full hydro steering for a street driven jeep

[klork]

Working on completely rebuilding my TJ into an LJ. I am currently stretching the frame right now but was thinking about steering. I have a 6.0 ls 4l80 and atlass 2 spd that I will be running. Ford sd 60 and 10.5 sterling. 3 link front and double triangulated 4 link in the back using brackets and trusses from artec. I have 37X13.5X17 BFG KM3 tires. I will be pushing the axle forward some and I know if I move it more then a couple inches the stock steering box will not work which from what I understand isnt too strong to begin with. How bad of idea is it to run full hydro in a jeep that will see lots of street driving and highway driving. I was planning on doing at least hydro assist and it would be a lot simpler to just do full hydro then hydro assist and make all the steering linkages and try not to get bump steer.

 

[woods]

For one, its not street legal I don't think. Perhaps that depends on location. Reason being is you lose all steering capabilities if your engine shuts off.

Second, the no return to neutral would throw me all off.

 

[jeepkevin]

When I did my 1 ton swap on my LJ, I kept the steering box that was ported for hydro assist and switched to a dual ended ram as my tie rod. I went with the 2.75" ram from PSC with their pump and was over all pretty happy. Kept me street legal and turned 42" pretty good. If I were to do it again, I might drop back to a 2.5" ram. The only time I noticed slow or sluggish steering was when I would whip into a parking place, realize I didn't quite make the turn, throw it into reverse and cut the wheel opposite to back up a bit. Right there I could sometimes turn quicker than the ram would allow. If I waited a split second, I could turn and pull in. I figured I was asking max pressure/volumn while at idle where as on the trails I might be carrying some rpm.

I did eventually go full hydro, replaced steering box and put orbital in same spot. I dialed in appx 8 degrees of castor. I did drive ok on street, was really twitchy at higher speeds. Would not consider it overall to be that safe to drive. I kept the vehicle registered and passed inspection each year and pretty much only drove to edge of neighborhood to gas station. We did go to Moab and Colorado several times but I always tried to stay on side roads and keep the speed down.

I would not recommend doing full hydro for street and daily driver duty. I did not feel comfortable at speed.

 

[klork]

I was figuring that was going to be the answer I got but figured I would ask.

 

['84 Bronco II]

For one, its not street legal I don't think. Perhaps that depends on location. Reason being is you lose all steering capabilities if your engine shuts off.

Second, the no return to neutral would throw me all off.

Bullshit. Please show me a statute anywhere that says that, or better yet, proof of someone actually being cited for it.


As for the OP, it all depends on how you put the system together. It is really important that you match your components to get you what you want. I have driven full hydraulic steering on some of my buddies buggies with no issues at all at speed. I highly recommend reading the Billavista article on the subject: http://www.billavista.com/tech/Artic...ble/index.html

The system that JR4X put together for his 4500 cars seems pretty sweet, but people seem to be having lots of issues when the components aren't perfectly matched or there is slop anywhere in the system. It maintains the mechanical connection and feedback of an assist system, but with the power of a full hydraulic system and keeps all the stress off the steering box.

 

[woods]

Bullshit. Please show me a statute anywhere that says that, or better yet, proof of someone actually being cited for it.

Ease down there hoss.

When I was installing full hydro in my samurai, I had people lining up telling me it would make the rig not able to get a sticker. Buddy of mine had the same issue. Saying its not road legal because if the engine cuts out you cannot control the vehicle. Either way, we buggied out or rigs so they never got a sticker anyways. But yea, that's why I said "I don't think". Its just what I was told. Just something to consider before you go ahead and go through with it.

 

['84 Bronco II]

Ease down there hoss.

When I was installing full hydro in my samurai, I had people lining up telling me it would make the rig not able to get a sticker. Buddy of mine had the same issue. Saying its not road legal because if the engine cuts out you cannot control the vehicle. Either way, we buggied out or rigs so they never got a sticker anyways. But yea, that's why I said "I don't think". Its just what I was told. Just something to consider before you go ahead and go through with it.

It's nothing personal, but just because it is "what you were told" doesn't mean you should continue perpetuating urban legends. There was some discussion about this in the TP, but the illegality of bead locks and full hydraulic steering are some of the biggest misconceptions in the wheeling community. In fact there have been bounties put out on the old site for someone to come forth with an actual statute from somewhere saying these things were illegal, or evidence of someone having been cited. As far as I know, no one was ever able to come up with either, and the bounties were never paid out.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

For one, its not street legal I don't think. Perhaps that depends on location. Reason being is you lose all steering capabilities if your engine shuts off.

