Fuel pickups....what's the hotness today

[CarterKraft]

Mount a Wema S3 sender with this flange in the flat area under the filler neck?

HFL Tank Fitting Flange

The Wema HFL Tank Fitting Flange is supplied as a flange kit – complete with gasket, inner ring and a set of stainless.

wema.co.uk

S3 Fuel and Water Sender

SENDER IDENTIFICATION CHART Senders are available in a series of lengths from 150mm - 1600mm. There are two standard.

wema.co.uk

 

[Ghetto Fab.]

I had considered doing a sight glass on a fuel cell also. Put it on the front of the cell someplace so all you have to do is turn around to look at it and instantly know how full the cell is. It does add more connections and failure points, but I think with some planning the failures could be minimized.

 

[arse_sidewards]

I had considered doing a sight glass on a fuel cell also. Put it on the front of the cell someplace so all you have to do is turn around to look at it and instantly know how full the cell is. It does add more connections and failure points, but I think with some planning the failures could be minimized.

Get some 1"+ thick glass and build a frame for it?

Or build a shield around the normal sight glass like the valve stem guard on ag rims.

Edit: Fuck, used portholes in small-ish sizes are cheap. Use one of them.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Double posting from my build thread, because I forget where I posted when going back later.
Finally decided on how to know the tank level while filling without overfilling.
After seeing a number of poly tanks with bulkheads down low for gravity pickups I figured it must be possible. At work, I put bulkheads in sulfuric acid tanks and that is way scarier than fuel, it doesn't even need to be ignited to melt your face off.
So I figured it would be fine if done correctly. I used #6 XRP fittings and bulkhead made in the USA. Many off road shops and some racers sell and use the Nylon washers or the Parker Stat-O-Seals , XRP sells them as well and I installed them the first time and then got to wondering what material they are, which is Nitrile which is fuel resistant but not ethanol resistant and if you live in CA then you are hosed. So I decided to pull the tank out and apart for the hundredth time and make my own Stat O Seals with Viton o-rings and SS washers/shims, both of which are happy sitting in ethanol all day. #6 Threads are right around 9/16" and that size o-ring is 9/16" ID and 3/4" OD. I luckily had a 3/4" SS shim pack from my hording supplies that had washers of varying thickness and used the one that was just thinner than the o-ring. Used Gasoila thread sealant that's rated for 20% ethanol. Used some star washers and another nut to double jamb it. Use some 3/8"ID x 1/2"OD Teflon tube and 157 OET SS crimp clamps. Also changed out the fill hose from PVC clear to some Napa fuel fill hose NBH1045 since I don't need to see through it. Napa lists it at Nitrile lined, but also says its suitable for use with gasoline, gasohol blends of ethanol, methanol, ethers, diesel and biodiesel to B20, so it should be good for CA fuel.

 

[Grendel]

So we went from fuel pick ups to sight glass?

Meh.

 

[94toytruck]

Sight tube on my fuel cell, I'll pass.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

So we went from fuel pick ups to sight glass?

Meh.

Not so much about the sight tube as it is about plumbing. There is a phobia about only being able to pickup from the top of the tank. I see no reason that a pickup can not come in from the side or bottom of a tank if done correctly. On an external pump not having to lift the fuel to the top matters. That's why in tank pumps have an easier life pulling from the bottom of the tank.

 

[CarterKraft]

Not so much about the sight tube as it is about plumbing. There is a phobia about only being able to pickup from the top of the tank. I see no reason that a pickup can not come in from the side or bottom of a tank if done correctly. On an external pump not having to lift the fuel to the top matters. That's why in tank pumps have an easier life pulling from the bottom of the tank.

Diesel truck sumps?

FASS STK-5500BO "No Drop" Fuel Tank Sump (Bowl Only)

Check out the deal on FASS STK-5500BO "No Drop" Fuel Tank Sump (Bowl Only) at XDP

www.xtremediesel.com

 

[aczlan]

Not so much about the sight tube as it is about plumbing. There is a phobia about only being able to pickup from the top of the tank. I see no reason that a pickup can not come in from the side or bottom of a tank if done correctly. On an external pump not having to lift the fuel to the top matters. That's why in tank pumps have an easier life pulling from the bottom of the tank.

The physical height of the pump in relation to the bottom of the tank will make more difference and how hard pump has to work to move fuel than pulling out of the top or the bottom IMO.
If the external pump is physically located at the same level (or lower) than the bottom of the tank, the friction losses (due to the extra length of pipe and elbows) will be the ONLY difference in the amount of suction needed between a pump that is plumbed out of the top of the tank and one plumbed out of the bottom of the tank (once the lines are full of fuel and it can siphon).
Same with an in tank pump vs an external pump sitting at or below the bottom of the tank.

Aaron Z

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

Not sure anyone wants or needs to do this but a cell with the large oval opening could have a drop in external pump assembly. It would look like a top hat turned upside down. Pick up is low almost at the bottom of the cell and the external pump or pumps could sit in the dry open area inside the cell. Lower head lift, external pump, easier access to pumps.

 

[gt1guy]

Not so much about the sight tube as it is about plumbing. There is a phobia about only being able to pickup from the top of the tank. I see no reason that a pickup can not come in from the side or bottom of a tank if done correctly. On an external pump not having to lift the fuel to the top matters. That's why in tank pumps have an easier life pulling from the bottom of the tank.

I think that phobia comes from racing with a real fuel cell and the fact that in a bad wreck it's generally the sides and the bottom of cell that takes the damage and abuse. It's is the low hanging fruit compared to the top.

A true fuel cell with a bladder inside, you would never want to add fittings in the sides or bottom because that bladder has to be able to deform when the can gets smashed in a wreck. Any kind of fitting other than on top would get ripped out and .......fire.

A fuel tank like you have, without a bladder, as long as it is well secured/protected and you don't plan on having it torpedoed by another car at 100mph, I wouldn't think twice about putting fittings where ever you want.

There's a lot of trucks on the road with tanks in the bed with fittings at the bottom.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I think that phobia comes from racing with a real fuel cell and the fact that in a bad wreck it's generally the sides and the bottom of cell that takes the damage and abuse. It's is the low hanging fruit compared to the top.

A true fuel cell with a bladder inside, you would never want to add fittings in the sides or bottom because that bladder has to be able to deform when the can gets smashed in a wreck. Any kind of fitting other than on top would get ripped out and .......fire.

A fuel tank like you have, without a bladder, as long as it is well secured/protected and you don't plan on having it torpedoed by another car at 100mph, I wouldn't think twice about putting fittings where ever you want.

There's a lot of trucks on the road with tanks in the bed with fittings at the bottom.

That a good point to bring up. Tanks vs cell vs hard bladder vs flexible bladder. The goat built tank is a rotomold hard tank that can have a metal cover put around it and used for racing or pass tech. Other companies use a hard tank with a metal cover and call it a fuel cell, and I believe a number of Ultra4 teams use them. These can have bulkhead fittings that pass through both the metal and plastic and sandwich them together. Then you have flexible bladders inside of a metal tank, these being more high end with molded ports at the top fill plate area.
I agree a soft bladder with ports across its area is asking for a tear.
I think some of the hard plastic tanks with metal covers will have a metal cutout near the bulkhead so the two materials are not fighting each other at the ports.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Bump. Hey HYDRODYNAMIC I was checking out this thread and your build for more info on the plumbing of those steel topped 05+ 1500 pumps. The fuel outlet to the fuel rail makes sense, the large diameter hose on the top cap being the primary vent of that rollover valve makes sense as well. Do you need to plumb the 3rd fitting (next to the large vent fitting on that top cap) to anything for the fancy rollover valve to function properly? Or did you cap it off?

This is the plumbing post I saw in your build thread, wasn't sure if that brass fitting was a permanent cap indicating the 3rd is unused? (with most of the pics cut out except the one in question)-

Fuel lines are in. 1/2” SS hardline from the rear to the front under the floorboards with rigid tube mounts and Swagelok fittings. SS braided hose from the cell to the 1/4 turn safety shut off valve and SS braided hose up to the fuel rail with a high temp silicone tube/shield. The in tank pump has a high tech vent/rollover valve so I opted for a shutoff valve and filter vent vs. running a line around the tank, might add a hose and drop the filter down lower if I find some fuel works it’s way out during fueling.

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I believe the brass compression cap is 5/16 or 3/8. That port is just another vent. Same source as the bigger main vent.
An adapter that can be reused would be better for replacement. Brass works fine and is cheap but once crimped you can not transfer to the new pump.

 

[budget76]

didn't read thru the thread, but an option that exists is these adapters to run a OEM GM pump setup in whatever tank you want. 3 different pump lengths exist to choose the right one

weld in or clamp on. I'm running clamp on for my restomod build because that was easier

edit: they have a Al option too

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Thanks hydro, good stuff.

didn't read thru the thread, but an option that exists is these adapters to run a OEM GM pump setup in whatever tank you want. 3 different pump lengths exist to choose the right one

weld in or clamp on. I'm running clamp on for my restomod build because that was easier

edit: they have a Al option too

I've got the steel weld in version on the right of this pic on the way to me as we speak, plan to weld it into a CJ5 gas tank so I can use one of these modern pumps for the EFI system. I'll report back with how I like it

 

[AgitatedPancake]

So I should have the mounting ring tomorrow, but I got a cheap pump for experimenting, and that came in today. Interesting enough, it has differences from Hydro's example on page two (probably for the worse, because cheap). It's listed for 2004-2007 Silverado 1500s, and has the same metal top hat with same line layout and electrical connections so they look interchangeable as expected, just has internal differences.

Unfortunately I'm not sure I can disassemble it non destructively due to one of the differences being a brass slug pressed into one of the plastic tubes so I'm not sure if I'll be able to get good comparable photos for the sake of documentation. But I've got some bullet points of the differences and general notes:

-The rollover valve is just a plastic mass on a lightweight spring, with a rubber flap to actually make the seal when engaged. Doesn't seem to be a fancy device, makes me wonder if it's susceptible to staying shut after engaging like Hydro noted in his posts

-The actual pump itself within the main unit has two outputs,
------The primary that goes to the filter and then the regulator which sends fuel out to the high pressure output, and returns somewhere into the can (can't tell because can't disassemble, but doesn't look to be the venturi circuit)
------But then the pump itself also has a very small (like 3/16"?) secondary output that looks to directly feed the venturi that draws additional fuel into the can. This small line has a brass slug on the end that is pressed into the plastic, which is currently keeping me from disassembling for fear of damage.

-Only one flapper valve on the bottom of the can, I could see the second being valuable as a redundancy measure if one ever gets stuck shut from varnish

-From what I can see inside the bottom of the can while it's still assembled, the filter sock looks different, probably lower quality, than Hydros example (and what I'm used to).

-Fuel sender is 40 ohms full and 250 ohms empty

-Tank depth range while sitting on a table to the bottom of the mounting flange is 14" extended and ~11.5" compressed. It could compress more but the rollover valve just hits the corner of the fuel regulator, which is a bummer because I was hoping to install it in an ~11" tank so we'll see what I do.

Edit - Here are some pics of what looks like my exact unit from a different listing, because mine looks different than the pics of what I ordered . Notice the different rollover valve and sideways regulator

Interesting serrations around the base, looks like to baffle slosh around the pickup areas under there

 

[baldduck1974]

Son bought a moto built tank, set for a TJ sending unit install it and Tj sender with pump feeding a 22re.

 

[baldduck1974]

So I should have the mounting ring tomorrow, but I got a cheap pump for experimenting, and that came in today. Interesting enough, it has differences from Hydro's example on page two (probably for the worse, because cheap). It's listed for 2004-2007 Silverado 1500s, and has the same metal top hat with same line layout and electrical connections so they look interchangeable as expected, just has internal differences.

Unfortunately I'm not sure I can disassemble it non destructively due to one of the differences being a brass slug pressed into one of the plastic tubes so I'm not sure if I'll be able to get good comparable photos for the sake of documentation. But I've got some bullet points of the differences and general notes:

-The rollover valve is just a plastic mass on a lightweight spring, with a rubber flap to actually make the seal when engaged. Doesn't seem to be a fancy device, makes me wonder if it's susceptible to staying shut after engaging like Hydro noted in his posts

-The actual pump itself within the main unit has two outputs,
------The primary that goes to the filter and then the regulator which sends fuel out to the high pressure output, and returns somewhere into the can (can't tell because can't disassemble, but doesn't look to be the venturi circuit)
------But then the pump itself also has a very small (like 3/16"?) secondary output that looks to directly feed the venturi that draws additional fuel into the can. This small line has a brass slug on the end that is pressed into the plastic, which is currently keeping me from disassembling for fear of damage.

-Only one flapper valve on the bottom of the can, I could see the second being valuable as a redundancy measure if one ever gets stuck shut from varnish

-From what I can see inside the bottom of the can while it's still assembled, the filter sock looks different, probably lower quality, than Hydros example (and what I'm used to).

-Fuel sender is 40 ohms full and 250 ohms empty

-Tank depth range while sitting on a table to the bottom of the mounting flange is 14" extended and ~11.5" compressed. It could compress more but the rollover valve just hits the corner of the fuel regulator, which is a bummer because I was hoping to install it in an ~11" tank so we'll see what I do.

