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Ifs 101
- Thread starter patooyee
- Start date
The plunge action of a CV isn't frictionless. But I have no doubt that it's probably never enough to overcome a pressed bearing fit.
I mainly questioned it because you always hear of transaxles guys pulling their shafts out of the trans from the driveshaft slip yoke friction despite the circlips on the shafts. This would seem like a similar scenario, albeit with a different solution.
I’ve seen Nick Nelson and Loren Healy obliterate these things. They just seem so little for the forces they are tasked with handling.
Wilson
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The cv mounting width is the only thing “small” about those. I believe Tim Cameron ran one on an early ifs build. I’m not sure on U4. That center was mentioned earlier in this thread as being problematic because of the difficulty in mounting arms that could match the cv width.
Wow, that doesn't look strong at all. Judging by the welding helmet and ground clamp in the picture, its a small bitch!
He still is. Watching his current rig vs the rest of the rock bouncing field is like night and day right now. Big hits that everyone else has to slow down for, he speeds up into to gain time and the rig just soaks it in like it didn't happen. I forget which race it was this year but he won with his time like 50% lower than the combined total of 2nd and 3rd place. If they would have been on the track at the same time he would have lapped them. I don't really even follow rock bouncing anymore but I know he did extremely well this year and his current IFS rig is very dialed in. When I watch the bouncing videos I do so only to compare his rig's performance to the others because of the IFS.
Bebop
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I don't think so.
His current rig has a front bulkhead from Triton Engineering and I'm pretty sure it uses a spidertrax centersection.
the ram rolls to maintain plane as it goes through the steering. typical racks and swing sets do not.
im sure someone who is smart can do the math, but i bet the working surface area is the same if not greater on the rack. the fluid is pushing on the overall diameter less the shaft. bigger ram with bigger shaft doesnt mean more force.
Even if he is using the 10" gears how the hell is he getting them to live? He was running D80s when his cars were still solid axle and managed to break those. I dont see 10" gears being an upgrade.
michael.gonzalez
Banned
Maybe he is running some kind of portal? I haven't been keeping up with Timmy CamRons latest and greatest rig though.
You're right. I had recently watched his walk-around of his IFS car but I realize now that it was his prior one, not the current one. (Hard to keep up when he builds a new one every 6 months! LOL.)
That brings up something that I still don't completely understand, which is this concept of bulkheads. Triton built TC's? So they are something that is built separate from the rest of the rig and then attached somehow?
Tech Tim
Your AD Here....
No need to go overboard, a single row ball bearing works just fine and you can get then pretty narrow. It really is only there to help support the shaft in position and keep it there.
Spidertrax and Currie both use a press on bearing collar like a semi-float rear axle shaft. Pic below is from the Spidertrax website.
I've seen one where the bearing is help on with a snap ring, don't remember whose that was.
There is not a lot of load pulling that inner stub out of the center unless you have a lot of plunge and are over traveling the inboard plunging joint.
Tech Tim
Your AD Here....
Campbell used the Dutchman center in their first IFS KOH racer:
Another super-cool center is the one built by Summit Machine. They're quite spendy and very sexy (and narrow).
Isdtbower is using one in the all billet-aluminum IFS he has been working on with my kid.
There is/was an even narrower 9" center out there from Australia or maybe NZ, the housing itself was more like a Dana (Salibury) style cast center. They hurried the inner stub bearings behind the adjuster nuts to save space and got down to around 10" or so. Not sure if I still have pictures somewhere.They were the narrowest 9" center out there until Spidertrax built their new narrow center housing.
Another super-cool center is the one built by Summit Machine. They're quite spendy and very sexy (and narrow).
Isdtbower is using one in the all billet-aluminum IFS he has been working on with my kid.
There is/was an even narrower 9" center out there from Australia or maybe NZ, the housing itself was more like a Dana (Salibury) style cast center. They hurried the inner stub bearings behind the adjuster nuts to save space and got down to around 10" or so. Not sure if I still have pictures somewhere.They were the narrowest 9" center out there until Spidertrax built their new narrow center housing.
