Gearing opinions

[JR4X]

767 19 spline to 1350 30 spline isn't an upgrade?

You mean 760x?

The stub shaft itself is still the weak spot. The ears that wrap around the joint caps fail leaving you exact same problem an old truck 44 leaves you. The stub shaft is broken before the u-joint itself. A bombed shaft knocks the knuckles apart at the ball joints tearing apart everything else, brake line steering tre’s etc

The TJ unit bearings are weak compared to the spindle. The TJ housing and inner C are weak and bend way easier than a truck 44. TJ axles are too narrow.

Edit: you got that in, while I was basically agreeing with you. But the TJ/LJ front axle isn’t better or worse, they both suck. Same suck even. But don’t you try to tell us that a minitruck axle would have been a better choice in there than that junk 44 either. I bet I still have pictures of a Toyota from the con that let the knuckle go just like that. Birf broke first and jacked up the inner ball. It then sheared the 4 studs that hold the kingpin top cap/steering arm off and let go of the whole thing.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

You mean 760x?

The stub shaft itself is still the weak spot. The ears that wrap around the joint caps fail leaving you exact same problem an old truck 44 leaves you. The stub shaft is broken before the u-joint itself. A bombed shaft knocks the knuckles apart at the ball joints tearing apart everything else, brake line steering tre’s etc

The TJ unit bearings are weak compared to the spindle. The TJ housing and inner C are weak and bend way easier than a truck 44. TJ axles are too narrow.

Edit: you got that in, while I was basically agreeing with you. But the TJ/LJ front axle isn’t better or worse, they both suck. Same suck even. But don’t you try to tell us that a minitruck axle would have been a better choice in there than that junk 44 either. I bet I still have pictures of a Toyota from the con that let the knuckle go just like that. Birf broke first and jacked up the inner ball. It then sheared the 4 studs that hold the kingpin top cap/steering arm off and let go of the whole thing.

Not that this is the place, but more or less I agree.

I still think the tj d44 is better over all. At least the parts seem to match up better. The old stuff has a beefy housing, with nothing to back it up.

Yes I've seen mini trucks break studs, but if you're not an idiot, you can easily prevent the tire falling off. Also, there is also 3 or 4 ways to upgrade that weak point. I'd take a Toyota axle over an old D44 all day. At least you just bend a housing or break a r&p instead of the tire falling off

I'd also build a TJ D30 before a Toyota axle these days

 

[arse_sidewards]

The desert bronco and F150 guys use 35s as the rule of thumb for max tire size that can be made to live with minimal expense and their rigs are far from light.

The Chevy squarebody guys have similar rules of thumb for tire size and their rigs are also far from light.

An XJ on 37s will be more than fine.

But he has a D60 that he's gonna use so he should just gear that to match the 8.8.

 

[Sean]

Not that this is the place, but more or less I agree.

I still think the tj d44 is better over all. At least the parts seem to match up better. The old stuff has a beefy housing, with nothing to back it up.

Yes I've seen mini trucks break studs, but if you're not an idiot, you can easily prevent the tire falling off. Also, there is also 3 or 4 ways to upgrade that weak point. I'd take a Toyota axle over an old D44 all day. At least you just bend a housing or break a r&p instead of the tire falling off

I'd also build a TJ D30 before a Toyota axle these days

Guess I was extremely lucky. Ran a Chevy LP D44 cut down on the long side to take a Ford D44 IIRC inner shaft. I had my non-greaseable Spicer joints tig'd to the ears...two short welds on each cap. Was running 38x12.5-15 SXs...which were really only 37s. Ended up only breaking one shaft...and it sheared off at the 30 spline portion going into the ARB like it'd been put in a chop saw. To be fair, I was doing something stupid and in spite of the spotter telling me to bring it forward, I could tell it was going to break. Later on, I did wear out a pair of ujoint needle bearings like this and replaced both entire shaft assemblies when I noticed it. I was wheeling pretty much every weekend both days for a few years like this...but, that was back when a 4 rated trail on a 1-5 rating system was considered hard; early 2000s.

