Ifs 101

[Isdtbower]

Dude must have a lot of free time to plan toolpaths.

Most of the parts are right on the edge of my creativity. There was a lot of back and forth with designer, Dallas. I couldn't figure out how to hand machine the upright so Wild West had the part printed out. It took a couple weeks before I could figure out how to hold the block and the maybe 100 set-ups for each upright. As I said, I make everything out of pressed wood first. There are definite steps to cutting into a block and not being able to pick-up the next dimension. I guarantee that you will think about every step and dimension tens of times. You will see things that you just couldn't anticipate in a drawing. I actually couldn't visualize making them on a CNC, but later figured out a way on a 5 axis mill without making a ton of setups. These parts can take weeks and a thousand hours. Many times because you can cut alum only so fast and there is a lot to get rid of. As I remember the upright started out as about 125 lbs and finished around 30. The key to the part was machining a pedestal attached to a rotary table . That way I could work on the hub side of the upright and keep track of all the angles. Of course this was not the strongest set-up so cuts had to be small with some tools wayyyy tooo big for a Bridgeport.. And turn the crank or table the wrong way? You could destroy the whole thing in a nano second. 7075 is "unweldable." Actually ALL aluminum is unweldable for strength.

The first order of business, while the block was still square, was to bore all the holes and the CV pocket. Most was done during quiet nights. No radio. No nothing. The 7075 block is 7" thick and just fit in my band saw. Don't let the hub fool you either. It is 10" diameter to fit up a VW wide 5 wheel...to be different. The hub was a special project with Spidertrax. After that they knew they could make a hub for anything!

If you can find a stock OEM upright to fit your purpose...Go for it! They will be the most complex and accurate part to make, generally the least to do with geometry, but the most for strength.

After building these, it has been relatively easy to see where others would have breakage. Busting an upright will definitely end your day.

 

[Provience]

gotta ask, why the ~2" bullnose endmill? I pretty much cut 7075 as fast as i can crank the handle, the DRO certainly does help with reaching stop points more quick and easy

lot's of angles and pretty damned neat. I wonder what the price difference would have been to get it cast/forged and then finish machined. probably huge bucks for only 2

know anybody with a 100T press?

 

[Isdtbower]

I've been wondering if that was going to be the mic drop for this thread. It's not really a great finish for a budget oriented ifs thread.

Now for some tech: Hey Ben (@Isdtbower), what's the story on how that misalignment spacer system indexes in to the top of the knuckle? I've seen some cool systems for integrating the spacer so that the necessarily small bolt isn't taking all the load. This seems like an important detail to making the horizontal uniball work on top.

Here is a rough sketch of the top pin area. The white in the center is a hardened pin held from rotating by press fit and hex key bore in the bottom. The top cap is keyed into the pin and misalignments so the bolt will not come loose if the omni seizes. The bolt head can also be soft pined to the top cap, and broken with a wrench. Most top systems are close to this. Designed for 2WD desert uprights. You could drop everything in from the top and a washer/nut from the bottom....but that gets big quick and no way to bore from the bottom (With what I have).

 

[patooyee]

Wow, look at that Ben. You posted up so much bling that everyone has been awestruck for two days.....

That has been me. I've not had time to keep up so I've not been replying. I've also been trying to get this Solidworks model to do what I want it to do and been failing.

I plan to go back through it all where I left off at some point but work has had me busy the past few days.

 

[Isdtbower]

I was just gonna say, I don't like aluminum for these parts

Aluminum is light but it's also roughly 1/3 stiff as steel, hates cracks and scratches, and is lousy threaded.

