Ifs 101

[SLOWPOKE693]

Safety wire doesn't keep the bolts tight, just from falling off and sucked into something else.

What?

 

[patooyee]

[ig]https://irate4x4.com/filedata/fetch?id=277621[/img]

Those look like typical weld-in tractor joints. Are they not?

 

[mobil1syn]

Those look like typical weld-in tractor joints. Are they not?

not following

 

[Provience]

Safety wire doesn't keep the bolts tight, just from falling off and sucked into something else.

interesting notion.

if you do your safety wire properly, it will keep the bolt heads and nuts from spinning, which will keep them tight short of stretch induced failures.

 

[Weasel]

What?

One of the biggest lies (misunderstood idea really) on the internet. https://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=1549

 

[patooyee]

not following

Weld-in tractor joint, generally used in 3-point hitches and such:

 

[Sterlingfire]

Safety wire doesn't keep the bolts tight, just from falling off and sucked into something else.

Pretty sure you're wrong, but ok...

Then there's this:

So to begin: Safety Wire(ing) is the process of using thin stainless steel wire to hold a bolt head or nut in place, and to make it impossible for that fastener to loosen. You can safety wire hardware to other solid parts, or to other nuts and bolts in a pattern that they will all keep each other tight.

just saw your post. i see what they're saying. If like to know the environment they were testing in first though.

 

[Sterlingfire]

There is also this, from the faa..

Maybe it means nothing, but it sure seems like the misleading info is nearly everywhere.

 

[Provience]

One of the biggest lies (misunderstood idea really) on the internet. https://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=1549

will safety wire prevent every loss of preload? not a chance.

will it prevent more loss of preload than a simple lock washer before complete failure? absolutely

 

[Stephen Wilson]

Safety wire effectiveness is going to vary by specific application. For light to moderately loaded fasteners it's great, especially for threaded parts without a nut, like covers, oil filters, filler caps, and multi-fastener covers like dry sump pumps. For moderately loaded nut/bolt lock nuts are great, but I prefer castle nuts for critical parts you may not bolt-check frequently. Regular split lock nuts are pretty well accepted to suck.High load and/or vibration parts are a problem, especially with larger size fasteners. When I tried wire or castle nuts on my race car motor mounts they would lose torque and cause chafing on the clamping surfaces. NAS bolts, Jet nuts and hardened washers solved the problem, and facilitated easier, more frequent re-torquing.

 

[mobil1syn]

Weld-in tractor joint, generally used in 3-point hitches and such:

uniball insert, like the armada one but square.

 

[Weasel]

will safety wire prevent every loss of preload? not a chance.

will it prevent more loss of preload than a simple lock washer before complete failure? absolutely

that's the thing you either loose preload or you don't. Like it's tight or it's loose, there isn't a sorta loose for clamping loads.

Safety wire effectiveness is going to vary by specific application. For light to moderately loaded fasteners it's great, especially for threaded parts without a nut, like covers, oil filters, filler caps, and multi-fastener covers like dry sump pumps. For moderately loaded nut/bolt lock nuts are great, but I prefer castle nuts for critical parts you may not bolt-check frequently. Regular split lock nuts are pretty well accepted to suck. High load and/or vibration parts are a problem, especially with larger size fasteners. When I tried wire or castle nuts on my race car motor mounts they would lose torque and cause chafing on the clamping surfaces. NAS bolts, Jet nuts and hardened washers solved the problem, and facilitated easier, more frequent re-torquing.

Said better then I did. And Nordlocks work very well.

 

[Provience]

that's the thing you either loose preload or you don't. Like it's tight or it's loose, there isn't a sorta loose for clamping loads.



Said better then I did. And Nordlocks work very well.

there is sorta loose 99.99% of bolts on a car are not torqued properly anyways #ProveMeWrong

 

[mobil1syn]

there is sorta loose 99.99% of bolts on a car are not torqued properly anyways #ProveMeWrong

most people dont plan well enough to get tools to fasteners, let alone a torque wrench on the nut of one.

hit it with an impact and call it good.

 

[Tech Tim]

Weld-in tractor joint, generally used in 3-point hitches and such:

That wouldn't surprise me on a down south rock bouncer, but NO!


For budget uniballs, look at the COM series:

 

[Tech Tim]

This PDF probably belongs in this thread and the 4-link thread.

 

[Tech Tim]

Another very good PDF:

 

[Isdtbower]

OH Boy. Here we go. Tim opened up the inevitable bag of worms. I would suggest that one becomes very familiar with what KarTek Off-Road has to offer in their catalog. They are the go-to guys, As well as others (Fragiola) that offer OFF-road specific IFS builder parts. Rod Ends, Omniballs, MISALIGNMENTS. Misalignment bushings are what get you the big angles. The ball portion should be precise and the whole bushing hardened as they can crush easily with 3/4" bolts, etc.