Second, the no return to neutral would throw me all off.

None of this is true

 

[dnsfailure]

It's nothing personal, but just because it is "what you were told" doesn't mean you should continue perpetuating urban legends. There was some discussion about this in the TP, but the illegality of bead locks and full hydraulic steering are some of the biggest misconceptions in the wheeling community. In fact there have been bounties put out on the old site for someone to come forth with an actual statute from somewhere saying these things were illegal, or evidence of someone having been cited. As far as I know, no one was ever able to come up with either, and the bounties were never paid out.

does "welded steering linkages" fall into that category as well?

 

[woods]

It's nothing personal, but just because it is "what you were told" doesn't mean you should continue perpetuating urban legends. There was some discussion about this in the TP, but the illegality of bead locks and full hydraulic steering are some of the biggest misconceptions in the wheeling community. In fact there have been bounties put out on the old site for someone to come forth with an actual statute from somewhere saying these things were illegal, or evidence of someone having been cited. As far as I know, no one was ever able to come up with either, and the bounties were never paid out.

Huh. Did not know it was that hot of a topic. I had people hollering at me about it too.

None of this is true

Apparently not. I stand corrected. I was just going off what I had been told in the past.

 

[2big bronco]

For one, its not street legal I don't think. Perhaps that depends on location. Reason being is you lose all steering capabilities if your engine shuts off.

Second, the no return to neutral would throw me all off.

1- never seen the "law" produced

2- mine steers with the engine off

3- mine returns to center.


Do you have proof to back any of your claims or are you just spewing incorrect information?



With that said my truck is driveable but I wouldnt trust anyone else to get in it and not kill a bus load of nuns. I vote steering box with assist.

 

[dnsfailure]

I would think any type of steering would somewhat want to return to center while driving, no types of steering actively power themselves to the center, do they?

 

[woods]

1- never seen the "law" produced

2- mine steers with the engine off

3- mine returns to center.


Do you have proof to back any of your claims or are you just spewing incorrect information?



With that said my truck is driveable but I wouldnt trust anyone else to get in it and not kill a bus load of nuns. I vote steering box with assist.

Take a few steps back and read some of my follow up posts. Also in my post I said "I think". Meaning, not 100% sure. Hate to see the guy go full hydro, and then not be able to get a sticker. Merely suggesting he check out the laws read. Jesus. Have a beer or something.

My rig didn't steer with the engine off.

Mine also did not return to center.

I was running a PSC pump and a TSC single sided ram, so perhaps that was the cause not going back to neutral.

 

[woods]

I would think any type of steering would somewhat want to return to center while driving, no types of steering actively power themselves to the center, do they?

My Samurai did not. You turned the wheel, and it stayed there. There were some times I had to drive a half a mile or so on the roads to the trail, and it was freaky as hell. It was also a single sided ram, so perhaps that was the cause. Do the double sided return to neutral? All the guys I wheeled with had single sided.

 

[YotaAtieToo]

There are different types of valves, some do not respond to outside forces (no reactive) and generally drive worse.

Return to center has more to do with alignment than the hydro steering iirc.

I've had 3 different full hydro set ups, all single ended (which is supposedly worse) and 2/3 were OK on the street.

I'd really like to try the servo steering at some point

 

[90supra]

My 4runner is set up with a single sided ram. I believe it is all psc parts (bought not built life). I'm pretty comfortable driving it and in Moab a couple weeks ago didn't mind cruising 60-65. Would I have the keys off to anyone and let them go? NO. Am I worried about handing the keys to my wife? Also no. It drives nicely overall. I wouldn't want to drive it daily or on long drives

 

[Kowboy]

How bad of idea is it to run full hydro in a jeep that will see lots of street driving and highway driving.

HUGE dif'rence 'tween street drivin' and highway drivin' sir.

I drove my full-hydro FJ-40 buggy on the street and short drives to trailheads like in Moab. I got pretty good at keepin' 'er sorta 'tween the lines up to 'bout 50 mph or so. No way would I let anyone else try it tho. So OK for street drivin' ... sorta.

Highway ... I say 'no' based on my experiences. I got the hydro-assist on my JK and I've hit 120 on the highway. At that point, I'm worried 'bout the 40" tires blowin' to hell ... but still no concerns 'bout the steerin'.

In my opinion, full-hydro is best left off the highway. But then again, I still believe both full-hydro steerin' AND beadlocks are illegal for street use.