Edit - Here are some pics of what looks like my exact unit from a different listing, because mine looks different than the pics of what I ordered . Notice the different rollover valve and sideways regulator

Interesting serrations around the base, looks like to baffle slosh around the pickup areas under there

Not an answer to your exact question, but mod it to fit your needs,

 

[AgitatedPancake]

Not an answer to your exact question, but mod it to fit your needs,

I could, but the entire thing being an unmodified unit available at any parts store has huge appeal to me which is why I'm a bit torn on how I'm going to tackle it

 

[HYDRODYNAMIC]

I could, but the entire thing being an unmodified unit available at any parts store has huge appeal to me which is why I'm a bit torn on how I'm going to tackle it

This right here. Try not to modify it anymore than what you can do on the trail with a rock and a log.
I have come to terms that blocking off the second vent port with brass compression fittings means if I can not find 5/16 compression fittings then I have to whittle a wood plug and smash it tight with a rock. At which point I will only care about getting my junk back on the trailer and going home.

 

[SLOWPOKE693]

This right here. Try not to modify it anymore than what you can do on the trail with a rock and a log.
I have come to terms that blocking off the second vent port with brass compression fittings means if I can not find 5/16 compression fittings then I have to whittle a wood plug and smash it tight with a rock. At which point I will only care about getting my junk back on the trailer and going home.

You don't carry a spare one?

 

[AgitatedPancake]

This right here. Try not to modify it anymore than what you can do on the trail with a rock and a log.
I have come to terms that blocking off the second vent port with brass compression fittings means if I can not find 5/16 compression fittings then I have to whittle a wood plug and smash it tight with a rock. At which point I will only care about getting my junk back on the trailer and going home.

Yeah I didn't used to put enough value in that. My big WJ is a complete frankenstein hodgepodge of modified parts, and man it sucks to maintain years down the road. These days, I strive for absolutely as much off the shelf stuff as I can manage. Regarding that 5/16" vent line, initial tinkering looks like a regular 5/16" quick disconnect fuel line works, so I put one of the AN adapters on with an AN cap. That leaves it readily interchangeable for future pump replacements.

I just got back from the local Napa, and have some interesting observations. The fuel pump for the same year 1500 express vans (05-07ish?) look identical to the truck pump I have, but the top cap is mounted 180* from the canister itself. What that means, is the van pump can compress to a minimum height of around 9.5" versus the 11.5" on my truck pump (and probably around 11" for Hydro's version of the truck pump). So the van pump will work for my CJ tank. I'm going to see if I can pull the rods out of the top cap on my pump so I can flip it around and turn it into a van pump, but if not I'll just concede and get an actual van pump. Yes I'm modfying it, but I'm just converting it from an off the shelf truck pump to an off the shelf van pump so it doesn't concern me as far as future swappability is concerned

 

[baldduck1974]

I could, but the entire thing being an unmodified unit available at any parts store has huge appeal to me which is why I'm a bit torn on how I'm going to tackle i

With the way we did it the only thing modified is the regulator which can be replaced if a future need arises.

 

[baldduck1974]

With the way we did it the only thing modified is the regulator which can be replaced if a future need arises.

Sorry, which isnt needed in this application.

 

[AgitatedPancake]

With the way we did it the only thing modified is the regulator which can be replaced if a future need arises.

Yeah definitely understood, and don't get me wrong I'm not crapping on your solution, it looks pretty slick tbh. Just sharing where my head is at for my personal projects

So I conceded and grabbed the express van pump this afternoon instead of modifying the truck pump, should be able to test fit it tomorrow but it's looking good. It also has the same construction as Hydros, versus the odd version I got for the truck. Also got the Range Industries pump mounting ring in today, looks great and install went well, I'm plenty happy with it so far

 

[budget76]

I could, but the entire thing being an unmodified unit available at any parts store has huge appeal to me which is why I'm a bit torn on how I'm going to tackle it

you saw this on the site, right? maybe you need the van one?

I had to go the middle option and I'm hoping it fits in the shallow 60's OEM tank

 

[AgitatedPancake]

you saw this on the site, right? maybe you need the van one?

I had to go the middle option and I'm hoping it fits in the shallow 60's OEM tank

Yep yep, the van one is what I picked up in the last few posts. Though I also found out those numbers should be taken with a grain of salt depending on which construction method/configuration of pump you end up with. The truck pump I started with ended up with a range of around 11.75"-14", though one constructed like hydros back on the 2nd page can probably compress down to around that 11" number or more. But then the van pump I grabbed can actually hit like 9.75"-14" or so which is rad and will be no prob for the CJ tank. The high pressure corrugated line bends get a bit preloaded at max compression but doesn't look like the end of the world.

 

[Wuz-A-zuk]

Will that clamp style ring work on plastic tanks as well? Something like the jazz 10 gallon.

 

[budget76]

Will that clamp style ring work on plastic tanks as well? Something like the jazz 10 gallon.

i don't see why not. I have it in my hands. it's basically a c-shaped ring for the inside so you can actually get it into the hole, a gasket, and a full ring on the outside. as long as you've got a flat spot, I'm pretty sure it'd work with any material