A misalignment bushing for a COMH24 (1.5") Omniball will increase the turn angle from 8.5* to 23*. There is also the WSSX series omniballs that are wider than the COMH series and wrap the ball further for more lateral load. Less common is also the GEZ series that has very minimal angle 3* but offers real seals. (Hint. Not so common is replacing the rod end bearings with GEZ sealed bearings for the inside top arm rod ends that see minimal angle change.)

https://www.kartek.com/parts-categor...lignments.html

Not listed on the above chart is the rated axial load...and why you might not want to run a COM bearing with the bolt horizontally. A Com and GEZ bearing is usually rated at 10)% of radial, A WSSX at 15% and why they are used in TT's and U4 with horizontal bolts. Bigger bearing and misalignments are your friend. Very common is the "24 or 1.500" size" on uprights. The comH series can be used on the vertical bolt top omni as you are working on the radial spec...and a good reason for the vertical stud. I had these misalignments made for the top vertical "pin/stud/bolt." to get 45* vertical articulation at the top arm. The COMH24 misalignment allowed 45* with a 1" hardened shaft. That was designed by Wild West (D & T). Mike and group at TMR in Canada did an outstanding job on fits with 17-4 Stainless. LIke Spidertrax and others in our community, they are a custom house also! They "Get it" That is a 1.5" inside dia COM bearing, and not the finished part. A 5/8" bolt goes down from the top, which gets covered by the bearing at full articulaltion. We also had to find a way to physically lock that bolt so it couldn't come loose. Fun and games with much thought.

https://www.tmrcustoms.com/

Wild West had been working overtime on great U4 geometry...But I had to throw in the curve for all aluminum. There was minimal alum history in U4 needs so we played the game of moch ups with some of the first printed parts and then in pressed wood. If I could break the moch-up with a hammer... we re-designed for strength without loosing clearance. !/8 inches made a difference! We were also watching what broke or wore out in ALL IFS designs...As we still do today.

Thanks to all for that breakage history. Stuff breaks...We like to know why, to design around it. Building with 7075 aluminum means you have to do it right the first time. With CroMo and welding..., Sometimes you can recover from a weak design.....and recommended!! As a FYI. I have yet to beat the weight of a well designed CroMo part. Aluminum needs to be thick so you may also loose some closeness in design.

For size. The heim is 1" in a 1.25" hoop and the CV a Series 30. Rotor 13". The bottom WSSX-24 omni ball had to be horizontal bolt to keep the tabs thick.

 

[Tech Tim]

Wow, look at that Ben. You posted up so much bling that everyone has been awestruck for two days.....

 

[Provience]

Wow, look at that Ben. You posted up so much bling that everyone has been awestruck for two days.....

I mean, how do you even respond to that?

I like drooling on my computer as much as the next guy....

 

[Stephen]

I've been wondering if that was going to be the mic drop for this thread. It's not really a great finish for a budget oriented ifs thread.

Now for some tech: Hey Ben (@Isdtbower), what's the story on how that misalignment spacer system indexes in to the top of the knuckle? I've seen some cool systems for integrating the spacer so that the necessarily small bolt isn't taking all the load. This seems like an important detail to making the horizontal uniball work on top.

 

[arse_sidewards]

I mean, how do you even respond to that?

By reminding him that the vehicle will be like 2sec slower with all that shit made out of steel and that telling the driver "there's sixty bucks of tube in these control arms, they're a consumable" will make the car 4sec faster

 

[Tech Tim]

I've been wondering if that was going to be the mic drop for this thread. It's not really a great finish for a budget oriented ifs thread.

It is totally IBB oriented in that Ben has hand built those parts out of aluminum blocks on a manual mill in his garage!

Ben, post up a couple of your build pics....

 

[Tech Tim]

More stuff to fap to in Ben's pic than in the pcnp thread over in the TP....

 

[arse_sidewards]

It is totally IBB oriented in that Ben has hand built those parts out of aluminum blocks on a manual mill in his garage!

Ben, post up a couple of your build pics....

Dude must have a lot of free time to plan toolpaths.

 

[Weasel]

By reminding him that the vehicle will be like 2sec slower with all that shit made out of steel and that telling the driver "there's sixty bucks of tube in these control arms, they're a consumable" will make the car 4sec faster

I was just gonna say, I don't like aluminum for these parts

Aluminum is light but it's also roughly 1/3 stiff as steel, hates cracks and scratches, and is lousy threaded.

 

[Weasel]

It is totally IBB oriented in that Ben has hand built those parts out of aluminum blocks on a manual mill in his garage!

Ben, post up a couple of your build pics....

now if he doesn't have a DRO and feeds on his manual mill I'll be impressed. Seriously nice machining in a how shop though.

 

[arse_sidewards]

now if he doesn't have a DRO and feeds on his manual mill I'll be impressed. Seriously nice machining in a how shop though.

Lack of power feed isn't that big a deal, mostly just affects surface finish.

Lack of DRO would make that much work a PITA.

 

[crazybluerider]

Lack of power feed isn't that big a deal, mostly just affects surface finish.

Lack of DRO would make that much work a PITA.

That's where I'm at with my home mill. Definitely buying a DRO before any feeds. Manual feed has never really made me mad. Not having a DRO has pissed me off a couple times when I've made stupid mistakes that a DRO would have saved me from.

 

[Stephen]

I was just gonna say, I don't like aluminum for these parts

Aluminum is light but it's also roughly 1/3 stiff as steel, hates cracks and scratches, and is lousy threaded.

Imagine when we can "print" this stuff in a 4340!