Yes to all of the above, and why you have to NOT TRY to beat the weight of a properly designed cro-mo part, or even a heat treated one. 7075 had the yield of mild steel but cracks way easier. So nothing should be designed with flex. It ain't cheap. Yes a consumable in racing. But fun a hell to be a little artsy. And I am no welder for things under stress. I have a few racing aches to remind me daily. And I have been building up parts for several years, testing the limits. (Trying to clamp a omniball between two alum tabs is a good discussion. You basically don't want anything under stress so One tab has to have a press fit sleeve to relieve the bolt clamping stress. Only one tab locates the minor "Z" direction...and designed with that in mind.)(Just my thinking)

Yes on the mill DRO. Definitely would increase the time by 5X and watching what side of the screw you were working on. Yeh. I go back that far. Not a machinist but you do learn stuff working in a R&D environment where you just have to try stuff and learn from the tolerances and mistakes. Different today. I was mentored by a ships machinist in WWII. They had to make everything with whatever they had on board. Not necessarily frugal, but got the job done or a sitting duck......

Yes on a resetable DRO before anything else. I have servo feed on x axis only for the long cranks which may go an hour. (Buy the Servo brand) Good vise, hold downs, rotary table with Buck chuck, boring head, right angle head, and tooling where ebay is your friend!! Everyone has stuff on the shelf they don't need. And right now, the major upgrades are old school inexpensive. XY DRO seems enough as the table is always on one side of the screw.

Lets keep having some fun!! That is what it is all about ....if you already have a capable wheeler that generally suits your needs. Trying to do this when your buddies are out playing is NOT where you want to be. This is not instant gratification and about making something that generally can't bought within your budget. Us, working for $0.15/hr helps ........

Mounting tabs heated, bent and welded. 1980 Testing...still working. Chevy would not approve tho. (72 Corvette center). Half shafts twisted like a dish rag and trailing arms bent under 500hp. learning about steel also.....

 

[patooyee]

Most of the parts are right on the edge of my creativity. There was a lot of back and forth with designer, Dallas. I couldn't figure out how to hand machine the upright so Wild West had the part printed out. It took a couple weeks before I could figure out how to hold the block and the maybe 100 set-ups for each upright. As I said, I make everything out of pressed wood first. There are definite steps to cutting into a block and not being able to pick-up the next dimension. I guarantee that you will think about every step and dimension tens of times. You will see things that you just couldn't anticipate in a drawing. I actually couldn't visualize making them on a CNC, but later figured out a way on a 5 axis mill without making a ton of setups. These parts can take weeks and a thousand hours. Many times because you can cut alum only so fast and there is a lot to get rid of. As I remember the upright started out as about 125 lbs and finished around 30. The key to the part was machining a pedestal attached to a rotary table . That way I could work on the hub side of the upright and keep track of all the angles. Of course this was not the strongest set-up so cuts had to be small with some tools wayyyy tooo big for a Bridgeport.. And turn the crank or table the wrong way? You could destroy the whole thing in a nano second. 7075 is "unweldable." Actually ALL aluminum is unweldable for strength.

The first order of business, while the block was still square, was to bore all the holes and the CV pocket. Most was done during quiet nights. No radio. No nothing. The 7075 block is 7" thick and just fit in my band saw. Don't let the hub fool you either. It is 10" diameter to fit up a VW wide 5 wheel...to be different. The hub was a special project with Spidertrax. After that they knew they could make a hub for anything!

If you can find a stock OEM upright to fit your purpose...Go for it! They will be the most complex and accurate part to make, generally the least to do with geometry, but the most for strength.

After building these, it has been relatively easy to see where others would have breakage. Busting an upright will definitely end your day.

Wow, did not realize this was all done this way. This is now what I will forever remember you for. Amazing work, sir!

 

[Isdtbower]

gotta ask, why the ~2" bullnose endmill? I pretty much cut 7075 as fast as i can crank the handle, the DRO certainly does help with reaching stop points more quick and easy 🤣:

The bull nose is to put a radius behind the rodends and bushing holders. It cuts down on a lot of hand work. I got that on ebay for $40 delivered. It has since been my show and tell tool.

When you are messing with plates in the 200lb and more range (now 50ish). You don't crank too fast..... or much. You can see on this setup that I am off the table considerably. I suppose I could have put the part on another 100lb block to prevent that....but you do what you can for as much speed as possible. On a 300 lb traling arm I had 200 of it off the end of the table. That lifted the table about .020 on the other end. You have to compensate for that. I put 200 lbs of steel on the other end to fore it back down. Do what ya gotta do.