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yep. someone posted a picture somewhere in this thread as to what a "bulkhead" was
https://irate4x4.com/general-4x4/243...436#post267436
in the dezert world you can buy a lot of bulkhead y-frame setups, aka geometry all set. make it look like what you want. this are for the peasents who want to build it themselves. but most of the major companies offer something
https://diyoffroad.com/product-category/race-chassis-play-chassis/complete-yframe-setups/
https://diyoffroad.com/product-cate...assis/complete-bulkhead-assemblies-from-tekk/
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AgitatedPancake
Frobot
That's how I interpret it as well. Basically the A arm mounts, diff mount, and steering are all designed as a self contained package that can then be built into a chassis. So the bulkhead itself as a bare element is the front structural piece with mounts for LCAs UCAs diff and steering
Isn't that a pretty major portion of the chassis though? The concept of someone else providing the front third of my chassis and then me just making it fit seems foreign to me.
i think someone like tim recognized other people had a better understanding of thing than he did. he tried it himself and it didnt go well, he wants to win not spend time trying to develop something, so he got a proven design and it has worked out well for him.
spend the time and money to R&D yourself or buy a product that works? you are like a few people i know and buying something someone else designed is a foreign concept to you
Tech Tim
Your AD Here....
Here is the bulkhead we built for Kenslin's U4 car:
Built in WA, shipped to AZ, where Klensin welded it into one of his Crossed-up Customs chassis'. And because time was tight.... KOH, right? LoL.... we built the bulkhead and shipped it first. Mike was welding it into his chassis as we were building a-arms, spindle uprights, etc.
When we did Scherer's first car, Adam at Tribe sent us the dimensions of his chassis' firewall tube layout, we designed out from there up here in WA. Jason Scherer and crew built it all in CA and then shipped it to Tribe in Texas who welded it into their chassis. Talk about a tri-state build!
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Bebop
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He hasn't broken any Dana 80 in his previous rig that I know of.
He hasn't broken any 10" that I know of.
Based on these "facts" the move to 10" center sections is an upgrade as they are lighter and hold up.
A lot of people like to bash him but he is an amazing driver and extremely smooth. Rarely breaks anything these days.
Bebop
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That's a sure way to get a good design under your rig instead of going through all the R&D iterations. Seems like a good concept to me.
arse_sidewards
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Also a sure way to have to work around someone else's design decisions that might not be ideal for you.
Bebop
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Seems like it worked well for Shannon Campbell, Tim Cameron, Scherer and many more.
I am not one of the TC bashers. Dude can definitely drive his balls off! I also find it impressive that he builds all his own stuff.
And for you guys complaining about the pre-built bulkheads.....
You really think that you would be able to build something at home that is going to work better than one that is a proven winner on your first try?
The guys building these prefab bulkheads have literally thousands and thousands of R&D and testing hours on these things. That alone is worth its weight in gold in my opinion
arse_sidewards
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How many people here are fielding competitive race vehicles?
It's just not relevent for save a couple of people in this discussion.
Yes, you can build a buggy with just your wallet but if we could afford to or wanted to do that we wouldn't be having this thread.
If your goal is to be on the podium by all means pay someone else for the bulkhead. That is certainly the most effective path toward a competitive racing vehicle. But if your goal is to gain the understanding and experience you should be building things yourself.
You can't buy a cheap IFS for a trail beater. The guy who designs a buggy IFS that isn't quite competitive can still turn around and build something that is more than adequate for a trail rig or daily driver. The guy who buys a weld in solution for his buggy will have a faster buggy but he will not have the acquired experience to pull off those lower end projects successfully.
It's just not relevent for save a couple of people in this discussion.
Yes, you can build a buggy with just your wallet but if we could afford to or wanted to do that we wouldn't be having this thread.
If your goal is to be on the podium by all means pay someone else for the bulkhead. That is certainly the most effective path toward a competitive racing vehicle. But if your goal is to gain the understanding and experience you should be building things yourself.
You can't buy a cheap IFS for a trail beater. The guy who designs a buggy IFS that isn't quite competitive can still turn around and build something that is more than adequate for a trail rig or daily driver. The guy who buys a weld in solution for his buggy will have a faster buggy but he will not have the acquired experience to pull off those lower end projects successfully.
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And for you guys complaining about the pre-built bulkheads.....
You really think that you would be able to build something at home that is going to work better than one that is a proven winner on your first try?
The guys building these prefab bulkheads have literally thousands and thousands of R&D and testing hours on these things. That alone is worth its weight in gold in my opinion
I don't know if this was directed toward me, but I wasn't complaining. We're just coming at this from two completely different schools of thought, which is fine, and what I expected when I started this thread.
