Facebook, Columbus day, and no hope for humanity

[YJLOPES]

Is it possible that 2 things can be true?

It's pretty cool he sailed where he did when he did it.

It's also pretty horrible what he did to folks when he got there.

 

[subybaja]

I would be perfectly happy with doing away with Columbus day until people started trying to make it indigenous peoples day. They lost, you don't get to celebrate losers (or so the left says about the civil war ).

I forget some of the details, but the one that stuck with me was something along the lines of him demanding more gold from the tribe leader, and he took the leader's daughter as a collateral. After that some kind of disagreement happened when there was no gold and he cut off one of her hands or some fawked up thing.

It all got written about by Columbus and those he traveled with. Some in journals and some in letters back to Spain. Pretty gnarly.

To me there's a big disconnect in American folk lore about who Columbus really was and what we Americans believe him to be. Almost like a tall tale like Paul Bunyan or John Henry. The Christopher Columbus of American lore is worth celebrating for that adventurous spirit of exploration that we all value. The real man, pretty despicable.

Sorry for all the wordy text. I'm a bit of a history nerd.

But, man of his times. Yes he sucked, but most did around then. He wasn't sending slaves home to people who didn't want them.

And Washington owned slaves, etc... What will they hold us up to ridicule for in 400 years? Eating meat? Enslaving horses?

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Is it possible that 2 things can be true?

It's pretty cool he sailed where he did when he did it.

It's also pretty horrible what he did to folks when he got there.

Sure it is. He's responsible for kicking off "the age of exploration".

Personally, Ithink there are other more relevant historical figures to the United States worthy of a federal holiday. Columbus just had the benefit of a group that decided he was worth lobbying for.

 

[DMG]

Yesterday during Columbus Day, I made the mistake of going on facebook. The bullshit that flitted through my feed made me realize us Americans are dumbasses. Just like everything else, Columbus day got politicized. I went to college, and live in California, so I have an intimate understanding of the left's hate for Christopher Columbus. Yes, he did horrible things to the natives he encountered. Yes, he wanted money and slaves. No, he probably never set foot on the north American continent. I also saw another disturbing trend- my right leaning friends posting memes in support of Christopher Columbus. It seemed like a knee jerk reaction that just because the left said one thing, it was their sworn duty to say the opposite. This is where I realized we're doomed: If people are willing to parrot shit that is just plain wrong just to distance themselves from the other end of the political spectrum, we've got trouble. News flash- it's ok for the other side to be right sometimes. If a liberal says water is wet, it's ok to agree with that statement, and in fact makes you and your cause look less credible when you instantly deny something that is proven to be true.

A little history on Columbus day: We have it because the Knights of Columbus(A catholic charity organization) lobbied the federal government really hard to make Columbus day a national holiday. Why did they do this? Because they wanted to establish that Catholicism and America went hand in hand as far back as all the other religions that made their way to America, and Columbus was a good catholic symbol. There was no other merit behind it other than that. They made the rest up, or tweaked it to fit their lobbying needs.

I'm here to say yeah, Columbus sucked. I'm also here to say that people can cry all they want, but they're probably not going to get that federal holiday changed until they lobby as hard as the Knights of Columbus did.

/rant

Columbus Day came about in part because of multiple lynchings of Italians. They were trying to reduce the stigma of being greasy wops.

Btw, one reason conservatives support Columbus Day is because the progressives are taking holidays from white historical figures and giving them to minorities. After we lost Lincoln and Washington’s birthdays for MLK day, MLK became the only American with his own holiday. Yet his contributions are nothing compared to Washington and Lincoln.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Columbus Day came about in part because of multiple lynchings of Italians. They were trying to reduce the stigma of being greasy wops.

Btw, one reason conservatives support Columbus Day is because the progressives are taking holidays from white historical figures and giving them to minorities. After we lost Lincoln and Washington’s birthdays for MLK day, MLK became the only American with his own holiday. Yet his contributions are nothing compared to Washington and Lincoln.

Fair enough. I'd trade Columbus day for a Lewis and Clark day if I were running the show.

 

[DMG]

Fair enough. I'd trade Columbus day for a Lewis and Clark day if I were running the show.

So would I.

Columbus was a POS but he was also a man of his time. Native tribes had slaves, burned people alive and flayed them for fun. All done to other tribes, before we arrived on the continent. The colonizers were no better but had better technology.

Lewis and Clark were ahead of their time in many ways and tried to work with the natives which is part of the reason they survived.

 

[det107]

After we lost Lincoln and Washington’s birthdays for MLK day, MLK became the only American with his own holiday. Yet his contributions are nothing compared to Washington and Lincoln.

Pretty sure Lincoln's & Washington's Bdays are still holidays here, at least in NY.. And both were born here in America (yeah, George was a "British subject, later on that").

One of MLK's contribution is that it is a holiday too-

 

[Roc Doc]

Sure it is. He's responsible for kicking off "the age of exploration".

Personally, Ithink there are other more relevant historical figures to the United States worthy of a federal holiday. Columbus just had the benefit of a group that decided he was worth lobbying for.