I went the mini-truck route before the D44. A wise respected friend told me I didn't need 60s under a light 4 cyl Toyota and so I went D44s. The D44s broke FAR LESS than the Toyota birfields....and I had Marfields in it. Ruined a housing when a birf exploded in the closed knuckle and wrecked the bearing areas inside the knuckle. IMO, the biggest drawback on the closed knuckle is the leaking grease and the PITA/nasty job of getting in there to fix a broken birf.

D44 balljoints did suck though. For a trail only rig....they were fine. But driving on the street with an aggressive beadlocked tire and it ate balljoints in short order...death wobble galore.

JME though.......

In short though...the old D44s IMO, are far better than the thin housing, unit bearing garbage they put in the JKs. Though anytime anyone is talking axle swaps....there is NO REASON to go anything less than tons if you're going to wheel it with a larger than 35" tire IMO.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I don't know, I had 4 guys in our wheelin group build D44s. 3 Toyotas and 1 samurai. Either 36 or 39 iroks(I know, hur dur 40s, but iroks are super light and not much grip) . None of them could keep them together at all. The same time, another buddy put 30 spline longs in his Toyota and drove worse than the other guys. He drove like an absolute idiot and rarely broke anything in the front end.

 

[JR4X]

My dad has a stock 05 unlimited sport he still runs 33’s on. D30/D44 combo open/open. We keep naively thinking that we’ll be able to find some rubicon take outs for it. The only reasons to do that are-bolt in-lockers-4.10 gears-should be cheap. We have built rigs, no need to go crazy with this trail rig.

I can build and install SD axles for less than those junky Rubicon axles sell for. I literally have 1 ton axles falling out of my ass so it makes no sense to pay rubicon axle money for the trash that they are. But it also doesn’t make sense to put SD axles in this thing for 33’s.

 

['84 Bronco II]

767 19 spline to 1350 30 spline isn't an upgrade?

Wrong, the TJ 44s are still the same 760X U-Joint, they have the weak 2.5" OD x .25" wall tubes, and they are low pinion The only advantage they have is the 30 spline stub, but you can put a 30 spline stub in a legacy Dana 44 as well (RCV axles are 30 spline outers, Nitro sells 30 spline outers as well)

This is what I picture when I picture a live spindle D44 on anything but a very light rig with 35s. Seen it too many times.



Break the tiny little joint, then it takes out the ball joints

So back at ya

Not all ball joints are created equal, but the same thing can and does happen with Ball joint Dana 60s. You can do a ball joint delete on a Dana 44 too.

You mean 760x?

The stub shaft itself is still the weak spot. The ears that wrap around the joint caps fail leaving you exact same problem an old truck 44 leaves you. The stub shaft is broken before the u-joint itself. A bombed shaft knocks the knuckles apart at the ball joints tearing apart everything else, brake line steering tre’s etc

The TJ unit bearings are weak compared to the spindle. The TJ housing and inner C are weak and bend way easier than a truck 44. TJ axles are too narrow.

Edit: you got that in, while I was basically agreeing with you. But the TJ/LJ front axle isn’t better or worse, they both suck. Same suck even. But don’t you try to tell us that a minitruck axle would have been a better choice in there than that junk 44 either. I bet I still have pictures of a Toyota from the con that let the knuckle go just like that. Birf broke first and jacked up the inner ball. It then sheared the 4 studs that hold the kingpin top cap/steering arm off and let go of the whole thing.

Truth here. The stub may be 30 spline, but it is a lot shorter with a bigger stress riser, so it's more susceptable to shock loading.

Not that this is the place, but more or less I agree.

I still think the tj d44 is better over all. At least the parts seem to match up better. The old stuff has a beefy housing, with nothing to back it up.

Yes I've seen mini trucks break studs, but if you're not an idiot, you can easily prevent the tire falling off. Also, there is also 3 or 4 ways to upgrade that weak point. I'd take a Toyota axle over an old D44 all day. At least you just bend a housing or break a r&p instead of the tire falling off

I'd also build a TJ D30 before a Toyota axle these days

As pointed out, the only advantage it has is the 30 spline outers from the factory. I'd rather have high pinion and stronger housing personally.

 

[Sean]

I don't know, I had 4 guys in our wheelin group build D44s. 3 Toyotas and 1 samurai. Either 36 or 39 iroks(I know, hur dur 40s, but iroks are super light and not much grip) . None of them could keep them together at all. The same time, another buddy put 30 spline longs in his Toyota and drove worse than the other guys. He drove like an absolute idiot and rarely broke anything in the front end.

