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George Floyd bodycam video leaks.

After watching, I think the cops are guilty of failure to render aid, and the guy with the knee on the neck excessive force and failure to render aid. After the Floyd went unresponsive they should have done something, but I don't believe any of this was racial, and Floyd was sketch from the start.
 
TheLivingBubba said:
After watching, I think the cops are guilty of failure to render aid, and the guy with the knee on the neck excessive force and failure to render aid. After the Floyd went unresponsive they should have done something, but I don't believe any of this was racial, and Floyd was sketch from the start.
Click to expand...

Floyd had so much Fentanyl in his system, he would have been dead even if he had never been pulled over to begin with. He was a dead man walking and nobody knew it until the coroner's report came out.

But the media, Bitter-Lying-Marxists and ANTIamericanFAcists were quick to react, like it was planned. It's a far stretch to say everyone involved is part of a conspiracy theory, it's a comparatively easier stretch for someone to drug Floyd up and send him out to get some cigarettes with a fake $20 bill.
 
MChat said:
Floyd had so much Fentanyl in his system, he would have been dead even if he had never been pulled over to begin with. He was a dead man walking and nobody knew it until the coroner's report came out.
Click to expand...

You're a fucking idiot
 
Even if he was a dead man walking the cops are on the hook with the knee to the neck.
 
Paragon said:
You're a fucking idiot
Click to expand...
Wow, you must be awesome at debating. Way to take my argument apart with facts and logic; you completely avoided the pitfall of an emotional outburst and name calling.

11 ng/ml according to the coroner's report; 450 ml of blood in the human body. 2mg is considered of fentanyl is considered a lethal dose. According to the article I read, that equates to the late Mr. Floyd having almost 2.5 times the lethal dose.
 
MChat said:
Wow, you must be awesome at debating. Way to take my argument apart with facts and logic; you completely avoided the pitfall of an emotional outburst and name calling.

11 ng/ml according to the coroner's report; 450 ml of blood in the human body. 2mg is considered of fentanyl is considered a lethal dose. According to the article I read, that equates to the late Mr. Floyd having almost 2.5 times the lethal dose.
Click to expand...

Yep, still a fucking idiot.
 
blood concentrations in postmortem specimens cannot be directly compared with in vivo serum levels: in our study, we observed that postmortem fentanyl blood concentrations were on average up to nine times higher than in vivo serum levels at the same dose.
Click to expand...
 
Paragon said:
Yep, still a fucking idiot.
Click to expand...

Such awesome debate skills! Your parents must be proud of your persuasive communications ability. Ever think about entering politics?


Paragon said:
blood concentrations in postmortem specimens cannot be directly compared with in vivo serum levels: in our study, we observed that postmortem fentanyl blood concentrations were on average up to nine times higher than in vivo serum levels at the same dose.
Click to expand...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22417834/
Click to expand...

Ah, finally! This is the first I've read about this, so it is reasonable to say that the Fentanyl alone wouldn't have killed him. However the combination of drugs found in his system, coupled with his medical history ("years-long, severe arteriosclerotic heart disease and had a clinical history of hypertension") it is also plausible he would have died even if he was sitting at home watching an exciting show on T.V.
 
Fentanyl is deadly as shit and with China making synthetic metric shit tons of it so much that in 2017 deaths related it jumped 1000%. It takes as little as 2-3 mg to possibly start respiratory failure. Again, not down playing the cops role, but the fentanyl certainly could have killed him at some point.
 
MChat said:
Ah, finally! This is the first I've read about this, so it is reasonable to say that the Fentanyl alone wouldn't have killed him. However the combination of drugs found in his system, coupled with his medical history ("years-long, severe arteriosclerotic heart disease and had a clinical history of hypertension") it is also plausible he would have died even if he was sitting at home watching an exciting show on T.V.
Click to expand...

Paragon's study is only one study.

This is a long artcile, and an interesting read. The conclusion on it is that you can't reliable correlate the postmortem concentrations when trying to determine an overdose death. Now, this is also centered around transdermal patches (the ones you stick on your skin), and the delivery method of the narcotic may also influence the results.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3576505/



"Results
The manners of death included 40 accidents, 36 natural, 8 suicides, 5 therapeutic complications, and 3 undetermined deaths. Among the accidental fentanyl intoxication deaths, 32 of 37 involved substance abuse. The majority (95 %) of the 37 accidental deaths involving fentanyl were multi-drug intoxications. The substance abuse deaths had a mean fentanyl blood concentration (26.4 ng/ml or μg/L) that was over twice that of the natural group (11.8 ng/ml). Our analysis suggests a relationship between total patch dosage and mean postmortem fentanyl concentration up to the 100-μg/h dose."


"Conclusions
The very wide and overlapping ranges of postmortem fentanyl concentrations effectively nullify the utility of correlating the dose and expected postmortem concentration for any particular death. Based on the variable relationship between dose and blood concentration, the antemortem dose cannot be reliably predicted based on the postmortem concentration. This does not, however, render the medical examiner/coroner unable to determine the cause and manner of death because the toxicology results are only one datum point among several that are considered. Although there was a weakly positive relationship between body mass index and fentanyl concentration, further research is needed to determine whether adipose tissue represents a significant depot for postmortem release of fentanyl."


I would say the blood results neither confirm nor exclude overdose being a significant factor in death. That multi-drug intoxications tend to be present in the majority of fatal substance abuse overdoses may be of significance, as he had methanphetamine in his system too, or it may be of no consequence as your run of the mill addict tends to do a lot of different drugs.

That said, he may well have had enough fentanyl in his system to significantly suppress his respiratory system so that he would be unable to survive any scenario where his breathing was otherwise inhibited. Or he may not have been able to survive as he had underlying respiratory/cardiac problems.
 
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This is also an interesting comment, sources not cited so I'll have to try to find some, but it's consistent with what sources have indicated.

"George Floyd was a big guy. The report says he was 6 feet, 4 inches tall, but other sources say 6 feet 6 inches. He was 223 pounds. Either way, he wasn’t obese by body mass index, and he was close to his ideal body weight, which is calculated from his height. So he likely didn’t have a lot of excess fat tissue on him.
This brings us to an idea called Lipophilicity. Lipo meaning fat and phlilc meaning affinity for. Fentanyl is lipophilic, meaning it dissolves in fat. What does that mean?
Within 5 minutes of entering the bloodstream, 80% of the fentanyl dose leaves the blood and enters the organs. After this, the fentanyl will distribute from the organs, into fat tissue, where it slowly releases back into the blood. If George Floyd wasn’t obese, then he might not have as much fat tissue holding on to the fentanyl. This could mean he’d have a higher level in his blood compared to someone who has more fat tissue.
One study that looks back at 500 fatal fentanyl overdoses in 2016 New Hampshire shows fentanyl levels in the blood had a range from 0.75 to 113 ng / mL with an average of 10. That’s a wide range.
Other studies have shown a higher average of around 18 ng / mL. Keep in mind that’s the average. I saw some people confuse mean, which is the average, with median. They’re different values. And also, you’re going to see ranges.
This is retrospective data. It’s looking back in time. You cant control for all variables, all other things equal. So it’s subject to selection bias.
You’re not wrong if you say the level is elevated and within range of some of these studies, but you’re also not looking at the video evidence— that George Floyd wasn’t nodding off on fentanyl.
Some of these studies didn’t divide up the data to account for, body weight, obesity, which would affect how fentanyl is distributed in the body.
Remember, it’s lipophilic They didn’t account for male or female(*some did account for this but a reported mean in Results section of these studies are all-comers), men have more water in their body as a percentage than women.
Elderly generally have higher bodyfat percent than the young on average.
Did the study divide the data based on kidney function, which decreases as you get older. Kidneys are important for urinating out the breakdown products of drugs.
Liver function can also get worse if you have prior disease. Patients who have opioid use disorder are at risk of hepatitis because of things like needle sharing might happen. And the liver is what breaks down fentanyl.
So without controlling for these, you may get a wide range of levels IN the study, and BETWEEN studies.
Where did they pull the sample? And when did they pull the sample? If it was a long time after the overdose, and the person had a lot of fat tissue on them, these are details that may change the measurements from one person to another."

Again, I don't think we can reliably say if he did or didn't overdose. Paragon presents a study saying he couldn't have, but the study only states that by comparing people who are living/dead and have transdermal patches on them the results are about 9X higher concentrations in the dead people. However, if we just compare the fentanyl concentrations of people who have died from overdose, which were obviously taken postmortem, George Floyd's concentration is well within the range, and in fact is close to the average found in some studies of people who died of a fentanyl overdose.
 
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Scott Cee aka 2drx4 said:
This is also an interesting comment, sources not cited so I'll have to try to find some, but it's consistent with what sources have indicated.