The second shot is drilling the 3/4" bottom pivot holes. They are 24" apart. I was hoping to do it in one pass but the drill walked too much. So I had to do 4 set-ups and keep the alignment "perfect" Aligning took about an hour to get everything as perfect as possible to keep that line straight. Two drills. 11/16 and 3/4 nw $125ea. Pretty nuts. Do what ya got to do.

I am lucky to have good suppliers of salvage alum from the black and aviation industries in Los Angeles. A run last month was for 800 lbs. a 5ft wide sheet of 2024 for a roof and under-UHMW skid.plus lengths of 7075 for do-dahs. Hard to find is radius cornered 6061 rectangle tube that can be welded for bracing... Supercar style. I am starting to look at old time woodworking joinery to see where bolting pieces together makes more sense that welding. welding and the HAZ probably accounts for 90% of frame failures/cracking. Gotta minimize that. I usually find a solution. May take a while for the thoughts to come together tho.

Kind of off subject in this thread but no matter how you are building your IFS. Be prepared for challenges. Congratulate thoset out running them, and help and encourage those that are building.
.

 

[Provience]

well, for $40 there is certainly no complaints about that. seemed an odd choice, or at least an odd choice to do more than finish stuff with. But the great thing about machining is the 500 ways to setup and do any sort of thing.

there isn't much out there that cannot be riveted instead of welded.

 

[Tech Tim]

Wow, did not realize this was all done this way. This is now what I will forever remember you for. Amazing work, sir!

Right?????

 

[Isdtbower]

well, for $40 there is certainly no complaints about that. seemed an odd choice, or at least an odd choice to do more than finish stuff with. But the great thing about machining is the 500 ways to setup and do any sort of thing.

I actually needed a longer length to get a radius behind the bottom upright ball mount. When I did the wood prototype. The bottom tabss were flimsy. On the alum, I made the wide and with a biggr bottom radius. Always better the second time.

A couple vids for fun if interested. But back to normal builds.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOCO...ature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jSY...ature=youtu.be

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuU6W0dLwZk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrOmNj9-HGQ[/URL]

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

I actually needed a longer length to get a radius behind the bottom upright ball mount. When I did the wood prototype. The bottom tabss were flimsy. On the alum, I made the wide and with a biggr bottom radius. Always better the second time.

A couple vids for fun if interested. But back to normal builds.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOCO...ature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jSY...ature=youtu.be

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuU6W0dLwZk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrOmNj9-HGQ[/URL]

You really should post a build thread here. The things you have going on and the way you are getting things done is absolutely wild!

 

[Isdtbower]

You really should post a build thread here. The things you have going on and the way you are getting things done is absolutely wild!

I think the reason we like to mess with IFS is it is basic analog thinking and applying digital. If we had to THINK digital it wouldn't be our kind of fun anymore. Fabricating is working on the analog side of the brain. One where exploring, common sense, and dreaming can overcome. (You think about sh_t like this when you are on a long crank.....Basic ) 😁

 

[Ghetto Fab.]

I think the reason we like to mess with IFS is it is basic analog thinking and applying digital. If we had to THINK digital it wouldn't be our kind of fun anymore. Fabricating is working on the analog side of the brain. One where exploring, common sense, and dreaming can overcome. (You think about sh_t like this when you are on a long crank.....Basic ) 😁

Yes, my kind of fun. Is it odd that I can't imagine what other people do for fun? They must lead very boring lives.

Kevin

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

Yes, my kind of fun. Is it odd that I can't imagine what other people do for fun? They must lead very boring lives.

Kevin

Right!

 

[patooyee]

While not as cool as ISD's parts, I 3d-printed a 1/4-scale Chevy knuckle tonight. I then screwed it up by experimenting smoothing with brake kleen on it. It actually did smooth it but also discolored it. Still good enough to use in a scale model suspension eventually though.

Sorry, I know this is lame. :)

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

While not as cool as ISD's parts, I 3d-printed a 1/4-scale Chevy knuckle tonight. I then screwed it up by experimenting smoothing with brake kleen on it. It actually did smooth it but also discolored it. Still good enough to use in a scale model suspension eventually though.