I was careful and geared 227:1 with 5.38s in the D44s. I was running 206:1 with the Toyota stuff w 4.88s. Broke way more with the Toyota stuff and my driving style didn't change. If you just look at the weight ratings and size of components, the D44 is a stronger axle in just about every conceivable way.

I knew a guy with a lifted but otherwise stock '82 Toyota with the carb'd engine...open diffs and 35s. Moab local. Made it up Rocker Knocker on Pritchett while absolutely flogging the living shit out of the truck to do it. While the rest of our group crawled it in a few tries at most...he spent a good 15-20 minutes there...finally made it and didn't break. Sometimes, less is more. Try that same sort of thing with locked Toy axles and he'd have popped an axle likely in his first few attempts but to be fair, a locked pair of D44s beat on like that would have likely broken too.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Not talking stock shafts.

You can fit 1350 shafts in the UB stuff, not in the spindle 44.

Whixh means the rcv's are way bigger. The rcv's for a spindle 44 are smaller than a Toyota birf

 

[Sean]

Not talking stock shafts.

You can fit 1350 shafts in the UB stuff, not in the spindle 44.

Whixh means the rcv's are way bigger. The rcv's for a spindle 44 are smaller than a Toyota birf

If you want to polish turds with RCVs or CTMS...by all means, go for it. Seems like throwing good money after bad to me (speaking from experience here). When one reaches a point they are spending thousands on shafts/joints, to me personally....that money is better spent at a good yard finding Tons. YMMV of course.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

I was careful and geared 227:1 with 5.38s in the D44s. I was running 206:1 with the Toyota stuff w 4.88s. Broke way more with the Toyota stuff and my driving style didn't change. If you just look at the weight ratings and size of components, the D44 is a stronger axle in just about every conceivable way.

I knew a guy with a lifted but otherwise stock '82 Toyota with the carb'd engine...open diffs and 35s. Moab local. Made it up Rocker Knocker on Pritchett while absolutely flogging the living shit out of the truck to do it. While the rest of our group crawled it in a few tries at most...he spent a good 15-20 minutes there...finally made it and didn't break. Sometimes, less is more. Try that same sort of thing with locked Toy axles and he'd have popped an axle likely in his first few attempts but to be fair, a locked pair of D44s beat on like that would have likely broken too.

Shafts were always the weak point for our wheelin out here. 30 spline long fields fixed that, while there was no real solution for the old D44s.

Either way, we all agree they all suck unless it's a tiny samurai or cj5 on 35s or less.

I still think the TJ and JK stuff isn't bad if expectations are realistic, which does also apply to the old 44s and Toyota stuff as well. I just like that at least the newer shit has good aftermarket support and used parts are dime a dozen. I think picking up a built TJ or jk axle for cheap is far better money spent than the older stuff.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

If you want to polish turds with RCVs or CTMS...by all means, go for it. Seems like throwing good money after bad to me (speaking from experience here). When one reaches a point they are spending thousands on shafts/joints, to me personally....that money is better spent at a good yard finding Tons. YMMV of course.

That's my point, it's a waste of time with 760 sized shit. Throw $800 rcv's in a Toyota axle or $1400 in a TJ axle and you're 99% not breaking them.

It just depends on use. Not every rig needs tons. Like op, 37s and takes it out a hand full of times a year. Rcv's could be installed in a few hours and probably solve all his problems for a long time.

 

[Sean]

Shafts were always the weak point for our wheelin out here. 30 spline long fields fixed that, while there was no real solution for the old D44s.

Either way, we all agree they all suck unless it's a tiny samurai or cj5 on 35s or less.

I still think the TJ and JK stuff isn't bad if expectations are realistic, which does also apply to the old 44s and Toyota stuff as well. I just like that at least the newer shit has good aftermarket support and used parts are dime a dozen. I think picking up a built TJ or jk axle for cheap is far better money spent than the older stuff.

Superiors. Warns, Alloy USA, etc. and CTMs were the fix way back then...but again...goes right back to turd polishing.

Honestly, I wasn't unhappy with my 37s and stock shafts/tig'd joints....for that light weight rig, it worked great and was inexpensive.

As for cheap axles...I dunno...seems what car-part.com has done to the bone yard market has made it all a wash. Might as well shop around for a good front '05+ SD60 for $550 and a rear 14B for like $300ish (Less if you can find marketplace, CL, offer up deals). I've been pleasantly shocked recently finding a few yards selling decent axles at more affordable prices ($300 for a newer D70 or 14B; $550 for 05+ SD60s) around here....which has been unusual for 1T stuff...but I think rockcrawling is largely dying at this point as people move to SXSs. Probably explains why demand may be down.

 

[Sean]

That's my point, it's a waste of time with 760 sized shit. Throw $800 rcv's in a Toyota axle or $1400 in a TJ axle and you're 99% not breaking them.

It just depends on use. Not every rig needs tons. Like op, 37s and takes it out a hand full of times a year. Rcv's could be installed in a few hours and probably solve all his problems for a long time.

Agreed. Everything 'depends'...but if I'm spending the money....it's always cheaper to do it right the first time than to do it wrong once, then right. Right or wrong will be determined by whether or not it breaks....but in my own experience, Murphy and that fucked up law of his rarely rest.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Superiors. Warns, Alloy USA, etc. and CTMs were the fix way back then...but again...goes right back to turd polishing.

But not on a D44, they'd all break the ears off.

Honestly, I wasn't unhappy with my 37s and stock shafts/tig'd joints....for that light weight rig, it worked great and was inexpensive.

As for cheap axles...I dunno...seems what car-part.com has done to the bone yard market has made it all a wash. Might as well shop around for a good front '05+ SD60 for $550 and a rear 14B for like $300ish (Less if you can find marketplace, CL, offer up deals). I've been pleasantly shocked recently finding a few yards selling decent axles at more affordable prices ($300 for a newer D70 or 14B; $550 for 05+ SD60s) around here....which has been unusual for 1T stuff...but I think rockcrawling is largely dying at this point as people move to SXSs. Probably explains why demand may be down.

Maybe it's different in different regions. But say nor cal has a lot of trails where it's nice to have a street able rig and 37s will get through most any trail if you're not chasing the buggy lines. So a TJ or tacoma on 37s is a fucked spot because 05+ axles are heavy and wide, not good for 37s. So then you're on 40-42s, possibly getting hassled for tire coverage, low on power going up over 6k feet, ect. Where like a set of axles with 1350 rcv's and some trusses will work just fine if you're aren't trying to rock bounce or trying to bring along a house full of gear.

I also totally see what you're saying. I went down the same path with my first 4runner, rcv FJ80 axle and 37s worked great, but ended up chipping the r&p and bending a housing. I almost ordered a 9" center with FJ80 outters from diamond, but sold it for a GM60 for all the same reasons.

 

[Sean]

But not on a D44, they'd all break the ears off.



Maybe it's different in different regions. But say nor cal has a lot of trails where it's nice to have a street able rig and 37s will get through most any trail if you're not chasing the buggy lines. So a TJ or tacoma on 37s is a fucked spot because 05+ axles are heavy and wide, not good for 37s. So then you're on 40-42s, possibly getting hassled for tire coverage, low on power going up over 6k feet, ect. Where like a set of axles with 1350 rcv's and some trusses will work just fine if you're aren't trying to rock bounce or trying to bring along a house full of gear.

I also totally see what you're saying. I went down the same path with my first 4runner, rcv FJ80 axle and 37s worked great, but ended up chipping the r&p and bending a housing. I almost ordered a 9" center with FJ80 outters from diamond, but sold it for a GM60 for all the same reasons.

No, on D44s. There were 4340 and 300M versions and they generally would take massive abuse before breaking ears...and often had lifetime warranties. But again, it all ended up being turd polishing when they should have just gone to 1 ton sized joints/ears.

Definitely locale dependent...we don't have nanny state government laws about tire coverage in AZ yet (it's coming I'm sure as all the Cali fucks moved here and will bring the same policies they fled for some asinine reason)..but I get your point and it's valid provided one already has the smaller axles under the rig and has maybe already invested in gears/lockers.

 

[JR4X]

But not on a D44, they'd all break the ears off.

Circa 2005 ish when my buddies I all thought we were hard core with our turd polished D44’s and Minitruck axles. At the end before we all went one tons. Us D44 guys would break axle shafts every time, and the Minitruck guys would break ring&pinions every time we went out.

Most the guys went with junkyard axles KP D60/14B. I skipped junkyard 60’s and went straight to the aftermarket stuff.

 

[Sean]

Circa 2005 ish when my buddies I all thought we were hard core with our turd polished D44’s and Minitruck axles. At the end before we all went one tons. Us D44 guys would break axle shafts every time, and the Minitruck guys would break ring&pinions every time we went out.

Most the guys went with junkyard axles KP D60/14B. I skipped junkyard 60’s and went straight to the aftermarket stuff.

And honestly, the fabbed housing 9's with 1T outers/shafts make the most sense now...provided you can either pony up for the HP GW or Hi9 stuff or live with the low pinions.

Boneyard Tons are still viable for us poors.

 

[JR4X]

And honestly, the fabbed housing 9's with 1T outers/shafts make the most sense now...provided you can either pony up for the HP GW or Hi9 stuff or live with the low pinions.

Boneyard Tons are still viable for us poors.

I’m still the poors despite what it looks like. I’m just irresponsible with my future.

 

[Sean]

I’m still the poors despite what it looks like. I’m just irresponsible with my future.

You and me both, lol.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

Circa 2005 ish when my buddies I all thought we were hard core with our turd polished D44’s and Minitruck axles. At the end before we all went one tons. Us D44 guys would break axle shafts every time, and the Minitruck guys would break ring&pinions every time we went out.

Most the guys went with junkyard axles KP D60/14B. I skipped junkyard 60’s and went straight to the aftermarket stuff.

The r&p thing is possible to over come, but ya, it's more turd polishing. The 8" shit is totally dependent on a perfect set up. An 8" hp ARB 3rd is stronger than the 30 spline chromos.

Funny enough, if you want to argue Toyota 8" center vs D44 outters. 3 guys in our group actually bought the Toyota center D44 outter hybrids. this was right before Bobby released the 30 spline chromo birfs. Want to guess what the weak point was? All were hp 3rds with full carrier lockers, and all broke lots of shafts and lost knuckles off at least once. Only 3rd I remember was 1 guy winching someone down below, tried to back up, tires gripped enough for the back end to come off the ground, he laughed did it again and blew the front r&p (hp in reverse )

The both fell victim to "one upgrade at a time" then it's still not enough after you unknowingly spent built fab 9" money on a Toyota or D44.

I may eat my words, but if I upgrade the axle in my samurai, I'm learning hard towards TJ/XJ/ect D30s outters with maybe a 9" center (because why do anything else if building a housing). At least they're free to attain vs the old D44s and Toyotas being pretty expensive now a days. This is also (eventually) ~100hp, 2500lbs and sxs 35x10s. 1 tons are not even a consideration.

 

[Sean]

The r&p thing is possible to over come, but ya, it's more turd polishing. The 8" shit is totally dependent on a perfect set up. An 8" hp ARB 3rd is stronger than the 30 spline chromos.

Funny enough, if you want to argue Toyota 8" center vs D44 outters. 3 guys in our group actually bought the Toyota center D44 outter hybrids. this was right before Bobby released the 30 spline chromo birfs. Want to guess what the weak point was? All were hp 3rds with full carrier lockers, and all broke lots of shafts and lost knuckles off at least once. Only 3rd I remember was 1 guy winching someone down below, tried to back up, tires gripped enough for the back end to come off the ground, he laughed did it again and blew the front r&p (hp in reverse )

The both fell victim to "one upgrade at a time" then it's still not enough after you unknowingly spent built fab 9" money on a Toyota or D44.

I may eat my words, but if I upgrade the axle in my samurai, I'm learning hard towards TJ/XJ/ect D30s outters with maybe a 9" center (because why do anything else if building a housing). At least they're free to attain vs the old D44s and Toyotas being pretty expensive now a days. This is also (eventually) ~100hp, 2500lbs and sxs 35x10s. 1 tons are not even a consideration.

It is kind of odd to see so many of the portal guys having to replace Toy 8" R&Ps every year or two on their cars. I get that it's to save weight and keep it small, but fuck...I'd be tired of having to change them that often (if they wheel a lot) and would go 9".