"George Floyd was a big guy. The report says he was 6 feet, 4 inches tall, but other sources say 6 feet 6 inches. He was 223 pounds. Either way, he wasn’t obese by body mass index, and he was close to his ideal body weight, which is calculated from his height. So he likely didn’t have a lot of excess fat tissue on him.
This brings us to an idea called Lipophilicity. Lipo meaning fat and phlilc meaning affinity for. Fentanyl is lipophilic, meaning it dissolves in fat. What does that mean?
Within 5 minutes of entering the bloodstream, 80% of the fentanyl dose leaves the blood and enters the organs. After this, the fentanyl will distribute from the organs, into fat tissue, where it slowly releases back into the blood. If George Floyd wasn’t obese, then he might not have as much fat tissue holding on to the fentanyl. This could mean he’d have a higher level in his blood compared to someone who has more fat tissue.
One study that looks back at 500 fatal fentanyl overdoses in 2016 New Hampshire shows fentanyl levels in the blood had a range from 0.75 to 113 ng / mL with an average of 10. That’s a wide range.
Other studies have shown a higher average of around 18 ng / mL. Keep in mind that’s the average. I saw some people confuse mean, which is the average, with median. They’re different values. And also, you’re going to see ranges.
This is retrospective data. It’s looking back in time. You cant control for all variables, all other things equal. So it’s subject to selection bias.
You’re not wrong if you say the level is elevated and within range of some of these studies, but you’re also not looking at the video evidence— that George Floyd wasn’t nodding off on fentanyl.
Some of these studies didn’t divide up the data to account for, body weight, obesity, which would affect how fentanyl is distributed in the body.
Remember, it’s lipophilic They didn’t account for male or female(*some did account for this but a reported mean in Results section of these studies are all-comers), men have more water in their body as a percentage than women.
Elderly generally have higher bodyfat percent than the young on average.
Did the study divide the data based on kidney function, which decreases as you get older. Kidneys are important for urinating out the breakdown products of drugs.
Liver function can also get worse if you have prior disease. Patients who have opioid use disorder are at risk of hepatitis because of things like needle sharing might happen. And the liver is what breaks down fentanyl.
So without controlling for these, you may get a wide range of levels IN the study, and BETWEEN studies.
Where did they pull the sample? And when did they pull the sample? If it was a long time after the overdose, and the person had a lot of fat tissue on them, these are details that may change the measurements from one person to another."

Again, I don't think we can reliably say if he did or didn't overdose. Paragon presents a study saying he couldn't have, but the study only states that by comparing people who are living/dead and have transdermal patches on them the results are about 9X higher concentrations in the dead people. However, if we just compare the fentanyl concentrations of people who have died from overdose, which were obviously taken postmortem, George Floyd's concentration is well within the range, and in fact is close to the average found in some studies of people who died of a fentanyl overdose.
Click to expand...

Well, I guess the coroners’ reports mean aliens could have also killed him

experts have debunked the myth about the drugs, keep harping on it if it makes you feel better about being a racist
 
The we have a long and well cited study that concludes that fentanyl does not change significantly in concentration postmortem, basically the opposite of what Paragon's study found.

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...stmortem-Fentanyl-Concentrations-A-Review.pdf

"Conclusion
Fentanyl is a potent opioid widely prescribed for the relief of
pain and is subject to abuse, whether intended or not. The drug is
highly litigated because of its association with death, either as the
sole cause or as a contributing factor, of many opioid users. Although
fentanyl has a Vd of 3 to 8 and is a basic compound, in postmortem
cases when it has undergone complete distribution, the drug exhibits
minimal PMR. Central to peripheral blood fentanyl ratios of about
one demonstrate minimal tendency towards PMR. This fentanyl ratio
was confirmed with a nine year study from the Los Angeles County
Coroner (166 cases; average C/P ratio 1.2), as well as a smaller study
from the San Diego Medical Examiner (18 cases; average C/P ratio
0.95). Moreover, consideration of the fentanyl liver to peripheral blood
ratio corroborates the lack of fentanyl distribution or PMR. The Los
Angeles County Coroner and the San Diego Medical Examiner data
(combined total of 103 cases) revealed L/P ratios that averaged 6.5 and
6.9, respectively; thus supporting the average literature L/P ratio of 5.
In view of the premise that drugs with an L/P ratio less than 5 have
no propensity towards PMR, these new data sustain the conclusion
that fentanyl is indicative of a compound with only minimal potential
for PMR. Overall, many literary sources have been independently
evaluated, and additional laboratory scientific data has been presented,
all in context with concepts of PMR."

PMR = Postmortem redistribution, basically how much the concentration changes.

So, I'd still say inconclusive. But very plausible. We should look at his behaviour and symptoms and see if they are typical of overdose.
 
Paragon said:
Well, I guess the coroners’ reports mean aliens could have also killed him

experts have debunked the myth about the drugs, keep harping on it if it makes you feel better about being a racist
Click to expand...

Exactly what part of that post gives you the impression it/he is racist?
 
Paragon said:
Well, I guess the coroners’ reports mean aliens could have also killed him

experts have debunked the myth about the drugs, keep harping on it if it makes you feel better about being a racist
Click to expand...

Again, I do not have a valid link to the coroner's report, and have asked for one multiple times.

But I can see you don't like my answers and research and have resorted to name calling to make you feel better about it.
 
Scott Cee aka 2drx4 said:
Again, I do not have a valid link to the coroner's report, and have asked for one multiple times.

But I can see you don't like my answers and research and have resorted to name calling to make you feel better about it.
Click to expand...