The Chinese did the same in the East Pacific some 100 years earlier.

 

[DMG]

Pretty sure Lincoln's & Washington's Bdays are still holidays here, at least in NY.. And both were born here in America (yeah, George was a "British subject, later on that").

One of MLK's contribution is that it is a holiday too-

No, the federal holiday called Presidents’ Day now covers Lincoln and Washington. No new holiday was created for MLK. They combined the aforementioned presidents to one holiday and gave him one of their days.

 

[Norm]

Conquest is part the reason our species survives, the weakest die off and the strongest propagate. It's never fun being a looser. Wars, conquest, and genocide are all part of the human condition that have and will always happen.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

No, the federal holiday called Presidents’ Day now covers Lincoln and Washington. No new holiday was created for MLK. They combined the aforementioned presidents to one holiday and gave him one of their days.

yeah, I remember getting each president's birthday off individually back in elementary school in the 80's and being super pissed off as a 4th grader or so when my school decided to instead adhere to the federal holiday.

 

[det107]

No, the federal holiday called Presidents’ Day now covers Lincoln and Washington. No new holiday was created for MLK.

MLK holiday is in January. Washington's Bday (or President's Day) is in February. Lincoln's Bday is a holiday for union & gooberment workers-

Edit~ for NY

 

[welndmn]

I'm here to say yeah, Columbus sucked. I'm also here to say that people can cry all they want, but they're probably not going to get that federal holiday changed until they lobby as hard as the Knights of Columbus did.

/rant

but, I never understood why we care now? EVERYONE is history once they found someone that was not from their village, Killed/raped/enslaved a foreigner and now we try to erase it, and pretend it never happened. Yes, we all did bad things in early human history, that is why we need to always talk about what happened.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

MLK holiday is in January. Washington's Bday (or President's Day) is in February. Lincoln's Bday is a holiday for union & gooberment workers-

Edit~ for NY

California gooberment checking in. Yep. We also don't get Columbus day, but we do get "Native American day" on September 27th.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

but, I never understood why we care now? EVERYONE is history once they found someone that was not from their village, Killed/raped/enslaved a foreigner and now we try to erase it, and pretend it never happened. Yes, we all did bad things in early human history, that is why we need to always talk about what happened.

I dunno. But the holiday was created in 1937 and Columbus died in 1506, so apparently politicians and bureaucrats can't leave well enough alone.

Personally I think it's important to teach kids in school that EVERYONE in history Killed/raped/enslaved a foreigner so they're not surprised by human nature when they get older. Don't gloss it over.

 

[det107]

Personally I think it's important to teach kids in school that EVERYONE in history Killed/raped/enslaved a foreigner so they're not surprised by human nature when they get older.

Don't forget the natives too.

Don't gloss it over.

I know right? We were taught in class that the explorers/crew were very brave for sailing around (god forbid that they fell off the flat edge of earth ) and planting a flag to claim the land and friendly to whomever was nearby. They were the "pioneers"-

 

[Ghetto Fab.]

Its the same bullshit my dad spews about how the white man took the land from the indians and we should give it all back, but has yet to give up his nice house. Yeah, I get it. It wasn't a good time in history and mistakes were made with what limited knowledge and thought processes they had back then. Maybe the take away is that we have learned and moved onto better things as a society?

The hawaiian thing after the Lahaina fire cracks me up. People talking about how the islands were taken away from the natives and the US needs to leave and them back. If the US hadn't taken control of those islands they'd all be speaking japanese or chinese right now, and their culture would be gone. At least the white people have supported and somewhat revere the hawaiian culture.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Don't forget the natives too.

In middle school we did a unit on the Incas, Mayans, and Aztecs. Maybe I got lucky and my school was good, but the bloody history of all of them was covered. Sacrifices, wars, the fawked up version of soccer/basket ball they played that broke bones and killed people, etc. It was pretty interesting.

That unit led right into the conquistadors showing up.

 

[Sandy Johnson]

Its the same bullshit my dad spews about how the white man took the land from the indians and we should give it all back, but has yet to give up his nice house.

Is it? It's one thing to make sure everyone knows an accurate version of history, it's a whole other thing to feel the need to "make it right" hundreds of years later.

This meme comes to mind:

 

[rockota]

I forget some of the details, but the one that stuck with me was something along the lines of him demanding more gold from the tribe leader, and he took the leader's daughter as a collateral. After that some kind of disagreement happened when there was no gold and he cut off one of her hands or some fawked up thing.

It all got written about by Columbus and those he traveled with. Some in journals and some in letters back to Spain. Pretty gnarly.

To me there's a big disconnect in American folk lore about who Columbus really was and what we Americans believe him to be. Almost like a tall tale like Paul Bunyan or John Henry. The Christopher Columbus of American lore is worth celebrating for that adventurous spirit of exploration that we all value. The real man, pretty despicable.

Sorry for all the wordy text. I'm a bit of a history nerd.

So people are upset about that or upset that someone other than government did it?

 

[Sandy Johnson]

So people are upset about that or upset that someone other than government did it?

I can't speak to what people are upset about because while I acknowledge that Columbus was not a good human, I'm also fine with the holiday.

My original point of this thread is that it's known, it happened, and if people want to whine about it, so be it. However, arguing with the whiners that it didn't actually happen just because it wasn't the correct political leaning side that said it makes everyone dumber and cheapens credibility.

 

[Slander]

Yesterday during Columbus Day, I made the mistake of going on facebook. The bullshit that flitted through my feed made me realize us Americans are dumbasses. Just like everything else, Columbus day got politicized. I went to college, and live in California, so I have an intimate understanding of the left's hate for Christopher Columbus. Yes, he did horrible things to the natives he encountered. Yes, he wanted money and slaves. No, he probably never set foot on the north American continent. I also saw another disturbing trend- my right leaning friends posting memes in support of Christopher Columbus. It seemed like a knee jerk reaction that just because the left said one thing, it was their sworn duty to say the opposite. This is where I realized we're doomed: If people are willing to parrot shit that is just plain wrong just to distance themselves from the other end of the political spectrum, we've got trouble. News flash- it's ok for the other side to be right sometimes. If a liberal says water is wet, it's ok to agree with that statement, and in fact makes you and your cause look less credible when you instantly deny something that is proven to be true.

A little history on Columbus day: We have it because the Knights of Columbus(A catholic charity organization) lobbied the federal government really hard to make Columbus day a national holiday. Why did they do this? Because they wanted to establish that Catholicism and America went hand in hand as far back as all the other religions that made their way to America, and Columbus was a good catholic symbol. There was no other merit behind it other than that. They made the rest up, or tweaked it to fit their lobbying needs.

I'm here to say yeah, Columbus sucked. I'm also here to say that people can cry all they want, but they're probably not going to get that federal holiday changed until they lobby as hard as the Knights of Columbus did.

/rant

You hit on the problem with modern society. Everything is so polarized/politicized and nuance has been removed from modern discourse. It's black or white, good or evil, right or wrong, no grey areas on anything. Social media feeds are only feeding that and segregating people out, where as you could probably have a reasonable discussion on opposing views with like 85% of the population, in person.

This is also the danger of calling people racist/commies/Nazis/homophobes whatever online for dumb shit. Then people just say fuck it, if your going to call me literally nazi for something stupid, then yes I apparently am, and now you have people potentially embracing that ideology. Same goes for if everything is supressed or taboo.

 

[DMG]

Is it? It's one thing to make sure everyone knows an accurate version of history, it's a whole other thing to feel the need to "make it right" hundreds of years later.

This meme comes to mind:

Meme is dumb. It is easy to hate a ruler, a monarch by birthright. Plus the Europeans were brutal colonizers for a thousand years. We were the colonies.

 

[SanDiegoCJ]

All of my public schooling was in California. I remember all that CA history of those nice Spanish Missionaries that build the El Camino Real, led by that saint of a saint Saint Junípero Serra Ferrer. This before we took California and most of the West from Mexico in 1848. We did pay them $15m for California, which I'm sure went right into the emperors pocket.

I'm all for teaching accurate history, not whitewashed or woked, but actual history backed by facts.

What most of the woke idiots that bash Columbus fail at is recognizing that Columbus lived 500+ years ago and to expect him to have acted according to the social standards of today is ludicrous.

 

[gt1guy]

Using modern views to judge the actions of the past is always foolish at best.

Columbus was a "modern" man back then and he saw the Indians living no better than wild animals. And people now think he should have seen them as equals. That's not how things worked back then. The strong took advantage of the weak.

There was no way their interaction was ever going to play out any different. I for one, am glad it went the way it did.

 

[Filthy McChevy]

No hope for humanity? Whatever.
I'll be lucky to make 20 more years anyway. Whiners deserve to be mocked too.

 

[Roc Doc]

What most of the woke idiots that bash Columbus fail at is recognizing that Columbus lived 500+ years ago and to expect him to have acted according to the social standards of today is ludicrous.

OTOH, church and state were much more intertwined back then, and I'm pretty sure his shenanigan's were against what the good book laid out. Both the man and his backers blatantly ignored such.

 

[Yota Up]

What will they hold us up to ridicule for in 400 years? Eating meat? Enslaving horses?

In the future AI will be sentient, and be afforded rights like people.
When that happens, they will look back at us all with hatred because we are currently enslaving AI to use for our own personal gains.

 

[billybob_81067]

I didn't even know it was Columbus day until I saw 17 memes about it in the meme thread. It's a bullshit made up holiday and the people butthurt about it on both sides are giant faggots. Shut the fuck up and do something productive with your life.

Christmas morning and the 4th of July after 8:00pm are the only true holidays. Everything else is just bullshit.

The only good thing about the made up holidays is it gives government employees a few days of not fucking up everything for the rest of us.

 

[SanDiegoCJ]

OTOH, church and state were much more intertwined back then, and I'm pretty sure his shenanigan's were against what the good book laid out. Both the man and his backers blatantly ignored such.

And the Spanish Inquisition ignored the bible just as much, but I doubt you'd get the church back then to agree.