Racing experience is valuable to me so far as it is shared for the benefit of all. But these names that get thrown around a lot in this thread mean little to me. TC, SC, and LH are about the only ones I recognize and I couldn't tell you where these people placed in races recently. (Other than TC a little since he races on my side of the country.) I have nothing against them, just no interest because I don't care to win any races. Building a quarter million dollar car and hauling it across the country to race it is so far out of the realm of possibilities for me that It's not even worth thinking about. I see the value of buying those bulkheads to someone who only cares about winning a race. But if those guys aren't willing to come on here and share any of that experience it has exactly zero value to me. (Not blaming them for not sharing.) That's why I appreciate ISD, Tech Tim, and the few others who have come and shared here so much.
For me, if I didn't build it, I wouldn't even be doing it. Paying someone for a component that I learn nothing from is a waste. Burning $100 bills for warmth would literally be a better use of money to me.
And just for the record, no, I don't think I could build something that worked as well my first try. I plan to do this in Solidworks first and then possibly 3d-print a working model to get it as good as I can before I commit though.
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Tech Tim is one of the guys involved in building those bulkheads and is here sharing tech. Granted its not everybody involved but its a great start and helps legitimize the tech being posted on this site. Which is a good thing for both the users and the site itself.
If I were trying to build an IFS from scratch i would go find me a good handling SxS suspension to measure, increase the size in a model so it fits your needs and then tweak the mounting points from there to get the caster and camber gains you are looking for.
The biggest factor in all of this is going to be the diff. Until you know what you are using and the width you have to work with you really can't model or build anything. Basically the entire front suspension design hinges off the mounting width of the CVs. Id start by planning out a diff build and then go from there.
If I were trying to build an IFS from scratch i would go find me a good handling SxS suspension to measure, increase the size in a model so it fits your needs and then tweak the mounting points from there to get the caster and camber gains you are looking for.
The biggest factor in all of this is going to be the diff. Until you know what you are using and the width you have to work with you really can't model or build anything. Basically the entire front suspension design hinges off the mounting width of the CVs. Id start by planning out a diff build and then go from there.
Bebop
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This, for sure.
Tech Tim
Your AD Here....
The reason we designed and/or built complete bulkheads for the racers was to keep everything exactly where it needs to be for proper geometry. If we just give measurements of where to place things (mere suggestions) and the builder moves something 1/2" off, it could really effect the performance. And that actually happened on an early IFS. We sent the files, sent the placement dimensions, the builder mounted it 1/2"-ish off because they didn't want to work around our changes...... AND the car lost quite a bit of steering angle. Little things make big changes.
Plus they're building a buggy, it's a lot easier to add in a prefabbed bulkhead to a buggy, especially if it's rear engined.
Not yet you can't, but there are some people working on it.
Exactly! This is all about doing it yourself and people can design and build their own IFS. This is the same as 4-links. 20 years ago 4-links were black magic, now everyone and their uncle is an "expert".
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with JJ.
The best advice I could give anyone is to think of IFS as a more complicated 4-link. Many of the rules apply, just a little differently.
I mentioned it earlier - for anyone wanting to build a trail IFS, grab either a Toyota 1st gen IFS ('86-94) or a GM 3500 IFS (2001-2010), depending on tire size wants/needs. Both of those IFS' work pretty good and will travel decently once you stretch them out. Toyota and Chevy spent $$$$$ engineering their suspensions, use their engineering know-how.
You can pick them up fairly cheap and have everything there to start with, then copy the geometry. Start out by narrowing the center diff or use a different narrower center (8.8, 9", Yugo or whatever you want), then bring in the frame mounting points the same distance that you narrowed up the center. Then either stretch the OE arms or build new longer arms.
If you keep the keep the relation of the a-arm pivot points and steering pivot points to their prospective CV centerlines, you can move everything else around. Narrow up the center, stretch out the a-arms. Want to stay cheap? Use factory components and upgrade as your funds allow. Want to go all blingy with high dollar stuff? Then do it.
The beauty of doing it this way is you are already using an existing design that works and it will fit all pocketbooks AND more importantly, if you pay attention to what you are building and changing, you will learn the basics of IFS design or as arse_sidewards alluded to you will acquire experience.
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100% true. I'm willing to commit some money to the concept at this point. If anyone has a line on a used / bought & not used Dutchman housing and shafts, PM me. I've seen a couple old ads for them in the classifieds, so they're out there.