Sorry, I know this is lame. :)

The fact that shit like that is now possible to do at home is very fawkin cool!

Takes 3D modeling to a whole new level.

 

[Wilson]

I think it’s cool as well. I’ve never gotten into CAD or virtual modeling, but this would intrigue me.

 

[Tech Tim]

That is really cool JJ!

 

[Provience]

While not as cool as ISD's parts, I 3d-printed a 1/4-scale Chevy knuckle tonight. I then screwed it up by experimenting smoothing with brake kleen on it. It actually did smooth it but also discolored it. Still good enough to use in a scale model suspension eventually though.

Sorry, I know this is lame. :)

that's only a 1/4 scale? huh.

and honestly, that's pretty damned awesome. being able to prototype that way, which is certainly cheaper and easier to make again and again for adjustments, is pretty neat. fuck up a 600lb block of AL because your math was a bit off from a transposition error and you're in for a pretty rough day compared to just printing another small knuckle

 

[Treefrog]

While not as cool as ISD's parts, I 3d-printed a 1/4-scale Chevy knuckle tonight. I then screwed it up by experimenting smoothing with brake kleen on it. It actually did smooth it but also discolored it. Still good enough to use in a scale model suspension eventually though.

Sorry, I know this is lame. :)

What type of plastic are you printing with?

 

[patooyee]

What type of plastic are you printing with?

That was pla but I can do petg, abs, a bunch of others.

 

[Treefrog]

That was pla but I can do petg, abs, a bunch of others.

Abs smooths pretty well with acetone.

 

[patooyee]

Abs smooths pretty well with acetone.

Yeah but it's a pain in the ass to print and this wasn't important enough to bother with that.

Honestly I was told that the brake kleen wouldn't work so I'm glad I tried it.

 

[Provience]

Yeah but it's a pain in the ass to print and this wasn't important enough to bother with that.

Honestly I was told that the brake kleen wouldn't work so I'm glad I tried it.

can't imagine texture matters much, at least not as much as being able to get mounting locations close to accurate to play with arm lengths and see what's going on with changin x or y or z

 

[OCM]

Quick test to upload pics, haven't done this in a while. Info coming on my ifs build, hope it has good info for the OP.

 

[OCM]

I built this for the same reasons as the OP. I raced KOH 4800 class in 2018. I wanted to try ifs. This build was done around a front engine straight axle car. Based on the RCV chevy front shaft kit and the later model (bigger) chevy wheel bearings. I wanted to build this to be durable enough for racing and have readily available replacement parts. Researched the narrowed front chev diff but found no source for the front shaft setup. I used the currie 35 spline inners and built the center housing to save some cash. Uses the mega hi9 from my straight axle. This setup gave me a durable front driveline (good enough for 37s). Made my own knuckels so that I could reuse my calipers and not be stuck with the factory chev knuckle geometry.
Before I get into the control arm geometry I will say that all the decisions that I made where to make the build easy to fabricate. Other than the machining that I did at a buddies shop, everything was built in my garage. The arms are flat with the chassis and parallel top to bottom. 2-3 neg deg camber throughout travel, 10 deg caster. Not too fancy and should work goos for everything that I want it to do. Hope all the pics load!

 

[OCM]

[No message]

 

[OCM]

[No message]

 

[OCM]

Steering was done with reused hyrdo ram from the old front axle.
Being and old rock crawler guy, I was shooting for max up and down travel with max steering. Everything was great until I put the cv shafts in and found that they would be the limiting factor for EVERYTHING! The other limit was track width, I didnt want to go too much wider than the original front axle. Narrow track width = short half shafts = limited travel and steering. 82 inches to outsides of the tires about 14 inches of wheel travel and about 35-38 deg of steering is all that I have to keep the cvs safe.
Couple of cad pics, everything in 2d just to see it before I built it.

 

[patooyee]

Made my own knuckels so that I could reuse my calipers and not be stuck with the factory chev knuckle geometry.

Thanks for posting. What did you see as being wrong with the factory knuckle geometry?