Carry on ...

 

['84 Bronco II]

I would think any type of steering would somewhat want to return to center while driving, no types of steering actively power themselves to the center, do they?

No, that is not the case, it depends what kind of steering control unit you use, but you are correct that none of them normally automatically power back to center (although it would be possible to do, but really only useful in a rear steer application).

My rig didn't steer with the engine off.

Mine also did not return to center.

I was running a PSC pump and a TSC single sided ram, so perhaps that was the cause not going back to neutral.

For fucks sake, a lot of you guys need to go and read the BillaVista article I linked

Not all hydraulic steering systems are created equal. The driving characteristics are highly dependent on the components you use and how well they are matched to one another. You need/want to use a LOAD REACTING steering unit if you want to have steering that has feel and returns to center. If you use a non-load reacting steering unit, the wheels will stay pointed in whichever direction you leave them in and have no feel. Also, load sensing ≠ load reacting, and isn't something useful for our application. Of course, just like conventional steering, but even more so with load reactive fully hydraulic steering, you need a healthy amount of castor and proper wheel alignment to get good return to center characteristics. The pump and ram have nothing to do with that behavior, just how quick/slow your steering is and how much steering force you can put out

From the Billavista article:

Steering Unit Integral Valves

If you recall how the steering unit is in fact a combination of valve(s) and metering unit, it will not be a surprise that there are often (depending on manufacturer) a number of "optional" valving functions available on steering units. Most are not really required by us, except for one very important one - the Manual Steering Check Valve. Most, if not every steering unit I have ever read about that we might possibly use includes one of these. It is a small valve built in to the steering unit that allows the steering unit to act as a small hand operated pump (by turning the steering wheel), providing limited manual steering, should the engine, pump or a belt quit. In my experience, the result is that the steering operates almost identically to normal automotive Saginaw power steering with no power. It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to manually turn 38" tires at low pressure in a spooled and slugged front axle while sitting still with the engine off. However, with, say, a black YJ belonging to a good friend towing you along at a reasonable clip, it's actually quite steerable. I know this, because the first day I was testing my hydro steering I fried an alternator and a coil

Load Reaction

THIS is the hydraulic circuit feature that is of interest to us. Load Reaction is the infamous "return to center" feature. Note however, that this feature only allows external forces on the wheels to cause a reaction in the steering wheel. That is, it is only permitting the transfer of force, not actually creating it. This means, how well the steered wheels will return to center after a turn will still very much be a factor of steering geometry / alignment - most notable caster. Without sufficient castor or proper geometry, even with a Load Reaction steering unit, "return to center" and road feel can still be very poor. On the other hand, with good geometry and alignment, and a Load Reaction steering unit, road feel and return to center can be excellent.

Note: Some manufacturers refer to these functions as "reversing" and "non-reversing."

It sounds like you bought the wrong steering unit for our application (non-load reactive, and seemingly no manual steering check valve).

There are different types of valves, some do not respond to outside forces (no reactive) and generally drive worse.

Return to center has more to do with alignment than the hydro steering iirc.

I've had 3 different full hydro set ups, all single ended (which is supposedly worse) and 2/3 were OK on the street.

I'd really like to try the servo steering at some point

This guy gets it. If you get an open center, load-reactive steering unit, and design your system with ~4 turns lock to lock (3 turns at the quickest) and get enough pump capacity to go lock to lock in ~1-1.5s, you should have a system that is quite streetable.

 

[MtnYota]

My double ended ram drives fine on the street. The bias swamper are more of a hazard than the steering.

 

[67StingrayJ]

I would think any type of steering would somewhat want to return to center while driving, no types of steering actively power themselves to the center, do they?

isn't that the point of caster?

 

[RustyC]

I say no to full hydro due to the 37" tire size. I would advise to do assist.
Full hydro is the gateway mod into having a trailer queen.

 

[CasterTroy]

I say no to full hydro due to the 37" tire size. I would advise to do assist.
Full hydro is the gateway mod into having a trailer queen.

This
Mine does not self center (was my choice since it IS a trailer queen and I prefer it stay where I turn it on the trail).
If the 37's are aired up it's sketch to drive over 35 on the road. But if aired down it behaves much better. My buddy Clay has virtually identical setup in his TJ (same axle, same tire, nearly same wheelbase) but he has assist and it's MUCH more well behaved on the street. He does NOT want a trailer queen and likes to take his kids out in the Jeep in the warmer months.


My steering: