non-Dodge trucks? Seems like a pretty simple obvious solution that no one wants to address...

Yes. The solution is you find me a replacement truck and cover the cost for everything associated with getting a new truck out of your own pocket

 

[YotaAtieToo]

That trailer looks like it was made for a dually with the axles so far back and the high tongue weight you listed. Maybe you are lacking spring rate.

It looks odd for a travel trailer/toy hauer, but it's not that crazy for any other type of trailer.

I think the WD hitch being so tight is causing things to be transferred to the Truck that normally wouldn't be.

Now that I think about it, how the fuck does the air ride hitch work with a WD hitch?

 

[Otto M@n]

It looks odd for a travel trailer/toy hauer, but it's not that crazy for any other type of trailer.

I think the WD hitch being so tight is causing things to be transferred to the Truck that normally wouldn't be.

Now that I think about it, how the fuck does the air ride hitch work with a WD hitch?

You tube link is in one of my previous replies...though, I find it extremely interesting that Bob (talking in the video) specifically mentions the Equilizer hitch transferring all the road bumps from the trailer wheels and causing a harsh ride in the tow vehicle.

As the WD bars get weighted, the head of the hitch pivots on the pivot bolt, and loads the air bag. Pretty neat setup to be honest.

 

[pennsylvaniaboy]

For the buggy on the trailer the timbrens have done well. With the big camper, I appreciate the WD hitch. I have an excursion with f250 springs.. I am tempted to try the felling wedge trick for een less squat.

 

[Tinstar]

Otto M@n, I'm not berating you at all.


I am just thinking out loud about those type problems in general. I've towed trailers since I could drive and have had WD hitches. I have always thought of the WD hitch as a band aid to the real problem of the truck and trailer not correctly matching for one reason or another. All the new bumper pull "wonder hitch 5000's" out there only reinforces that thinking.

Seems 5th wheel and GN trailers rarely have problems other than bucking if the load isn't distributed properly.

Any chance of throwing that trailer onto a dually and seeing how it pulls? I pulled one of my buddy's RV's that was bumper pull and having sway problems. My dually said nope at 55 mph and started swaying. I believe that trailer design had too high of a polar moment of inertia. The trailer axles were in the middle and it had minimal tongue weight. He wound up selling it.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Op, are you a fab guy? Would you be opposed to building a gooseneck? It might hurt resale, but if you want to keep it for a long time, it won't matter.

 

[CarterKraft]

Honestly it's really hard to narrow it down, because it rides like such shit it's overwhelming

It's not porpoising, but if I had to describe it, it would be more like bucking than bouncing. I believe all of the harshness of the ride quality is coming from the trailer wheels and since the WD bars are setup tight, it directly pushes it into the cab of the truck, hence why I found the shocker hitch to be a definite increase of ride quality.

Ride quality improved overall with the addition of the Sumo Springs on the rear, especially over rough/shitty parts on the highway. I believe the rear suspension didn't have enough spring to compensate for the heavy tongue weight. I also noticed an increase in stabliity of the truck after adding them, less chassis roll on tight highway onramps/exits.

When we pulled my trailer with my buddies 2018 Duramax 3500 SRW, his bars were not set very tight at all (you can almost slide the bars on the hooks without having to re-run the jack up after connecting). I did notice my trailer (shorter and a lower GVWR than his toy hauler) caused his truck to ride on his over load springs hooked up - and his toy hauler does not. With his bars being looser than mine, can confirm that his truck did ride a hell of a lot smoother than mine.

Homer Simpson logic says to not run a WD hitch...but doesn't really do anything to help prevent trailer sway.

If you need away control without WD a pivot point projection hitch is the best there is.

Hensley Arrow or ProPride 3P are the choices but they're gonna ding you for almost $3k, I won't say that isn't crazy expensive.

But if you want to drive a 16 hour straight through and not have a worry in the world they will do it.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

So enlighten me. I'm asking genuinely, as I have no experience with anything but a ball or pintle.

Why can everyone with a 13k+ lb skid steer or excavator pull them around fine on an equipment trailer, but anything with a shitter needs a bunch of fancy bullshit on the hitch?

I realize that one factor may be using a truck more near its capacity, like a half ton. But as mentioned zibe hauled almost 12k on a similar length trailer for 300 miles with zero issues.

The other I get is hauling long ass trips vs an hour or 2. But again, I've pulled long bumper pulls with too much tongue wieght for 6-8 hours.

 

[RPS1030]

So enlighten me. I'm asking genuinely, as I have no experience with anything but a ball or pintle.

Why can everyone with a 13k+ lb skid steer or excavator pull them around fine on an equipment trailer, but anything with a shitter needs a bunch of fancy bullshit on the hitch?

I realize that one factor may be using a truck more near its capacity, like a half ton. But as mentioned zibe hauled almost 12k on a similar length trailer for 300 miles with zero issues.

The other I get is hauling long ass trips vs an hour or 2. But again, I've pulled long bumper pulls with too much tongue wieght for 6-8 hours.

At the limit as you said (truck and trailer components) and more surface area.

Plus limited control of tongue weight. Everything is fixed and tanks are usually in poor spots or just about the axles.

Most people also way underestimate how much the junk they packed weighs.

 

[aczlan]

At the limit as you said (truck and trailer components) and more surface area.

Plus limited control of tongue weight. Everything is fixed and tanks are usually in poor spots or just about the axles.

Most people also way underestimate how much the junk they packed weighs.

I suspect that center of gravity is also higher on a travel trailer vs a equipment trailer with a skid steer on it (especially if it's not a deck over trailer).

Aaron Z

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I've hauled other shit besides skid steers too. I used to work for a Walnut hiller and dryer manufacturer. They built 8' x 12' x 10" dryer bins. We'd lay them down so they were 10' tall and put 2 on a trailer. Expanded metal floors, so not a complete wind drag, but close. We used to say it was like hauling sails, not terribly heavy, but wind sucked.

Other components would get tetris'd onto the trailer, and you better fill the deck. Sometimes it just worked out that it had a ton of tongue weight and there was nothing you could do about it. We had a 22' gooseneck and an old heavy 22' home made bumper pull with the axles set way back. It would squat a 250 empty. I had them loaded enough to get 7-9 mpg a few times on flat open highway at 60 mph. Had a 97 single cab F350, 03 single cab F350, 08 CCLB F350, 10 CCSB F250 and 12 CCLB F250 with bags all single wheel, I hauled them with, so it wasn't the truck.

I'm just having a hard time seeing how an 8k toy hauler is sooooo much worse, but like I said, my toy hauler, and fufu hitch experience is nill.

 

[Otto M@n]

So enlighten me. I'm asking genuinely, as I have no experience with anything but a ball or pintle.

Why can everyone with a 13k+ lb skid steer or excavator pull them around fine on an equipment trailer, but anything with a shitter needs a bunch of fancy bullshit on the hitch?

I realize that one factor may be using a truck more near its capacity, like a half ton. But as mentioned zibe hauled almost 12k on a similar length trailer for 300 miles with zero issues.

The other I get is hauling long ass trips vs an hour or 2. But again, I've pulled long bumper pulls with too much tongue wieght for 6-8 hours.

Probably because you're trying to compare a completely empty equipment trailer that has no limiting factors (water tank locations, RV interior design, and where the garage space is allocated within said floor plan) and you are free to place the equipment exactly where you want to to achieve the correct tongue weight/load out.

 

[arse_sidewards]

So enlighten me. I'm asking genuinely, as I have no experience with anything but a ball or pintle.

Why can everyone with a 13k+ lb skid steer or excavator pull them around fine on an equipment trailer, but anything with a shitter needs a bunch of fancy bullshit on the hitch?

I realize that one factor may be using a truck more near its capacity, like a half ton. But as mentioned zibe hauled almost 12k on a similar length trailer for 300 miles with zero issues.

The other I get is hauling long ass trips vs an hour or 2. But again, I've pulled long bumper pulls with too much tongue wieght for 6-8 hours.

By the time you are hauling a 10k piece of equipment you've done enough sketchy shit that you know what's fine and what's pushing the limits of what you can get away with.

99% of travel trailer buyers except maybe a landscape trailer with some wood on it to relate their experience to.

Probably because you're trying to compare a completely empty equipment trailer that has no limiting factors (water tank locations, RV interior design, and where the garage space is allocated within said floor plan) and you are free to place the equipment exactly where you want to to achieve the correct tongue weight/load out.

Clearly somebody has never had to play the "my tow rig is good to X, my trailer axles/tires are good to Y, where do I put the weight so I don't break shit" game. That game usually ends with way little or way too much tongue weight and going 55 in the slow lane.

 

[Wades_76_cj7]

I am dealing with some trailer sway on my TH as well. Mine came with a WD hitch but it's the kind with the L bars and chains to adjust tension. I had an issue with the damn catches that hold the bars into the hitch on the truck side and the bars dropped out a couple times and dragged on the highway causing the bend of the L to wear quite a bit. I ordered a new bar and guessed on the capacity on the hitch bars and think I got 1200# bar when I should have bought a 1k bar. Last time I towed with it I was getting a lot of sway that I didn't have prior trips. I lowered the new bar 1 link in the chain and it helped but I need to order another 1200# bar so they are balanced again.

I am running a '15 CCSB Ram and have towed this trailer for a few years and it was fine up until I changed out that load bar. Last summer I added air lift 5k bags to it as well. I have not pulled the camper without the load bars after the air bag install. From my experience with no load bars puling the camper home with my 04 Dodge it was spooky as well. The front axle was damn light and I have not pulled it without the WD again.

My truck also has 106k on the clock and factory shocks so I am sure that is playing into my issue as well. I am running stock size tires,. so the only mods to the suspension are the air bags.

I need to figure out a better way to control air pressure on the bags. Like mentioned above the volume is so small on them it's hard to keep them even pressure. My bags are not plumbed together, my thinking was that any uneven load side to side would be magnified with the bags being tied together and air moving from one side to the other.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Probably because you're trying to compare a completely empty equipment trailer that has no limiting factors (water tank locations, RV interior design, and where the garage space is allocated within said floor plan) and you are free to place the equipment exactly where you want to to achieve the correct tongue weight/load out.

Read my follow up post, it's not always wheeled equipment with tons of room to adjust weight bias.

I'm not saying I don't believe you about your truck and trailer, I'm just trying to understand why.

 

[Otto M@n]

I need to figure out a better way to control air pressure on the bags. Like mentioned above the volume is so small on them it's hard to keep them even pressure. My bags are not plumbed together, my thinking was that any uneven load side to side would be magnified with the bags being tied together and air moving from one side to the other.

Don't know what to tell you about the air bags but something I had along your thought process:

I added air bags to my old '04 Ram 2500 before I got my 5th wheel, thinking I'd need them. I fucking didn't. Truck was loaded, sat, looked, and towed perfectly with a 2,200lb pin weight.

I did cheat and added the bags together with a T fitting so I only had one shrader valve. But like you said, I wonder how much of a load stability disservice I was doing to my self since during cornering, there was nothing to stop the outside bag from pushing that extra compressed air to the inside wheel. I can say the Sumo springs provided a very noticeable increase in cornering (while towing) stability.

Don't know what to tell you about the sway problems...as I said before, I have zero complaints about the performance of my setup...it 100% rides like a tank though

 

[Otto M@n]

What WOULD be awesome, and something I thought about - say I did remove the Sumo Springs and went with air bags.

T-connect the air bags so they are no longer independent.

Use the second input line to control the PSI of the shocker hitch, on the fly.

How full retard is that idea? Only problem I can think of right off the bat is figuring out how to make the air line be a quick disconnect (so I can easily remove the hitch when not needed)

WirelessAir App Only, No Controller + EZ Mount - 73000EZ | Air Lift Company

Performance Air Suspension and Air Management

www.airliftcompany.com

 

[YotaAtieToo]

What WOULD be awesome, and something I thought about - say I did remove the Sumo Springs and went with air bags.

T-connect the air bags so they are no longer independent.

Use the second input line to control the PSI of the shocker hitch, on the fly.

How full retard is that idea? Only problem I can think of right off the bat is figuring out how to make the air line be a quick disconnect (so I can easily remove the hitch when not needed)

WirelessAir App Only, No Controller + EZ Mount - 73000EZ | Air Lift Company

Performance Air Suspension and Air Management

www.airliftcompany.com

If only someone made quick connect air fittings........

 

[Otto M@n]

If only someone made quick connect air fittings........

 

[Otto M@n]

Otto M@n, I'm not berating you at all.


I am just thinking out loud about those type problems in general. I've towed trailers since I could drive and have had WD hitches. I have always thought of the WD hitch as a band aid to the real problem of the truck and trailer not correctly matching for one reason or another. All the new bumper pull "wonder hitch 5000's" out there only reinforces that thinking.

Seems 5th wheel and GN trailers rarely have problems other than bucking if the load isn't distributed properly.

Any chance of throwing that trailer onto a dually and seeing how it pulls? I pulled one of my buddy's RV's that was bumper pull and having sway problems. My dually said nope at 55 mph and started swaying. I believe that trailer design had too high of a polar moment of inertia. The trailer axles were in the middle and it had minimal tongue weight. He wound up selling it.

Honestly it'd probably be just fine with a dually and this shit is just the kinda luck I have

I have the setup I have for a multitude of reasons like everyone else. Being military, I don't get assigned to rural country areas, hence why I got a CCSB and just not a dually to begin with. I like having the smallest setup possible that is still large enough to fit all my shit. Not only do I not want to deal with the storage/fueling with a 42' monster toy hauler, I can't afford them either. I also put way too many miles on per race season to lose out on 2 or so more MPG. I like averaging 10-12MPG pulling at reasonable speeds.

Being take out of the rural-typeish areas, the days of having the space to build/fab stuff are gone (until I retire, anyways).

I don't really want to permantely modify the trailer and make it into a gooseneck (...already looked that up too). I figure I'm only going to have the trailer another 3-4 years. Next go around, I am for sure getting a gooseneck and being done with it. Bumper pull shit is for the birds. I'm thinking a shorter, 30 or 32 foot gooseneck. I like the way they pull, I like the way they ride, and I'm tired of getting grease on my fucking pants every time I have to install and remove that fucking heavy ass WD hitch

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I'm picturing a short piece of small air hose connected to hitch with female chuck on the bumper. May need to add a 1/8npt to 1/4npt adapter, but I can't see any reason that it would need to be more complex than that?

Bonus is you'll have on board air available if you just set that "bag" to max. The aforementioned 12 F250 was done exactly like that.

 

[TrailTamer]

Lol. I feel you regards swinging around the heavy WD hitch.

Seriously, take it for a test drive with your WD’s bars less tight, or removed.

I had my WD too tight for a load and somewhat match to what you’re having, miserable rough riding.

Your tow rig is a ‘16 Ram 2500 pulling a 10.5k GTWR trailer, for gods sake. Lol. My ancient 97 Ram 2500 LOVE heavy tongue weight. Ride like a caddy loaded down and with the WD hitch.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Honestly it'd probably be just fine with a dually and this shit is just the kinda luck I have

I have the setup I have for a multitude of reasons like everyone else. Being military, I don't get assigned to rural country areas, hence why I got a CCSB and just not a dually to begin with. I like having the smallest setup possible that is still large enough to fit all my shit. Not only do I not want to deal with the storage/fueling with a 42' monster toy hauler, I can't afford them either. I also put way too many miles on per race season to lose out on 2 or so more MPG. I like averaging 10-12MPG pulling at reasonable speeds.

Being take out of the rural-typeish areas, the days of having the space to build/fab stuff are gone (until I retire, anyways).

I don't really want to permantely modify the trailer and make it into a gooseneck (...already looked that up too). I figure I'm only going to have the trailer another 3-4 years. Next go around, I am for sure getting a gooseneck and being done with it. Bumper pull shit is for the birds. I'm thinking a shorter, 30 or 32 foot gooseneck. I like the way they pull, I like the way they ride, and I'm tired of getting grease on my fucking pants every time I have to install and remove that fucking heavy ass WD hitch

I don't think a dually would magically fix it.

I get not wanting to modify an expensive trailer also.

It sucks they don't make smaller 5th wheel toy haulers with big garage. Not everyone wants a 50' triple axle 2 bed 2 bath monster trailer just to haul a small rig or SxS. I just want a bed, shitter, shower and some places to keep and make food. I think a redneck hauler or building out an enclosed are the only way to achieve this.

 

[TrailTamer]

It sucks they don't make smaller 5th wheel toy haulers with big garage. Not everyone wants a 50' triple axle 2 bed 2 bath monster trailer just to haul a small rig or SxS. I just want a bed, shitter, shower and some places to keep and make food. I think a redneck hauler or building out an enclosed are the only way to achieve this.

How about just get a 26’ deckover and be done?

 

[Otto M@n]

I don't think a dually would magically fix it.

I get not wanting to modify an expensive trailer also.

It sucks they don't make smaller 5th wheel toy haulers with big garage. Not everyone wants a 50' triple axle 2 bed 2 bath monster trailer just to haul a small rig or SxS. I just want a bed, shitter, shower and some places to keep and make food. I think a redneck hauler or building out an enclosed are the only way to achieve this.

Dude...been looking at them for the last 6 months or so. When my truck is paid off, I'm getting a custom Intech trailer made for me for the exact reasons you mentioned. There are no more "Work and Play" style toy haulers anymore. They're all fru fru and have nicer appearances on the inside than my house does. Fucking 38' long 5th wheels and only a 10' garage?? Get the fuck outta here. Give me a 32-34' long gooseneck. 14' long separated garage with the living quarters up front - with a slide out.

I want mother fuckin' axles big enough to be able to haul 2 million pounds and be able to tow it at 200MPH. Torison axles because fuck leaf springs. Big ass 17.5" fucking rims and shit so tiny needle dick wheel bearings are never a problem again. I want cabinets that are robust and not built like shit as seen with any RV on the road today.

Something along the lines of this, just modified a bit:

38' inTech All Aluminum Living Quarters Race Trailer

All Aluminum 38' inTech Living Quarters Trailer

www.rpmtrailersales.com

 

[YotaAtieToo]

How about just get a 26’ deckover and be done?

I have a 22' deck over with a long tongue,l that I could extend the deck up. Plan was Sami on the front and crawler on the back, behind my truck with a cab over.

Dude...been looking at them for the last 6 months or so. When my truck is paid off, I'm getting a custom Intech trailer made for me for the exact reasons you mentioned. There are no more "Work and Play" style toy haulers anymore. They're all fru fru and have nicer appearances on the inside than my house does. Fucking 38' long 5th wheels and only a 10' garage?? Get the fuck outta here. Give me a 32-34' long gooseneck. 14' long separated garage with the living quarters up front - with a slide out.

Exactly, I would rather have basic, easy service living quarters and pay for a nice chassis, axles, ect. I'm fucking camping, not traveling the Mediterranean Coast

I want mother fuckin' axles big enough to be able to haul 2 million pounds and be able to tow it at 200MPH. Torison axles because fuck leaf springs. Big ass 17.5" fucking rims and shit so tiny needle dick wheel bearings are never a problem again. I want cabinets that are robust and not built like shit as seen with any RV on the road today.

Something along the lines of this, just modified a bit:

For motorcycles?

You complain about a rough ride now, but want to put 8k axles and 17.5s on a 10k lb trailer...... Good luck

 

[Otto M@n]

For motorcycles?

You complain about a rough ride now, but want to put 8k axles and 17.5s on a 10k lb trailer...... Good luck

Just like I want to be able to pull it at 200MPH...tis only a slight exaggeration. A more modest 175MPH cruising speed is more realisitc