I just love the idea that you are spending so much time attempting to validate something already invalidated by numerous experts because you think it is more likely that it was simply coincidence that some dude was kneeling on his neck and there's no way that caused his death, it's because "Floyd had so much Fentanyl in his system, he would have been dead even if he had never been pulled over to begin with"

You must think others are as fucking dumb as you are if you can google for your "research" but can't even find the coroner's report so that you can provide it your expert hypothesis
 
Paragon said:
I just love the idea that you are spending so much time attempting to validate something already invalidated by numerous experts because you think it is more likely that it was simply coincidence that some dude was kneeling on his neck and there's no way that caused his death, it's because "Floyd had so much Fentanyl in his system, he would have been dead even if he had never been pulled over to begin with"

You must think others are as fucking dumb as you are if you can google for your "research" but can't even find the coroner's report so that you can provide it your expert hypothesis
Click to expand...

This link: https://www.hennepin.us/-/media/hen...-safety/documents/Autopsy_2020-3700_Floyd.pdf

Is the link that comes up over and over. I may be region locked, or I may have a problem because this is a trashsat connection, but I can't open it.

So, you automatically trust a single expert's results without analyzing the data yourself? Is it not possible for people to make errors in their analysis or conclusion?

Keep calling me names, it affirms that your argument is very weak.
 
Paragon said:
wait.... is a person supposed to be only limiting their opinion via the scope of just singular post?

or does reading comprehension elude you?
Click to expand...

Reach back...grab a handful and give them a yank. I just asked a question. :flipoff2:
 
Slander said:
Its a bullshit situation either way! Bullshit the cops came for a fake $20 and even more bullshit if was a real $20!
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Not sure if I agree with you if it was fake. Where there is one fake $20 there could be hundreds being dumped for any reason from theft to an attempt to undermine our currency. I'm still curious on whether it has been established that he was attempting to break the law. If it was real my I would have more sympathy for him. As I have stated here before- No one should die as a result of being taken into custody. Once the cuffs are on the authorities should be held to a very high standard. It is part of our social contract.

Not all laws are good laws. For example laws like the one Eric Garner ran afoul of for selling "loosies" seems pretty weak. The tax is already paid on them... unless they are coming into NYC untaxed from out of State. Still doesn't mean you should fight with cops. Fight the charge with the Judge. THey are less likely to put you in a choke hold.
 
Johann said:
Not sure if I agree with you if it was fake. Where there is one fake $20 there could be hundreds being dumped for any reason from theft to an attempt to undermine our currency. I'm still curious on whether it has been established that he was attempting to break the law. If it was real my I would have more sympathy for him. As I have stated here before- No one should die as a result of being taken into custody. Once the cuffs are on the authorities should be held to a very high standard. It is part of our social contract.

Not all laws are good laws. For example laws like the one Eric Garner ran afoul of for selling "loosies" seems pretty weak. The tax is already paid on them... unless they are coming into NYC untaxed from out of State. Still doesn't mean you should fight with cops. Fight the charge with the Judge. THey are less likely to put you in a choke hold.
Click to expand...

What I am saying is, it would be very easy to accidently get a fake $20, and very hard to prove it was actually yours, that you made. Im sure most people have handled fake money and not even known it, are we all criminals now? And in any case that should not be an arrest able offense, especially with only A 20. I would be freaking the fuck out as well if I was being cuffed and taken into custody for that shit. Now if he had an entire printing operation that they raided and shit went sideways, eh ok...

I agree with you, Most laws are bad stupid laws! The amounts of pirates and so called conservatives totally cool with people dieing at the hands of cops over stupid shit boggles my mind. I also believe these bad laws are one of the root causes of all this police dumbassery.
 
Scott Cee aka 2drx4 said:
I would say the blood results neither confirm nor exclude overdose being a significant factor in death. That multi-drug intoxications tend to be present in the majority of fatal substance abuse overdoses may be of significance, as he had methanphetamine in his system too, or it may be of no consequence as your run of the mill addict tends to do a lot of different drugs.

That said, he may well have had enough fentanyl in his system to significantly suppress his respiratory system so that he would be unable to survive any scenario where his breathing was otherwise inhibited. Or he may not have been able to survive as he had underlying respiratory/cardiac problems.
Click to expand...

This is the conclusion of literally everyone on the internet including all of us in the first couple pages of this thread and at least one other thread.
 
Paragon said:
experts have debunked the myth about the drugs, keep harping on it if it makes you feel better about being a racist
Click to expand...

Nope. The studies from well before the incident took place indicate fatality at low as, variously 9, 7, and 3 ng/mL, and all 3 studies indicate coincidence with other drugs. Floyd had 11 ng/mL.

Experts also refuted the Autopsy. That is political and will be considered as such by everyone involved, Judge, possible Jury, Prosecutor, and Defense.
 
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