 

[JR4X]

It is kind of odd to see so many of the portal guys having to replace Toy 8" R&Ps every year or two on their cars. I get that it's to save weight and keep it small, but fuck...I'd be tired of having to change them that often (if they wheel a lot) and would go 9".

I don’t know what to tell YotaAtieToo. Those are my Friends you see doing that. The last 3 years in a row someone has come to Farmington for the W.E.Rock comp crawl that’s coming up next month. Break a Toyota 3rd in an unlimited portal car. Then people start calling me and my brother and tagging us on FB to see if we can bail them out. Sorry dudes, years of having abandoned that half ass platform long ago and bailing people out, that stuff is all gone. Portal guys blowing up those bull shit little Toy 3rds still.

 

[mobil1syn]

It is kind of odd to see so many of the portal guys having to replace Toy 8" R&Ps every year or two on their cars. I get that it's to save weight and keep it small, but fuck...I'd be tired of having to change them that often (if they wheel a lot) and would go 9".

selectable lockers for the 9" will need to be replaced at a greater frequency than toyota third members.

 

[Sean]

selectable lockers for the 9" will need to be replaced at a greater frequency than toyota third members.

Think so? I have my doubts if you don't crash lock them or if you spend the $2500 on the 'race' version.

 

[Sean]

I don’t know what to tell YotaAtieToo. Those are my Friends you see doing that. The last 3 years in a row someone has come to Farmington for the W.E.Rock comp crawl that’s coming up next month. Break a Toyota 3rd in an unlimited portal car. Then people start calling me and my brother and tagging us on FB to see if we can bail them out. Sorry dudes, years of having abandoned that half ass platform long ago and bailing people out, that stuff is all gone. Portal guys blowing up those bull shit little Toy 3rds still.

That's where I'm at...which is why I went 9" on the axles I got for the portals.

As an aside about the ARB 9" issues....looked into that European competitor Bebop talked about....site is up but they are backordered on lockers. Asked for an ETA on when they might be available....crickets. I'll see if I can find the name of the company again.

 

[Sean]

Here is it....

35 spline version of the Atom9 Air Locker Selectable Locker:

ATOM9 – for 9″/10″ gear – 35spline Chromoly Locker

All prices are ex 21% VAT Special designed for all aftermarket 9

www.atom-9.com

40 spline version:

ATOM9 – for 9″/10″ gear – 40spline Chromoly Locker

All prices are ex 21% VAT Special designed for all aftermarket 9

www.atom-9.com

Still says backorder available from February of 2022....so I'm guessing they aren't viable. Sent another email to ask.

EDIT** found a couple places that say they have them (or can get them)....no reply from the company itself though.

Atom 9 Ford 9", Front & Rear Diff Locker

Fits all type 9"-10" Ford 3rd members, front or rear. 3rd members with minimum 3.062" OD bearing carriers. Accepts any aftermarket 35

gigglepin4x4.net

Dif air locker ATOM Ford 9" 35 spline - wsroffroad.com

Dif air locker ATOM Ford 9" 35 spline

wsroffroad.com

 

[YotaAtieToo]

It is kind of odd to see so many of the portal guys having to replace Toy 8" R&Ps every year or two on their cars. I get that it's to save weight and keep it small, but fuck...I'd be tired of having to change them that often (if they wheel a lot) and would go 9".

Those guys are just pushing the limits, they may replace 9" r&p also.

Although I'd be curious how a 7.50(7.33?) 3rd with portals would work. Maybe there is a point of too much axle gearing?

 

[Sean]

Those guys are just pushing the limits, they may replace 9" r&p also.

Although I'd be curious how a 7.50(7.33?) 3rd with portals would work. Maybe there is a point of too much axle gearing?

Agreed. Something has to break...but...one can upgrade from 9" to 10" gears...and the big 35 spline over the small 28 spline pinion. I'm more interested in the 35 spline lockers than the 40 spline since you can't go to 1550 joints in the JHF portals and with 40 spl, I have a feeling you'd just be moving your weak link around. Feel the same way about 40 spline D60 parts with 1550 outers....just likely to break the R&P instead.

 

[JR4X]

Those guys are just pushing the limits, they may replace 9" r&p also.

Although I'd be curious how a 7.50(7.33?) 3rd with portals would work. Maybe there is a point of too much axle gearing?

14.5:1 axle gears?